Window Motor Replication

[ren]

Lol Im a goose

Fixed.

[rickoff]

Congratulatios, Ren!

This was well worth waiting for, and you have done a great job, Ren.

Nice build, nice pdf, and I loved the video of the window motor running, and also the "dancing magnet" one. That's a really cool effect!

From what you understand about window motors, would the non-steel rotor, fast rotation model simply not have nearly the torque of the steel rotor model that you built? And what rpm's are you actually running at now?

Have you driven anything with the shaft yet? If you were to plug an induction motor into an AC outlet, and then use the Window motor's shaft torque to turn the induction motor shaft at a higher speed than it normally operates at (using perhaps a 1:4 WM:IM drive ratio), the overdrive speed will turn the induction motor into a generator that will reduce kwh that you purchase from the electric company. And at night, when you are sound asleep and hardly using any power at all, the generator will feed that unused power to the electric grid, actually making your electric meter run backwards.

Happy motoring, Rick

[ren]

Thanks Rickoff, I took my time but I am glad I did, made the finish much better imo.


My basic understanding is that a steel rotor will go a little slower, but have more torque DUE TO WEIGHT ALONE. I cant confirm this, this is just what I have heard. It should work better with the same weight rotor but of a non magnetic material.

I havent the equipment to measure rpm, I hope to get a tach soon. Its real fast on 36 volts though. Ill do a high speed run vid soon. I can get the amp draw down to about 100ma on 12v. On a disposable 9v battery the 1-5 ampere gauge I use barely even budges. @ 24v it can draw as little as 500ma, probably less if resistances are changed. 36 v is up around the 1 amp level. Even at minimum amp draw there is still reasonable rpm and torque.

Load wise I am still working on that. I want it to be something special, not just a PMM with cogging and friction to over come.

Stay tuned

[Stephen Brown]

Window Motor, Thanks!

Ren:
Great work on the window-tute.
Helped me gain a lot more insight into the Win-Motor Build.
For all of you playing with large Neos there is this guy on youtube with a bunch of great tutorials, demos and experiments with those beasts. (They really can be finger-snappin dangerous)
YouTube - SuperMagnetMan's Channel
In good health.
Stephen

[ashtweth]

Doc is up thanks to Ren

Here you go guys, Ren has kindly let us put this up for all, now the world can See energetic forums progress and Ren's too
check it out under
Panacea University

Window Motor Replication Tutorial (PDF)
Based on the ideas of John Bedini. Supplied by Ren from the Energetic Forum.
This can be used for both a motor and a generator and has the capacity as a self runner.
Panacea-BOCAF reference page.

More to come.

[Sephiroth]

Very nice Ren

Really impressive!

[rickoff]

Shaft drive engagement idea

Hi Ren,

Suppose that you were to take the induction motor idea I spoke of in my prior post, and use a magnetic coupling disc on your WM shaft to drive another disc placed on the induction motor. The induction motor could be set up on a short track mechanism so that it could be easily moved into a correct position to engage the magnetic repulsion effect, utilizing the magnetic gear concept that Elias brought to our attention some time ago. There would be no friction, as there are no belts, chains, or actual gearing involved. To determine the ratio of the magnets for the WM drive disc and the IM drive disc, you will need to determine the rpm of your WM, and the normal rpm of the induction motor, and then use a ratio that would produce an overdrive of the induction motor by about 10 percent or less. A four pole induction motor rated at 1800 rpm synchronous speed will usually develop its rated hp at about 1745 rpm, which is 55 rpm less than the rating. Here's the sweet stuff: To turn the same IM into a generator of the same hp rating, you only need to increase the rpm's to about 1855! That's just 55 rpm above the synchrounous rating, and a total rpm increase of less than 7%, so should be easily obtainable. You don't need to spin it up any faster than that, and doing so would just cause the IM to heat up. You can run it continuously at 1855 rpm, as a generator, with no heat problem. And the output is so simple. You plug the motor into any receptacle in your house that has the same voltage and frequency rating, and that's it! Of course you'd leave it switched off until the WM brings it up to operating speed. The larger the IM that you can drive in this manner, the better it will be, of course. And to give you an idea of what's possible, a 5 hp induction motor will require about 1/2 hp from the WM's shaft to drive it at synchronous speed. That should give you an idea of the motor size you might be capable of spinning. You could pick up a 2 to 5 hp induction motor really cheap for the experiment (just to show yourself that this really does work) by going to a salvage yard, appliance repair shop, or electric motor repair shop, and looking for an IM that has bad start windings and/or a burned out start switch. That's usually what goes wrong with them when they end up being discarded and replaced. You only need good "run" windings and good bearings to utilize it. As long as you figure the magnetic gearing ratio properly, you will end up at the correct overdrive speed to take full advantage of the IM generator at it's rated hp, and you will sleep so soundly while knowing that your electric meter is running backwards all night. Well, then again, maybe you will wake up the first few nights and go outside with a flashlight in hand to watch the meter in fascination. Sound good to you, Ren?

I'm just throwing this out to you as an idea for putting your WM shaft's output to good use, and it is not just theory, Ren, - it really works, and is perfectly legal too. I know you already have some preconceived ideas about what you might do with the shaft power, and those may be equally as good or better. I support you 100% in whatever direction you decide to go.

Best wishes to you,

Rick

[ren]

Hi Rickoff,

I have to admit I dont entirely understand the principles of the induction motor. My understanding is that the rotor has an electromagnetic field which induces/interacts with the stator. Is this the case? And if so, would power need to be supplied to energize the rotor to in turn induce current into the stator windings? Does it function similar to a car alternator?

Ive had a little setback, threw a magnet @ 36 volts. No harm done, safety precautions paid off and just need to replace the magnet. Damn this thing gets up to speed. In the mean time perhaps you can educate me as to how this induction motor could be coupled to produce useable electricity. I would most likely go with pulleys and drive belts so I can play with ratios easily etc.

[ren]

hmmm, could you be reffering to this sort of thing? Induction Generator

[peper10]

Hi Ren!!

I think what Rickof want to say is,you don"t need pulleys in your setup..
Just having neodinium magnets on a wheel just beside your window motor..
And the second wheel put on an induction motor!
It's just to eliminate the need of a pulley and the friction factor...
BTW!! It's a REALY NICE MOTOR and i hope you have BIG TIME playing
with your new toy!!!

alain d

[ren]

I understand the magnetic gearing concept. I just feel that it wouldnt offer as direct torque as a belt would. I could be wrong, I dont have much experience in this sort of stuff. If all the induction motor needs is rpm and it turns quite easily then perhaps a magnetic cog would work. But if it turns quite easily, I would just use a belt as this would allow for gearing and speed experiements as easily as replacing a pulley.

[rickoff]

Right, Ren

Yes Ren, that's what I'm talking about, although you dont need to tap into the leads in the way they suggest to run an AC circuit. Instead, simply plug the device in to a household receptacle, and provide a motor switch to turn it on after it is driven up to the proper speed to begin generating. You may also want to provide a simple circuit that will automatically switch off the generator if for some reason its driven speed falls to the point where it becomes a motor and begins using, rather than generating power. I can provide you with a schematic for accomplishing that, if you would like.

Certainly you can start with a simple belt drive and pulley system, if you already have that equipment available. If you can change rotor speeds easily by simply changing the input voltage to the WM, though, then that may be your best way to adjust the IM's driven speed, and you could utilize a direct magnetic coupling. In that mode, you could use two or three neo magnets with all norths on one disc, and all souths on the other disc, and both dics being the same diameter. The rounded type with center mounting hole (see RA22CS-P at K&J Magnetics at $2.25 a pair) K&J Magnetics - Products would be ideal for this and make mounting to the discs easy and secure. I would suggest using cutoff discs for this purpose, as they are non-magnetic, strong, and inexpensive, and are available in several different sizes at hardware stores. They already have a center arbor hole placed well, as they are designed to operate at high speeds for cutting metals. If the holes for the magnets are drilled at precisely spaced intervals so that the magnets align well on both discs, then as you slowly slide the IM into position on the track, the magnets will act beautifully to gradually give you a direct coupling effect as the IM is spun up to speed.

Off to bed now. Good night, or good morning to you.

Rick

[peper10]

Hi Ren!!

Do you have tested the torque of your motor yet??
How much torque it has on 12-24-36 volts??
How is the efficiency??Do you recover more than 70%????
I would like to know that because i am verry fascinated with the vid you
gave us..
I am actually stock with a magnetic motor i'm working on, and, with a desing
like your's, it seems more effective..
Anyway!!!I'm verry happy that it work's and you seem pretty happy with
your results..
CONGRADULATION!!!!

Alain D

[ren]

Thanks Alain D,

I dont have any measurements yet, I dont really have alot of good equipment for them. I am hoping to aquire a laser tach and a few other handy items soon.

Rick F has announced on the monopole forums that my particular configuration isnt the ideal geometry and that the magnetic fields shouldnt overlap. He suggests that a larger diameter rotor with the magnets spaced further apart would be better. I dont know if he means better for torque or charging or both.

I am happy with my results so far, but if I build another I will try what he has suggested. I am only running one power winding at the moment, I am still waiting for the multifilar bipolar circuit specifics. Im uploading another vid to youtube at the moment with it running on 36v.

Ive had good results on the 12v platform with charging. The best so far was with three windings in three phase star configuration going to bridge/cap and straight to charging battery. Battery charges quite quickly but it does put a slight load on the primary. Despite this I have had identical batteries on back and front and the charging battery has gone up 0.50v to the run batteries loss of 0.10. The CEMF load in the schematic works too, but doesnt seem to charge as fast, although it doesnt appear to load the rotor as much. If the voltage on the front end is higher than the voltage on the back end, the charging battery will shoot up super fast, actually too fast if its a large difference like 24/12v.

The link to the next vid is here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uWyobLflcM

It may take a couple more hours to finish processing, I just uploaded it then. Ive got a nice little burn on my finger from grabbing that shaft too much

[peper10]

Verry impressive!!!!

Thank's Ren !!
Youre video was a delight for the eyes and the mind!!!
You got so much volts from the generating coil..
Do you really think that you can get better results by having a larger
diameter of your rotor??
That THING is the Gotzilla of the experiments for me.
Imagine having bigger rotor size would have more torque??????
I really appreciate you take the time to give us details!!!