COP 17 Heater | Rosemary Ainslie | Part 2

[gadh]

trying to reproduce the Ainslie heater circuit results

Hello all.
i represent a group of an experienced electrical engineers who try to reproduce the great work Ainslie did. However my colleagues are much more skeptical than I am, while they are the experts an I am only a software engineer...
so i would very appreciate your help in getting the required "harmonics" or oscillation that are need to get OU (by Ainslie claims).
First, see the attached images . They result from replicating Ainslie's circuit, not with the 555 timer circuit, but with an external signal generator (as AInslie also described in another doc).

the current data i have for the circuit applies to the images i attached:

Batteries starting voltage: 26.81v.
Wire gauge: do not know. Seems standard, not thick. Wires not short, not long.
Batteries type: 4.5AH, 12V ,gel, lead acid. (2 bat.)
Freq: 2.399 khz, duty cycle 3-4% (duty cycle calculated from the scope output that showed 16-18us)
Ringing wavelength: about 400khz (from the highest wave to the lowest – until it drops to flat line)
Ringing freq: 6.94 mhz (measured between highest wave to the next one)
Ringing highest amplitude: 255 mv
Shunt resistor: 4 in parallel, 1 ohm, 2 watt, current sensing resistors
R1 pot. value: 134.4 ohm (we used 500 ohm pot., 10 turns, small, blue, cubed resistor with a tiny screw)
MOSFET – exactly like Ainslie's
Load resistor – Ohmite, exactly like Aaron's. (measured to be 10 micro-henries, measure was taken the in 500khz range, +-20% accuracy of the measure)

Osciloscope: Fluke PM3392A, 200 MHZ, 2 + 2 Channel Combiscope

sumary of my questions so far:
1. Do you think our oscilloscope is not accurate enough to be used in this experiment ? what scope do we need – what are its minimum requirements ?

2. please describe the exact harmonics/sub-harmonics/self-oscillation that is needed to get COP>1. please describe it for non-electrical engineers like me... (as simple as possible) so we can know what to expect to see in our scope, and only then we'll start to measure the energy gain.

2a. also in the folllwing doc: "Open-Source-Evaluation-of-Power-Transients- Generated-to-Improve-Performance-Coefficient-of-Resistive-Heating-Systems.pdf" - what is the difference between the harmonics in the "good" tests (that gained COP>1) and the bad ones ? (I assume the waveforms related to this pdf are in the Panacea-Bocaf PDF, 14MB file)

2b. i see our waveforms are exactly like the ones Aaron described, but not like the ones appear in the videos/pdf. what are the right ones ?

3. we plan to test the energy on the load resistor by using a hand-maid calorimeter - put the load resistor inside a thermos can , put in it distilled water and measure the temp. rise of the water. we think this is a much more accurate way to measure than Ainslie's, since her way is problematic for the following reasons:
a. the heat on the resistor can vary according to the exact measure point on its surface/core
b. some of the heat vanishes to the surroundings, and it hard to measure how much. using a sealed environment that is isolated from the surroundings like a thermos can give much more accurate results.
what do you think ?

4. if we can get a true RMS meter of 10Mhz/100Mhz range, do you think it can measure the in/out power exactly ? so we won't need the temp. measure anymore, and the measure of the input battery power will be instant and simple ?

5. in the current situation (as described in the images), can we expect gain of COP>1 ?

thanks in advance,
Gad

[witsend]

Hi Gad. WELCOME to forum. I see this is your first post. I'll study this tonight and we'll make contact in the morning.

That's a lot of work you've done. Very nice.

[FuzzyTomCat]

Hello all.
i represent a group of an experienced electrical engineers who try to reproduce the great work Ainslie did. However my colleagues are much more skeptical than I am, while they are the experts an I am only a software engineer...
so i would very appreciate your help in getting the required "harmonics" or oscillation that are need to get OU (by Ainslie claims).
First, see the attached images . They result from replicating Ainslie's circuit, not with the 555 timer circuit, but with an external signal generator (as AInslie also described in another doc).

the current data i have for the circuit applies to the images i attached:

Batteries starting voltage: 26.81v.
Wire gauge: do not know. Seems standard, not thick. Wires not short, not long.
Batteries type: 4.5AH, 12V ,gel, lead acid. (2 bat.)
Freq: 2.399 khz, duty cycle 3-4% (duty cycle calculated from the scope output that showed 16-18us)
Ringing wavelength: about 400khz (from the highest wave to the lowest – until it drops to flat line)
Ringing freq: 6.94 mhz (measured between highest wave to the next one)
Ringing highest amplitude: 255 mv
Shunt resistor: 4 in parallel, 1 ohm, 2 watt, current sensing resistors
R1 pot. value: 134.4 ohm (we used 500 ohm pot., 10 turns, small, blue, cubed resistor with a tiny screw)
MOSFET – exactly like Ainslie's
Load resistor – Ohmite, exactly like Aaron's. (measured to be 10 micro-henries, measure was taken the in 500khz range, +-20% accuracy of the measure)

Osciloscope: Fluke PM3392A, 200 MHZ, 2 + 2 Channel Combiscope

sumary of my questions so far:
1. Do you think our oscilloscope is not accurate enough to be used in this experiment ? what scope do we need – what are its minimum requirements ?

2. please describe the exact harmonics/sub-harmonics/self-oscillation that is needed to get COP>1. please describe it for non-electrical engineers like me... (as simple as possible) so we can know what to expect to see in our scope, and only then we'll start to measure the energy gain.

2a. also in the folllwing doc: "Open-Source-Evaluation-of-Power-Transients- Generated-to-Improve-Performance-Coefficient-of-Resistive-Heating-Systems.pdf" - what is the difference between the harmonics in the "good" tests (that gained COP>1) and the bad ones ? (I assume the waveforms related to this pdf are in the Panacea-Bocaf PDF, 14MB file)

2b. i see our waveforms are exactly like the ones Aaron described, but not like the ones appear in the videos/pdf. what are the right ones ?

3. we plan to test the energy on the load resistor by using a hand-maid calorimeter - put the load resistor inside a thermos can , put in it distilled water and measure the temp. rise of the water. we think this is a much more accurate way to measure than Ainslie's, since her way is problematic for the following reasons:
a. the heat on the resistor can vary according to the exact measure point on its surface/core
b. some of the heat vanishes to the surroundings, and it hard to measure how much. using a sealed environment that is isolated from the surroundings like a thermos can give much more accurate results.
what do you think ?

4. if we can get a true RMS meter of 10Mhz/100Mhz range, do you think it can measure the in/out power exactly ? so we won't need the temp. measure anymore, and the measure of the input battery power will be instant and simple ?

5. in the current situation (as described in the images), can we expect gain of COP>1 ?

thanks in advance,
Gad

Hi Gad,

Welcome to the forum !!

I looked at your posting and suggest that you insure that your using a schematic that has been proven with many hours of testing which is a modified version by Aaron of the Quantum article with some slightly changed component values by me.
Mosfet Heating Circuit

There are also a video library at Open Source Research and Development with numerous five (5) hour non stop video recordings of the circuit in operation.

I would recommend two video recordings showing the circuit running in the preferred mode of operation.

Tektronix TDS 3054C - January 9, 2010

Tektronix 2445A - January 24,2010

This should help you get going in the right direction

Regards,
Glen

[gadh]

thanks Glen, but i need a more detailed response in order to proceed, since i already watched some of the videos and it did not help me in this stage.
please refer to my questions if you can.
i'll consider changing the circuit after i'll get answers on my posted questions.
please understand that my current situation is that i read much of the info already published by Ainslie/Aaron/you/Panacea Bocaf/etc. and i need to bridge some gaps since i'm not an electrical enginner, so my questions are very accurate and needed a detailed answer.

I can consider building the whole circuit (with the 555) if i'm convinced it will help in this stage, which i'm not right now. at this point i'm trying to change the adjustable parameters (freq./duty cycle/R1) but not getting any self-oscillation (what waveform to expect exactly ? this is one of my questions here...)

[gadh]

about your videos

also, from your videos it not clear when you get to the desired oscillation phase or not. i think you should log the video with some text annotations so it wil be more clear. for example - from which point/time you can start measuring the energy gain ?

[FuzzyTomCat]

thanks Glen, but i need a more detailed response in order to proceed, since i already watched some of the videos and it did not help me in this stage.
please refer to my questions if you can.
i'll consider changing the circuit after i'll get answers on my posted questions.

Hi Gad,

Well I'll try to answer some of your questions ...

1) Your scope is good enough to "see" 50% of the harmonics barely .... the January 24 - Tektronix 2445A is a 150Mz scope that is in one of the preferred mode of operation video compared to the January 9, 2010 - Tektronix TDS 3054C shows this without question.

2) You really cannot explain the wave form and it's changes in oscillation in conjunction with the 555 timer and not using a frequency generator watching the voltmeter voltage oscillating going up and down with the best example ever documented of the effect on January 9, 2010 a five hour video showing the battery voltage going up for about the first hour.

The required operation to get gains is not just in seeing the wave forms but from the 10K data dumps from twenty two tests both are really required for a proper evaluation of the results.

I would suggest you look at the 5 hour videos on the "Open Source Research and Development" site for your references and not the 10 minute YouTube videos, as Aaron did not get the results I did at all.

For all the testing and evaluation images and data for twenty two tests done which Test #13 was used in the "Open Source Evaluation of Power Transients Generated to Improve Performance Coefficient of Resistive Heating Systems" can be found here referenced at Energetic or use my Windows "LIVE" SkyDrive public site Mosfet Heater

3) Your method of measuring the temperature sounds good, I did what I could afford to get a base line to show results ....

4) I doubt the DMM could provide better information than the 10K and 100K data dumps from oscilloscopes that cost (TDS) $10,000.00 to (DPO) $15,000.00 dollars that was used in my testing ... but the DMM is very helpful in the tuning of the circuit.

5) [ in the current situation (as described in the images), can we expect gain of COP>1 ? ] ..... sorry, very doubtful

Hope this information helps.

Glen

[FuzzyTomCat]

also, from your videos it not clear when you get to the desired oscillation phase or not. i think you should log the video with some text annotations so it wil be more clear. for example - from which point/time you can start measuring the energy gain ?

This is in the works .... especially the January 9, 2010 which starts from the 12 volt battery connection to the 555 timer first, showing the 22% service factor and connecting the 24 Volt battery bank and the 555 timer defaulting to a 50 to 55 % service factor .... and on to pot adjustments ....

Regards,
Glen

[gadh]

sorry, i did not understand from the Jan 9 video. can you please attach a few screenshots from it and explain which of them are in tuning period only and which are in the desired state ?
also, my scope is supposedly better than the 2445A, so isn't it enough for this experiment ?

[FuzzyTomCat]

sorry, i did not understand from the Jan 9 video. can you please attach a few screenshots from it and explain which of them are in tuning period only and which are in the desired state ?
also, my scope is supposedly better than the 2445A, so isn't it enough for this experiment ?

SURE, no problem .... time for me to go to work, so it will be latter to day or tomorrow.

Yes your scope is good enough for research I found the harmonics with mine ... took me awhile though not knowing really "what" to look for

Glen

[gadh]

some other questions :
1. if i use the same circuit as Ainslie, with the only diff. is the Ohmite as the load resistor , and i get to the desired self-oscillation mode - what COP should i expect ?

2. how much COP did you get in your modified circuit ? i did not see any COP data in your tests/docs.

3. how much COP did Aaron get in his circuit ?

[b4FreeEnergy]

To oscillate or not to oscillate

Hi Gadh,

Welcome to this little switching circuit from my behalf, unbelievable how many parameters there are… I’m exactly at the same stage as what you currently have and I’m trying as well to gather as much information as I can to get the circuit in the required oscillation mode. No luck yet but I did not have time to measure last weekend. I wonder where we will get. No sense in measuring cops or comparing temperature curves until the oscillation is there of course.
The biggest problem to me is to know what to look at on the scope when adjusting the ON/OFF pots of the 555 circuit, how do you know you’re getting closer? Is it something in the trace on the shunt, the drain of the FET, the output of the 555? If you can’t recognize the indications that you’re getting closer it’s really difficult. You say you’re using a frequency generator, I even tried a microcontroller to generate the ON/OFF pulses but I meanwhile understood that the 555 could be part of the wanted ‘oscillation’ If that’s true you will never get there with your generator. Length of the connecting wire and their thickness can be critical too. I kept my wires as short as I could and used stranded wire but maybe you need long wires. The resistance of my resistor is 14 Ohms iso 10Ohms; the diameter is 29mm iso more than 30mms. This all can be important, so again loads of parameters to keep an eye on …

Good luck!

Cheers,
B

[gadh]

thanks pal for your support !
I indeed am going to build the 555 part since i think it plays a big part in the expected oscillation.

As for the load resistor of yours - check your inductance first. we've measured ours using a capacitor connected with parallel to the resistor and passing AC thru it with a certain freq. since we did not have an accurate inductance meter in the micro-henries range (hard to get, costs at least 200$ i think).

As for the waveforms, i think we should expect some sine waves coming on top of the regular waves generated by the 555 (2.4khz). see my attached images taken from Glen's video's.
I think all the "harmonics" and "sub-harmonics" for a "no-pro" like me means that we expect to see waveforms that look like an audio waves...

Glen - am i in the right direction ?

[Aaron]

@Gadh

Hi Gadh,

I read your email. Thanks for bringing the discussion to this thread.
I personally don't have time to get involved with this thread at this time
and with Rosemary, Glen, Harvey, etc..., they're able to answer any
questions you may have and they are active in with these circuits now.

There is also the other subforum for Glen's group.

The only heat gain that I saw on my tests were some battery draw down
comparison where the Quantum circuit and variation of always gave me
a longer running time. I never posted the results of any of these tests.

I did have over 100C above ambient at a 60% duty cycle with the original
as published circuit in the Quantum magazine and the battery didn't drop
1/100th of a volt over 30 minutes to an hour. I will revisit that exact setup
at a later time.

Good luck with your project - you're in good hands here!

[gadh]

Thanks Aaron for your blessings.

BTW, about the common claim here about the fact the battery voltage did not drop in a long time - just know this is no indication at all for the energy drawn from it. I talked to one of the best lead-acid battery experts in my country (who had also issued some patents in this field), and he told me that this is a common behavior for this type of batteries - the voltage can start dropping only when the battery is almost completely drained and not before that (in some cases).

I was also hoping that you will test the COP - since its the most important fact we need to approve here (some will say - the only fact !)

also guys - why none of you had thought to test the heat dissipation with a calorimeter or a hand-maid one like i suggested ? it seems the most accurate way to measure as i stated before.

[witsend]

Hi Gad,

BTW, about the common claim here about the fact the battery voltage did not drop in a long time - just know this is no indication at all for the energy drawn from it. I talked to one of the best lead-acid battery experts in my country (who had also issued some patents in this field), and he told me that this is a common behavior for this type of batteries - the voltage can start dropping only when the battery is almost completely drained and not before that (in some cases).

This is true. As a result we NEVER took battery draw down rates into the argument. But what is definitely atypical is that the battery actually shows a 'recharge' under 'load' conditions. And this is certainly not in line with classical prediction. And that 'recharge' is consistent with the measured rate of discharge across the shunt resistor.

More to the point is this. 10 years ago, I was roundly advised by mainstream that it is IMPOSSIBLE to return any energy to the battery. This general opinion now appears to be revised.

I was also hoping that you will test the COP - since its the most important fact we need to approve here (some will say - the only fact !)

Where Aaron's tests deviated was that he was consistently able to return more energy to the battery than was delivered. But this at very low wattage.

also guys - why none of you had thought to test the heat dissipation with a calorimeter or a hand-maid one like i suggested ? it seems the most accurate way to measure as i stated before.

Gad. When the measurement of heat indicates a wattage of - for example - 10 watts - and the energy delivered by the supply source is - for example - 1 watt - then that's an evident gain of x 10 over the supply. If one allows for errors in calorimetric values of - say - 5% which is reasonable - or 10% which is stretching it - then add 5% or 10% or even 50% to the amount of energy delivered and you still have an indisputable gain of energy dissipated against the energy supplied. If the numbers were too small - or the difference barely noticeable - then indeed one would need really accurate measurements to determine the COP values. But as the range is extreme - that level of accuracy is simply not required - not even by those many professors who have seen this claim.

Check your pm's. I'll try and reach you there.