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VIDEO ADDRESSING AMP METER ON CIRCUIT WITH NEGATIVE WATTAGE
YouTube - Ainslie circuit with negative wattage with amp meter in series
Do you honestly believe that all the circuit sees in a amp meter is a resistor like a shunt? None of the extra components in the meter are seen? I know for a fact that that all of these meters take away from the circuit because the output reduces anytime a scope (no matter which one) or even simple multimeter is hooked up to it. I can be taking readings with one scope, hook another up and the other scope can be seen to take away from the readings...hence the concept of SAMPLE.
Regardless of how the meters are built or intended to be use, they are all acting as capacitors for the circuit and absorb the potential - again, just like I said about putting a hand on the inductive resistor or mosfet and seeing the wavforms dampen. If you don't believe that, you need to really just do the experiments because what is "supposed to be" is usually not the case in real work experiments.
You constantly jump to conclusions that just because the meter measure like a shunt that is there it must be the same - well, I believe that is faulty logic...the "shunt" resistor doesn't have all the extra stuff hooked to it and that DOES make a difference.
I could appreciate you asking what the difference would be from a simple current sensing resistor rather than just jumping the gun and assuming there would be no difference without even doing the experiments is counter-productive.
Actually, that doesn't just apply to this circuit. I have seen over and over the last 10 years that even multimeters hooked to the battery cause them to charge slower. Remove them and hook them up when needing to take readings is the less invasive way to allow the circuit to do what it is supposed to do.
The 10A input is not why there was no current reading. Do you realize that the 10A reading gives amps down to 0.00X amps??? The only difference is that it has a fuse if you go beyond that on that setting. Many multimetes have different ranges to different decimals and again, I believe you missed the fact that on the 10A range it perfectly measured a LED at 17ma or 0.017a - so again, jumping to conclusions that on the 10A scale won't show anything. That scale and range for 10A will show down to 0.001 and that is enough to show that all that heat on the switching circuit is made at LESS THAN 0.001 amps.
And if there is a negative sign next to the zeroes, then what does that tell you? It is biased from towards negative obviously meaning negative current even though it won't show the #'s below 0.000 for current.
This comment of yours "Surely there is at least 1mA being used in this circuit" - that is not the question of someone inquiring into what is. It is a comment that suggests that the results must be in alignment with your preconceived ideas. What do you think negative current means? It is the opposite of positive current meaning that surely there isn't 1ma as the fluke multimeter showed...not 1ma. Not 0.001 but 0.000 and with a negative sign.
In any case, I have nothing to hide. However, I'm not going to partake in dog and pony show demonstrations that prove nothing but I'll do a quick vid on this just because...but from here on out, if I feel your questions are just wasting time and are not valid, I'm going to have to turn you down and you can belive that I just don't want to show the truth or whatever you want. I can't stop you or the skepti-crew from doing that either but if you really look at what has been posted, there actually is enough data to extrapolate what is happening.
Also your claim that I was playing with noise because of 36mv reading or whatever is actually a very malicious claim. Noise doesn't show as very consistant number of pulsed oscillation with consistent breaks in the middle. If you analyzed noise on a scope, you will see no such thing. Leave the scope connected to any circuit and then just turn it off. I guarantee, you will never find "ambient noise" or whatever you want to call it on the scope that looks like what I showed.
And I have no aversion to hooking meters to it. I can show 0.000 and -0.000. We can run the circuit at negative with an ampmeter but besides runing efficiency to a degree - point blank - if you had the experience some of us have had with these types of circuits, you would know it is an effort in futility and there is no analog or digital amp meter that will ever be as accurate as the scope.
Please realize, the amp meters do NOT measure current - that is because the conventional world doesn't even know what the heck current is and build their meters accordingly. They have to measure voltage drops across resistors in order to get a value that is 100% PURE SPECULATION that it must indicate such and such electron current.
I have no problem using voltage drops across a shunt (scope data logging) because that is acceptable to conventional science. And if they want to argue the results, they might as well burn their own house down.
Another point is that you mention some proof of a reversed current. In 10000 samples of data, every point where you see a negative value in the voltage column is CURRENT MOVING IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION.
Your comment on this: "Any averaging that is done by the meter is done after the sampling, so it has no effect on the current itself."
Well, again, what do you think a sample is?
Jibbguy said: "The circuit's performance will be affected by the action of observing it (sounds positively "Quantum" lol). "
Exactly! It DOES take potential away from the circuit and therefore reduces the current to a proportionate amount. At the low negattive wattages, to zero, to low positives, the difference isn't that much. But as the power goes up, the more, the effect from the meter is much more apparent.
Here is something you REALLY need to comprehend Poynt...
1. An amp meter can reflect the same current as the dc average on the scopes even though in the long run, it sucks potential away from charging. But nevertheless, it is a fact that the dc average over a shunt divided by the shunt ohms is the current that the scope calculates. If you look at the amp meter, it will be almost the same or identical. Probably a statistically insignificant deviation from each other meaning, in simple language, they are showing the same thing.
2. YOU have CLEARLY expressed your belief that what the amp meter shows on these digital meters negative or positive is a valid measurement. Therefore, IF THE SCOPE SHOWS THE SAME CURRENT AS THE AMP METER, that means YOU AGREE WITH THE SCOPE'S READINGS!
3. Because both scope and amp meter show the same current, you agree with them BOTH since the scope show the same current as the amp meter. The amp meter has a flaw in its slow averaging rate but when we're talking about just mv's below zero or above, it may be fine. But if we're talking about hundreds of milivolts to many volts, then I would not even entertain the idea of using an amp meter under those conditions. Anyway, all the NEGATIVE VOLTAGES OVER THE SHUNT ARE OBVIOUSLY TAKEN INTO CONSIDERATION to show an accurate measurement of current. A major difference between the scope and the multimeter is that the multimeter does not give you a read out of the negative voltage over the shunt - just the current that is assumed is calculated and it shows you the result. If the multimeter did not have the positive readings reduced by the NEGATIVE VOLTAGE AND CURRENT, there is no way in the world that it would show the same as the scope. This is really just common sense.
4. That means that when a multimeter shows you based on it's limited capability an average of 0.000 to -0.000 amps of current that the readings on the scope that do actually show you the voltage difference across the "shunt" with a net negative reading - IS ACTUALLY CORRECT!
5. Based on POINT #2, the fact that if you feel an amp meter is accurate, that means you must believe the scope is accurate if the scope shows the same current based on calculations that the meter shows. What this means is that you are forced to agree with POINT #4 that the negative current reading on the scope is correct if the amp meter doesn't show any evidence of positive current. 0.000 to -0.000 is ZERO or LESS THAN ZERO. That means NEGATIVE WATTAGE average. The CANNOT show a negative wattage value, it is just indicated with the -0.000 amps.
6. When you see the video, you will see the amp meter shows 0.000 to -0.000 and that means that there IS negative current moving "from" the battery anytime the MINUS SIGN - is before the 0.000 as in -0.000 and that corresponds to the average negative wattage on the scope. The scope data will of course show positives, which is indicated by the amp meter possibibly by the 0.000 (without minus sign) but lower than the 0.000 range (which I did on the fluke) but no matter what have never seen evidence of the positive wattage..just 0.000 or -0.000. But since the amp meters sample rate is so slow and there is really an average negative wattage in reality, the average it sill show is 0 to negative - and you have to now agree with this.
7. Simply, there is NO evidence of positive average wattage on the Tektronix or any amp meter I used. There is however AMPLE evidence of NEGATIVE WATTS on both the Tektronix TDS3054C AND the amp meter.
You said if there is indication of negative wattage on an amp meter then it is definitely negative wattage. Therefore, I hope you are true to your word. The amp meter will show 0.000 (no evidence of positive wattage but there could be some positive below 0.000 (fluke) or 0.00 on red meter but even the Tektronix data shows positive readings AND negative - but just net negative. AND the amp meter does show -0.000, which IS DEFINITELY negative wattage, just no sum expressed. Therefore, you must admit there is negative wattage running in the circuit and any minus sign at -0.000 on amp meter and NEGATIVE net sum on the massive samples from the Tektronix correlate with each other. THERE IS NEGATIVE/REVERSE CURRENT RUNNING ON THE CIRCUIT.
And just so you don't get away with it- your comment:
"All we are looking for with this test is a solid "0.001" or "-0.001" (or better)."
THE METER WON'T SHOW YOU A NEGATIVE -0.001 OR LESS!!! It will only show you -0.000. That indidates negative current!!! And you never see 0.001 or 0.00 you only see the ZEROES and -ZEROES!! That means negative wattage - get it and move on.
Originally posted by poynt99
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YouTube - Ainslie circuit with negative wattage with amp meter in series
Do you honestly believe that all the circuit sees in a amp meter is a resistor like a shunt? None of the extra components in the meter are seen? I know for a fact that that all of these meters take away from the circuit because the output reduces anytime a scope (no matter which one) or even simple multimeter is hooked up to it. I can be taking readings with one scope, hook another up and the other scope can be seen to take away from the readings...hence the concept of SAMPLE.
Regardless of how the meters are built or intended to be use, they are all acting as capacitors for the circuit and absorb the potential - again, just like I said about putting a hand on the inductive resistor or mosfet and seeing the wavforms dampen. If you don't believe that, you need to really just do the experiments because what is "supposed to be" is usually not the case in real work experiments.
You constantly jump to conclusions that just because the meter measure like a shunt that is there it must be the same - well, I believe that is faulty logic...the "shunt" resistor doesn't have all the extra stuff hooked to it and that DOES make a difference.
I could appreciate you asking what the difference would be from a simple current sensing resistor rather than just jumping the gun and assuming there would be no difference without even doing the experiments is counter-productive.
Actually, that doesn't just apply to this circuit. I have seen over and over the last 10 years that even multimeters hooked to the battery cause them to charge slower. Remove them and hook them up when needing to take readings is the less invasive way to allow the circuit to do what it is supposed to do.
The 10A input is not why there was no current reading. Do you realize that the 10A reading gives amps down to 0.00X amps??? The only difference is that it has a fuse if you go beyond that on that setting. Many multimetes have different ranges to different decimals and again, I believe you missed the fact that on the 10A range it perfectly measured a LED at 17ma or 0.017a - so again, jumping to conclusions that on the 10A scale won't show anything. That scale and range for 10A will show down to 0.001 and that is enough to show that all that heat on the switching circuit is made at LESS THAN 0.001 amps.
And if there is a negative sign next to the zeroes, then what does that tell you? It is biased from towards negative obviously meaning negative current even though it won't show the #'s below 0.000 for current.
This comment of yours "Surely there is at least 1mA being used in this circuit" - that is not the question of someone inquiring into what is. It is a comment that suggests that the results must be in alignment with your preconceived ideas. What do you think negative current means? It is the opposite of positive current meaning that surely there isn't 1ma as the fluke multimeter showed...not 1ma. Not 0.001 but 0.000 and with a negative sign.
In any case, I have nothing to hide. However, I'm not going to partake in dog and pony show demonstrations that prove nothing but I'll do a quick vid on this just because...but from here on out, if I feel your questions are just wasting time and are not valid, I'm going to have to turn you down and you can belive that I just don't want to show the truth or whatever you want. I can't stop you or the skepti-crew from doing that either but if you really look at what has been posted, there actually is enough data to extrapolate what is happening.
Also your claim that I was playing with noise because of 36mv reading or whatever is actually a very malicious claim. Noise doesn't show as very consistant number of pulsed oscillation with consistent breaks in the middle. If you analyzed noise on a scope, you will see no such thing. Leave the scope connected to any circuit and then just turn it off. I guarantee, you will never find "ambient noise" or whatever you want to call it on the scope that looks like what I showed.
And I have no aversion to hooking meters to it. I can show 0.000 and -0.000. We can run the circuit at negative with an ampmeter but besides runing efficiency to a degree - point blank - if you had the experience some of us have had with these types of circuits, you would know it is an effort in futility and there is no analog or digital amp meter that will ever be as accurate as the scope.
Please realize, the amp meters do NOT measure current - that is because the conventional world doesn't even know what the heck current is and build their meters accordingly. They have to measure voltage drops across resistors in order to get a value that is 100% PURE SPECULATION that it must indicate such and such electron current.
I have no problem using voltage drops across a shunt (scope data logging) because that is acceptable to conventional science. And if they want to argue the results, they might as well burn their own house down.
Another point is that you mention some proof of a reversed current. In 10000 samples of data, every point where you see a negative value in the voltage column is CURRENT MOVING IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION.
Your comment on this: "Any averaging that is done by the meter is done after the sampling, so it has no effect on the current itself."
Well, again, what do you think a sample is?
Jibbguy said: "The circuit's performance will be affected by the action of observing it (sounds positively "Quantum" lol). "
Exactly! It DOES take potential away from the circuit and therefore reduces the current to a proportionate amount. At the low negattive wattages, to zero, to low positives, the difference isn't that much. But as the power goes up, the more, the effect from the meter is much more apparent.
Here is something you REALLY need to comprehend Poynt...
1. An amp meter can reflect the same current as the dc average on the scopes even though in the long run, it sucks potential away from charging. But nevertheless, it is a fact that the dc average over a shunt divided by the shunt ohms is the current that the scope calculates. If you look at the amp meter, it will be almost the same or identical. Probably a statistically insignificant deviation from each other meaning, in simple language, they are showing the same thing.
2. YOU have CLEARLY expressed your belief that what the amp meter shows on these digital meters negative or positive is a valid measurement. Therefore, IF THE SCOPE SHOWS THE SAME CURRENT AS THE AMP METER, that means YOU AGREE WITH THE SCOPE'S READINGS!
3. Because both scope and amp meter show the same current, you agree with them BOTH since the scope show the same current as the amp meter. The amp meter has a flaw in its slow averaging rate but when we're talking about just mv's below zero or above, it may be fine. But if we're talking about hundreds of milivolts to many volts, then I would not even entertain the idea of using an amp meter under those conditions. Anyway, all the NEGATIVE VOLTAGES OVER THE SHUNT ARE OBVIOUSLY TAKEN INTO CONSIDERATION to show an accurate measurement of current. A major difference between the scope and the multimeter is that the multimeter does not give you a read out of the negative voltage over the shunt - just the current that is assumed is calculated and it shows you the result. If the multimeter did not have the positive readings reduced by the NEGATIVE VOLTAGE AND CURRENT, there is no way in the world that it would show the same as the scope. This is really just common sense.
4. That means that when a multimeter shows you based on it's limited capability an average of 0.000 to -0.000 amps of current that the readings on the scope that do actually show you the voltage difference across the "shunt" with a net negative reading - IS ACTUALLY CORRECT!
5. Based on POINT #2, the fact that if you feel an amp meter is accurate, that means you must believe the scope is accurate if the scope shows the same current based on calculations that the meter shows. What this means is that you are forced to agree with POINT #4 that the negative current reading on the scope is correct if the amp meter doesn't show any evidence of positive current. 0.000 to -0.000 is ZERO or LESS THAN ZERO. That means NEGATIVE WATTAGE average. The CANNOT show a negative wattage value, it is just indicated with the -0.000 amps.
6. When you see the video, you will see the amp meter shows 0.000 to -0.000 and that means that there IS negative current moving "from" the battery anytime the MINUS SIGN - is before the 0.000 as in -0.000 and that corresponds to the average negative wattage on the scope. The scope data will of course show positives, which is indicated by the amp meter possibibly by the 0.000 (without minus sign) but lower than the 0.000 range (which I did on the fluke) but no matter what have never seen evidence of the positive wattage..just 0.000 or -0.000. But since the amp meters sample rate is so slow and there is really an average negative wattage in reality, the average it sill show is 0 to negative - and you have to now agree with this.
7. Simply, there is NO evidence of positive average wattage on the Tektronix or any amp meter I used. There is however AMPLE evidence of NEGATIVE WATTS on both the Tektronix TDS3054C AND the amp meter.
You said if there is indication of negative wattage on an amp meter then it is definitely negative wattage. Therefore, I hope you are true to your word. The amp meter will show 0.000 (no evidence of positive wattage but there could be some positive below 0.000 (fluke) or 0.00 on red meter but even the Tektronix data shows positive readings AND negative - but just net negative. AND the amp meter does show -0.000, which IS DEFINITELY negative wattage, just no sum expressed. Therefore, you must admit there is negative wattage running in the circuit and any minus sign at -0.000 on amp meter and NEGATIVE net sum on the massive samples from the Tektronix correlate with each other. THERE IS NEGATIVE/REVERSE CURRENT RUNNING ON THE CIRCUIT.
And just so you don't get away with it- your comment:
"All we are looking for with this test is a solid "0.001" or "-0.001" (or better)."
THE METER WON'T SHOW YOU A NEGATIVE -0.001 OR LESS!!! It will only show you -0.000. That indidates negative current!!! And you never see 0.001 or 0.00 you only see the ZEROES and -ZEROES!! That means negative wattage - get it and move on.
no point as there's no practical application? That's presuming that you don't require another series of results from another ammeter 
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