COP 17 Heater | Rosemary Ainslie

[MileHigh]

Joit:

The point that I am making is that a "Tesla coil" is simply a type of coil. Different sizes, number of turns, wire gages, they are all basically coils.

Rosemary:

Gotoluc's experiments have aspects that are fundamentally the same as yours. A col is repeatedly excited with DC and discharges, or you use a function generator and look for resonance effects.

So the classical term for "recirculated current flow" (I think I am correnting a typo?) is that the energy stored in the coil is discharging through a load with a time constant that's derived from the coil inductance and the resistance. I haven't watched many of his recent clips, but I think that's the essence of it.

> Why can the simple inductive laws not be applied to the collapsing fields in the inductor?

That's an unusual question. I am discussing the application of the inductive laws all the time. Inductive laws and collapsing fields and voltage spikes and exponential increase and decay current waveforms across the shunt resostor all all the same thing, just being looked at and described from different angles.

MileHigh

[poynt99]

Disagree, because stored energy is a fact, past tense, and potential energy has not taken place yet, future tense. Stored energy will deteriate over time, as in the compressed rubber ball, if it remains compressed over time it will loose energy. Potencial energy is the future result of that stored energy. They are related but not the same

Mike

Ahy, are you serious




So if you have in your bank account or safe deposit box some stored money or stored valuables, that it means they can not be used or withdrawn at a later date? Do they not have the potential to be used or withdrawn at a later date?

How is that different?

.99

[witsend]

Joit:

> Why can the simple inductive laws not be applied to the collapsing fields in the inductor?

That's an unusual question. I am discussing the application of the inductive laws all the time. Inductive laws and collapsing fields and voltage spikes and exponential increase and decay current waveforms across the shunt resostor all all the same thing, just being looked at and described from different angles.

MileHigh

Luc described the current as 'reticulated'. It's particularly apt because 'reticulation' is used in botany and such like as Nature's designs to move energy around. I prefer it. But I wont wage war to insist on it. It's just that it also happens to be my own preferred description.

To your question - could you please advise me where in Inductive Laws - is there also some complicated need to keep current flowing in one direction? EDIT Sorry MileHigh - I mean not your own explanation. Just the actual back to basic inductive laws as expressed by Maxwell and Farraday. Just first principles.

[witsend]

Sorry everyone but this is just for TK - those are really pretty pictures and some very pretty storage scopes. Can you use them? If not, I could help you.

Kindest,
Rosemary

[Joit]

Joit:

The point that I am making is that a "Tesla coil" is simply a type of coil. Different sizes, number of turns, wire gages, they are all basically coils.

You stated, all Coils are identical. What is quit wrong at her behave.

You do see that at HV Coils, Cokecoils, and Lamare made a few nice Posts, about the lenght for a Coil, to drive it at her own Resonance at a certain Frequency.
Muller had his own Way too, how to wind a Coil. You can find that Posts at OU.com, even.

And btw, soldered or tied Cables, there is no different between it.
The only different is, that you are sure, that at soldered Wires you dont disconnect them, and bring strange behave into the circuit.

And for the lenght from the Cable to the Base, Pffff, that is pure Nonsense, what you are stating. Thats is dreaming (or debunking?), that this will make a different, so far they are solid connected to eachother.

[Michael John Nunnerley]

I am very serious

Ahy, are you serious




So if you have in your bank account or safe deposit box some stored money or stored valuables, that it means they can not be used or withdrawn at a later date? Do they not have the potential to be used or withdrawn at a later date?

How is that different?

.99

Well I do not know about you but if I put money in a safe deposit box for some time and then take it out, it will not have the same value, or does yours gain in value , I wish mine did, and it will only have potencial when I do something about taking it out, and if it is over time the potencial will be less, but the store was the same or not? You can store something, like a person in a jail, but after 40 years in the clink I think he would have very little potential when he came out, if any at all if he died in there.

POTENTCIAL; is the possibility, not the fact. It needed the store and extra energy to extract it.
STORE; is fact, it was a fisical movement to store it, expended energy in one movement.

Mike

[witsend]

It seems that every time I get to ask the actual question - the 'thing' that goes to the heart of the matter - my question is side stepped or ignored. MileHigh and .99 - please one day, could you explain it. I see you're both now off line.

Let me repeat it. Inductive Laws require a compliance of current flow in relation to the polarity from potential difference. For some reason switched circuits not only are unable to generate current from collapsing or changing magnetic fields, but there is 'residual current' all over the place that moves in some preferred direction that has nothing to do with potential difference or polarity?

I cannot get my head around it.

[gotoluc]

Hi Luc. At last. I've been hanging around all day. Ok. I get it. You're just trying to see how often the one can recharge the other?

Not really!... what I was trying to establish is that the circuit may only show excess energy if using lead acid batteries. However, the results are not favoring that since the batteries are starting to show depletion after 2 full position exchanges when using a 12vdc. However it maybe worth re-testing using a higher input voltage. If you go to the topic I started .99 and I have been sharing this and others input may help: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...html#post62143

I suppose you could calculate energy here but you'd need to establish losses and that's difficult. You cannot get a closed system - if that's what you were trying for.

No, I'm not trying a closed system

Can I ask you a favour. Can you do our test? Are you up for it? In other words just our simple circuit. Aaron will help you with the frequencies if needed. You and he can discuss the required parameters. It's just that I so trust your protocols.

My time is limited right now as I'm moving on Monday and Thursday I'm leaving the country for a once a year overseas service mission to help the poor. So I'll be away for about 9 days from the 30th. I can help after I return

I'm afraid guys - for the record - we do not have a perpetual motion thing going here. Just above unity at this stage.

I also feel the circuit to be very efficient

I would suggest to you Rosemary or anyone else to post messages to me in my topic so not to mix it up here anymore then it is.

Thanks

Luc

[witsend]

Well I do not know about you but if I put money in a safe deposit box for some time and then take it out, it will not have the same value, or does yours gain in value , I wish mine did, and it will only have potencial when I do something about taking it out, and if it is over time the potencial will be less, but the store was the same or not? You can store something, like a person in a jail, but after 40 years in the clink I think he would have very little potential when he came out, if any at all if he died in there.

POTENTCIAL; is the possibility, not the fact. It needed the store and extra energy to extract it.
STORE; is fact, it was a fisical movement to store it, expended energy in one movement.

Mike

Not sure if this is science or a lesson in economics. But I love it. Isn't there some residual energy from the body that dies in clink. It's still got mass. Maybe? Vultures sping to mind? They'd be grateful. Are we drifting off the point here? EDIT not that I mind. I'd prefer to learn a bit about how to make money. It certainly isn't coming from this circuit.

[poynt99]

Well I do not know about you but if I put money in a safe deposit box for some time and then take it out, it will not have the same value, or does yours gain in value , I wish mine did, and it will only have potencial when I do something about taking it out, and if it is over time the potencial will be less, but the store was the same or not? You can store something, like a person in a jail, but after 40 years in the clink I think he would have very little potential when he came out, if any at all if he died in there.

POTENTCIAL; is the possibility, not the fact. It needed the store and extra energy to extract it.
STORE; is fact, it was a fisical movement to store it, expended energy in one movement.

Mike

I see.

Well, good luck with that.



.99

[witsend]

I would suggest to you Rosemary or anyone else to post messages to me in my topic so not to mix it up here anymore then it is.

Thanks

Luc

Thanks Luc. Very much. I'll gladly wait. I had no idea you had a thread. Look forward to reading it. And have a good time with your trip. Sounds great. We'll miss you.

[MileHigh]

Rosemary:

To try to answer your two questions. For the first, we can go back to the spring analogy. Imagine a spring 200 meters long and when you start compressing it for every meter you compress the spring, the spring pushes back with 10 Newtons of force.

When you have compressed the spring by 100 meters, the force through the spring is 1000 Newtons. You imagine that the spring has no mass or intertia, it is just a pure pushing force. If you stand there and hold the spring in place with no movement, there is no velocity, so the voltage is zero. Your pushing on the spring without moving is of course like DC current flowing through an inductor.

Is you then back away from the spring at 10 meters per second, when you first start moving, the spring will be pushing on you with 1000 Newtons of force. If you back away at 100 meters per second, when you first start moving, the spring will still be pushing on you with 1000 Newtons of force. You can't escape the initial pushing force from the spring, no matter how fast you move. If you move away at a very very high speed, you make it to the "start line" very quicly and then all of the pushing force from the spring is gone. That's your voltage spike.

As far as inductors go, here goes:

The voltage across a coil is proportional to how fast the current going through the coil changes with respect to time. I leave it up to you to try to imagine it for the spring analogy.

The current through the coil is proportional to how much voltage is applied across the coil over a certain period of time. More time = more current. More voltage = more current. If you stop applying voltage the current remains at a fixed value. The voltage can be positive or negative and will therefore add to or subtract from the current going through the coil. You start the clock and start adding up small time slices of voltage x time to get the current in the coil at time t. This one is easier to visualize, it's the equivalent of holding a spring in your hand and squeezing on it.

Everything we have discussed about your circuit around your coil-resistor and the spikes and the ringing is derived directly from the two principles described above. In fact, the two principles described above are in fact just a single principle being looked at from two different viewpoints.

MileHigh

[witsend]

MileHigh - thanks for that - but I'm trying to get to a simple moment in the switching circuit. Nothing else - no extraneous anythings. Just this.

The switch opens - the battery can no longer deliver any energy. The stored energy, the potential difference in the coil - resistor (per our circuit) does what?

Thanks

[poynt99]

Shunt Voltage Spike vs. Battery Current

OK,

Going back to my post of stating I believe no current goes back to the battery in my sim (or Aaron's test), even though we see a nice single clean negative spike on the shunt resistor, here is what I found. Refer to the two attached scope shots.

In the first we see in green, the negative voltage spike on the shunt resistor very similar to what Aaron's scope shot looked like. The red trace is the battery current. Notice there is no corresponding negative spike of current going back into the battery, however notice the short red spike on the leading edge? That's the effect I described before when the flyback diode is present.

The second scope trace just shows the very top of the current pulse sourced from the battery, also no spike of any kind there in the trailing edge.

These traces made with 100 Ohms gate resistor.

.99

[MileHigh]

Rosemary:

I suggest that you contemplate further. The stored energy in the coil-resistor in your circuit is a function of the current flowing through it and not the potential difference across it.

As far as the stored energy in the coil goes, the coil discharges and the current flows through the easiest path available, and that's across the diode. The coil will generate only the required voltage to keep the current flowing. As the current flows through a resistance, the energy in the coil starts to drop down to zero because of the i-squared-R energy burn that is taking place. The energy in the coil is dissipated as heat, as per your paper. You believe that a significant amount of the energy in the coil goes back to the source battery, to be confirmed experimentally. So far we haven't seen a shunt waveform that shows that. Then there is the argument that even if you did have a lot of coil energy going back to the source battery, it came from the source battery anyways, so the point is moot.

Please don't take the above paragraph as first go at a new heated debate. I just stated it for the sake of completeness, and I am out of gas. There is no point, we will probably have to agree to disagree and see what the replicator results are.

MileHigh