Bedini/Cole Bipolar switch (or how to drastically reduce your input!)

[Bhargav]

Done with straping the magnets

@ Patrick,
Real thanks for the safety advice Makes me feel more confident now for trying higher rpm. Put in an aluminium strap of 2thk around the ends of the magnets . Post pictures a little later today ...

How bad did your setup get hit when your magnets flew off ... Are you still able to run the motor??

Did you happen to try adding more coils in parallel in the reed switch circuit ? Does it sound ELECTRICALLY stupid to try putting all the coils in parallel on the same circuit ??

@ren,
I couldnt positively decide between Aluminium and SS on the video posted . I have made an Aluminium 2 thk strap . Would you see any disadvantage of using Aluminium for the strap ?


Yeah the circuit seems more doable after seeing the full bipolar circuit in operation with the trigger wire setup Rick's kit is cool . It provides the replacement for MPSA when using the reed switch circuit . How did it go on the large motor you were building . I have got 12 ceramic magnets 6 x 4 x 1 and was hoping to do your tutorial sort of setup !!! Any tips ...

Did you try paralleling coils with the reed switch circuit as well??

Thanks for the help Patrick and Ren.

Bhargav

[minoly]

in parallel

never tried parallel, sounds like a good experiment. I think that's essentially what adding more ckts does, only there's not enough room to keep adding reeds, eh... - put them all in series and watch your amp draw go down. we had just started playing around w/ mechanical commutator switching when it flew apart.
2 of our magnets got busted up beyond use for this motor. some of the Plexiglas is broken. we put it all on the back burner for a while.
we put a couple of vids on our youtube channel min2oly a while back.
look forward to reading more on your progress.
Patrick

[ren]

@ren,
I couldnt positively decide between Aluminium and SS on the video posted . I have made an Aluminium 2 thk strap . Would you see any disadvantage of using Aluminium for the strap ?


Yeah the circuit seems more doable after seeing the full bipolar circuit in operation with the trigger wire setup Rick's kit is cool . It provides the replacement for MPSA when using the reed switch circuit . How did it go on the large motor you were building . I have got 12 ceramic magnets 6 x 4 x 1 and was hoping to do your tutorial sort of setup !!! Any tips ...

Did you try paralleling coils with the reed switch circuit as well??

Thanks for the help Patrick and Ren.

Bhargav

Should be ok if properly constructed. I did parallel coils, it does make a difference. The large motor has been reconstructed several times. You need to make sure you build it right so it cant come apart. 6x4x1 inch is pretty big. You will probably get better results using halls on this size rather than trigger coils.

Regards

[Bhargav]

Pic update

Just finished the assembly of circuit and SS strapped motor . On initial run with only one half circuit and one wire , the wire was heating up . Any idea why this is happening ???

More trials tomorrow !!!

[Bhargav]

Trials

Hello Ren/patrick,
Did a few trials on the setup . Absolutely no problems with trigger wires method . Reed switch circuit looks more challenging to understand. I could run the circuit effectively with only one reed switch connected albeit generating slight heat in the coils and drawing significantly more from the battery than the trigger wire circuit . But as soon as i connect both the reed switches , transistors heat up like crazy and the draw further increases . Tried a few iterations but seems the trigger wire method seems the more effective method to me until now ...

Got a lot of copper wire for the winding . Close to # 26 and #23 awg as SWG is followed around here for wires . Making 100 rounds each of 23,26,26 for one motor winding. Plan to fit in about 9 motor winding . Any suggestions ?

As Rick states in one the posts , if a single thick wire is used , the on time increases which is detrimental to the motor . So looks like we will have to make the motor coils trigger so that 3 of the total 9 motor windings work at a moment , then the next 3 and then the next... Will post a picture to clarify what i plan to do . Any other ideas for triggering? Reed switches seem very fragile and clumsy ! Are halls any better ?

[minoly]

Hello Ren/patrick,
Did a few trials on the setup . Absolutely no problems with trigger wires method . Reed switch circuit looks more challenging to understand. I could run the circuit effectively with only one reed switch connected albeit generating slight heat in the coils and drawing significantly more from the battery than the trigger wire circuit . But as soon as i connect both the reed switches , transistors heat up like crazy and the draw further increases . Tried a few iterations but seems the trigger wire method seems the more effective method to me until now ...

Got a lot of copper wire for the winding . Close to # 26 and #23 awg as SWG is followed around here for wires . Making 100 rounds each of 23,26,26 for one motor winding. Plan to fit in about 9 motor winding . Any suggestions ?

As Rick states in one the posts , if a single thick wire is used , the on time increases which is detrimental to the motor . So looks like we will have to make the motor coils trigger so that 3 of the total 9 motor windings work at a moment , then the next 3 and then the next... Will post a picture to clarify what i plan to do . Any other ideas for triggering? Reed switches seem very fragile and clumsy ! Are halls any better ?

reeds can be finicky. I think you need to have the pnp transistor trigger the mpsa06 - not replace it. That's how we do it anywho...
We've had much luck w/ halls and trigger coils
there is so much you can do w/ the trigger coils.
the on time is only effected by how large/wide the trigger coil is not how large/wide the power coils are.

take a look at our 500 micro amp window motor on youtube. see how we have the trigger coil laid out... your mind is its own limit.
got the idea from Dadhav on youtube and the monolpole2 group.
happy spinning...

[Bhargav]

Resistance values

Patrick,
I ditched the reed switches for good ... Just playing around with the trigger wire method for now . I put together all the three circuits that Rick provided and got myself two sets of windings too ...

Just looking to generate the best torque at about 2000 rpm . I read on the monopole 3 group window motor faq where it is suggested to replace the trigger wire resistance value to 7.5 kohm as well as using 3.3 k ohm at the 470 ohm in between legs of Mjl . But i couldnt find anywhere a proper co relation between values and their effect on speed / torque . Have you tried anything yet ?

[minoly]

Patrick,
I ditched the reed switches for good ... Just playing around with the trigger wire method for now . I put together all the three circuits that Rick provided and got myself two sets of windings too ...

Just looking to generate the best torque at about 2000 rpm . I read on the monopole 3 group window motor faq where it is suggested to replace the trigger wire resistance value to 7.5 kohm as well as using 3.3 k ohm at the 470 ohm in between legs of Mjl . But i couldnt find anywhere a proper co relation between values and their effect on speed / torque . Have you tried anything yet ?

good work
We played around quite a bit w/ different resistances on our smaller builds. it's quite interesting when you scope it out. all 3 effect each other. we were mostly going for "self runner" low current, that kind of thing. I think you have to get into the hall switching and vary the size of the trigger magnets to increase torque. adjusting the resistors will effect torque to a point, however, you should mostly use them to get that pulse/emf/radiant (whatever you want to call it) back to the battery. they will change the speed quite a bit, however, we never measured the torque and do not think it changed much. like changing gears on a 4x4 to go faster...

[Bhargav]

Got the speed but not much torque

Hello Patrick,
You were right on the 4x4 gear analogy !!! I got the kit running to about 3500 rpm on 1.7 amps at 48V . Put in 7.5K ohm in place of the 4.7Kohm trigger resistance. Put in 750 ohms in place of the heating 220 ohm and ofcourse tried out 3.3Kohm in place of the 470 ohm in between legs of the MJL .

3 full circuits and 6 sets of trigger windings with only 2 power coils connected .
Motor consumes 5-6 amps on startup and as it gets up to full speed it consumes 1.7 amps while delivering 0.7 amps back to charge a different battery set back .

Crazy thing is that the moment i try to load the kit , there isnt much i can get out of the system at all . I tried connecting the output with pulley and belt to a 3kw alternator i had , but the setup wouldnt move beyond 400 rpm and even if i tried to light a 100 W bulb the system rpm reduces to 300 rpm. Have you tried any load tests??? the consumption is also high as the system is really not to optimal speed .

@ren,
What sorts of load had you tested on the bigger version that you had built. Iam contemplating building another unit with NEO's but they are 13 times expensive as compared to ceramic .... Do you think it will make a marked improvement???

Thanks,
Bhargav

[Mark]

reeds can be finicky. I think you need to have the pnp transistor trigger the mpsa06 - not replace it. That's how we do it anywho...
We've had much luck w/ halls and trigger coils
there is so much you can do w/ the trigger coils.
the on time is only effected by how large/wide the trigger coil is not how large/wide the power coils are.

take a look at our 500 micro amp window motor on youtube. see how we have the trigger coil laid out... your mind is its own limit.
got the idea from Dadhav on youtube and the monolpole2 group.
happy spinning...

Hi Minoly

I could not find the the video your refering to. Could you please post a link.

Thanks, Mark

[minoly]

Hello Patrick,
You were right on the 4x4 gear analogy !!! I got the kit running to about 3500 rpm on 1.7 amps at 48V . Put in 7.5K ohm in place of the 4.7Kohm trigger resistance. Put in 750 ohms in place of the heating 220 ohm and ofcourse tried out 3.3Kohm in place of the 470 ohm in between legs of the MJL .

3 full circuits and 6 sets of trigger windings with only 2 power coils connected .
Motor consumes 5-6 amps on startup and as it gets up to full speed it consumes 1.7 amps while delivering 0.7 amps back to charge a different battery set back .

Crazy thing is that the moment i try to load the kit , there isnt much i can get out of the system at all . I tried connecting the output with pulley and belt to a 3kw alternator i had , but the setup wouldnt move beyond 400 rpm and even if i tried to light a 100 W bulb the system rpm reduces to 300 rpm. Have you tried any load tests??? the consumption is also high as the system is really not to optimal speed .

@ren,
What sorts of load had you tested on the bigger version that you had built. Iam contemplating building another unit with NEO's but they are 13 times expensive as compared to ceramic .... Do you think it will make a marked improvement???

Thanks,
Bhargav

Nice, party time sounds like fun.

yeah, we never did much w/ loads before the magnet launching party

are you using the full bipolar switch now or just the half?
the full bipolar should give you more torque.

are you feeding the output back to the input?
this should lower your amp draw. w/ this ckt you don't have to go to a "charging battery" you can put it directly to the input. if you're pulling more than one amp, I'd have a nice big cap in there too.

neo's will give you more torque and more "charge back" have you scoped it out to see the spike over the ac wave?

If we were looking for torque I may have already mentioned it, I saw JB's vid, he used hall's for switching and recommended larger magnets on the timing wheel for more torque. I think that vid has been pulled from the net, I couldn't find it. Not sure why, it wasn't that big a deal...who knows.
look forward to your continued progress,
Patrick

[minoly]

Hi Minoly

I could not find the the video your refering to. Could you please post a link.

Thanks, Mark

Here's it is:
"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOF5waCH4iY"
just watched it, I sound like a dumb *** sorry...
note the trigger coil is squished tight. The effect was higher, sharper voltage from the trigger coil.
Patrick

[Bhargav]

load options and power coil

No video is dumb .... Patrick ,maybe after the improvements you do the earlier documentation seems stupid sometimes. but for later experimenters it becomes a treasure trove . I for one bought the kit b after looking at the video you posted. Thanks again

Yup you did mention the halls earlier . the deal is in the hall/reed circuit provided by Rick , he completely does away with the trigger coils and uses only the power coils . With the test i did with the reed switches , those power coils got quite hot and i quit testing . Guess i will start over with those tests again . You did mention using the halls with the trigger coils , maybe i should try that too ...

I havent used caps much at all .... You think 1000 ufd 450& shud be good ?

I ordered out the smaller 12v PMalternator ... Should take a week and with the conference coming , guess it will be Nov end before imake any progress ...

Regards,
Bhargav

[minoly]

No video is dumb .... Patrick ,maybe after the improvements you do the earlier documentation seems stupid sometimes. but for later experimenters it becomes a treasure trove . I for one bought the kit b after looking at the video you posted. Thanks again

Yup you did mention the halls earlier . the deal is in the hall/reed circuit provided by Rick , he completely does away with the trigger coils and uses only the power coils . With the test i did with the reed switches , those power coils got quite hot and i quit testing . Guess i will start over with those tests again . You did mention using the halls with the trigger coils , maybe i should try that too ...

I havent used caps much at all .... You think 1000 ufd 450& shud be good ?

I ordered out the smaller 12v PMalternator ... Should take a week and with the conference coming , guess it will be Nov end before imake any progress ...

Regards,
Bhargav

wish I knew more about caps to advise you, my best guess is we want a cap there that could handle the spike and the amps, we want it to suck in the charge. the spike in the bipolar ckt is not usually as large as the one in the SG ckt. so it would seem like 450 would be plenty, you could always add more in parallel if the 1000 ufd didn't cover it. another consideration is that you want the motor to draw off the cap as much as possible w/o having to tap the battery (proximity). I read some where that caps could be conditioned just like batteries to receive that spike. please correct if this is mis-info. sometimes we read soo much we forget where it comes from...

anyone else care to comment on any of this?

Patrick

[Bhargav]

Capacitors take time to condition

Hey Patrick,
You are right on capacitors taking tome to condition . I read the FEG book preparing for the convention and John says in the book that capacitors especially if large in capacity takes over a dozen hours to get conditioned , but other negative energy amplifiers like inductors,resistors get conditioned almost immediately.

Makes me wonder if we can see an amplification just by taking the negative charge from one capacitor and rapidly discharging into another( using timing circuit ) and so on into another set of capacitor and so on ... Theoritically seems OK . Comments??

Are there any other benefits to having a capacitor before the batteries ??

Iam here in Coeur D alene and the place just rocks !!! Amazing locale , great restaurants with amazing cheerful people Whats really funny is that i talked to a few people around here ( close by to conference location ) and most dont really know JOHN BEDINI or rennaisance chargers !!!

Cant wait for tomorrow ...

Bhargav