Bedini SG

[Sephiroth]

@ Baroutologos

Seperately driven power strands is the preferred method used by John Bedini to lower the DC resistance / impedance and gives better results than using a single thick power strand driven by transistors in parallel. Try it out both ways and compare results. Remember that we are dealing with Bedini stuff here.

For the more powerful energisers, John advocates driving each power transistor (MJL21194 recommended) with a base current that allows a collector current of at least 1 Amp when worked out using the specified beta current gain for the device. This works the transistor in the 'correct' portion of its curve. The transistors ideally need to be matched in gain. The total energy available at the output bus (where the output diode cathodes are commoned) will then be optimised and greater than using a single thick driven strand driven by multiple transistors with the equivalent power input.

The 'proof is in the pudding', so please 'don't shoot the messenger'.

Hoppy

Hi Hoppy,

Interesting stuff... but I don't understand it all!

Are you saying that there should be around 1 amp peak current through each transistor? (I am using MJL21194 s)

[Hoppy]

Hi Hoppy,

Interesting stuff... but I don't understand it all!

Are you saying that there should be around 1 amp peak current through each transistor? (I am using MJL21194 s)

Hi Seph

A transistor is a current transfer device, so the base current determines the maximum collector/ emitter current when multiplied by the current gain (beta)of the transistor. From memory the MJL21194 has a gain of around 25, so to allow at least 1Amp collector / emitter current, the base current needs to be 1A \ 25 = 40mA. On a 12V supply this would require a resistor around 300R per strand. With a 24V this would be 600R.

The MJL21194 is intended for powerful energisers, so most builders go for 18AWG or 19SWG to deal with the power strand current. I use a forward trigger off the pos supply rail for my solid sate chargers, so size my base resistors under 600R to ensure a minimum of 1Amp collector / emitter current.

Hoppy

[Sephiroth]

Hi Seph

A transistor is a current transfer device, so the base current determines the maximum collector/ emitter current when multiplied by the current gain (beta)of the transistor. From memory the MJL21194 has a gain of around 25, so to allow at least 1Amp collector / emitter current, the base current needs to be 1A \ 25 = 40mA. On a 12V supply this would require a resistor around 300R per strand. With a 24V this would be 600R.

The MJL21194 is intended for powerful energisers, so most builders go for 18AWG or 19SWG to deal with the power strand current. I use a forward trigger off the pos supply rail for my solid sate chargers, so size my base resistors under 600R to ensure a minimum of 1Amp collector / emitter current.

Hoppy

OK, I see what you're saying. The internal workings of transistors aren't my specialty

a few other questions...

When you say a collector current of 1 amp do you mean the peak current at shut off or the average current?

and where did you find this information? I haven't come across it before

Cheers!

[Hoppy]

OK, I see what you're saying. The internal workings of transistors aren't my specialty

a few other questions...

When you say a collector current of 1 amp do you mean the peak current at shut off or the average current?

and where did you find this information? I haven't come across it before

Cheers!

Minimum current to switch the MJL21194 at the correct point in its operating curve according to John Bedini and to keep within its safe operating area (SOA). The transistor gain bit is basic electronics stuff from textbooks. The 1 Amp guideline figure for the MJ21194L from John is something I picked up a long time back from the now defunct SG Forum. John selected this transistor as being particularly suitable for a powerful SG type energiser because of its characteristics. I don't really fully understand his reasons for this choice, so I will not attempt to explain, except to say that he is reputed to be an 'expert' on transistors. John rarely posts on the forums these days but in the past his visits were quite frequent and informative.

Hoppy

[gmeast]

bi-biler vs tri-filer motors

Hi all,

Could someone please tell me the differences in the motors that use the tri-filer coil versus the bi-coil configuration?

Thanks,

Greg

[redeagle]

Hi all,

Could someone please tell me the differences in the motors that use the tri-filer coil versus the bi-coil configuration?

Thanks,

Greg

A tri-filar or more coil gives you more versatility in coil configuration. One option is using it for a second drive coil driven on a separate transistor with a common trigger wire

the other option is to run it as generator coil. you would just bridge rectify it and send to to where ever you need it. on neat thing about the generator coil is that it can be used to back pop the primary. or charge a second set of batteries. I run a trifilar setup on my fan kit. works pretty good for me so far.

[tjnlsn255]

Back Popping?

Can someone show me a tri-filar circuit example of back popping the primary with the third winding, please?

Be happy....

Todd

[redeagle]

here is a link that uses trifilar setup with the option of a fourth wire. It has a separate generator coil that does back popping to the primary.

[gmeast]

third coil winding

Can someone show me a tri-filar circuit example of back popping the primary with the third winding, please?

Be happy....

Todd

Hi Todd,

I'm new to the tri-filer version of the SG but I did build one of the original SG's with the mechanical breaker points several years ago. I purchased the "Circuits and Schematics" book and according to the schematics for both the solid state and motor versions (pp46 & pp47), the third coil winding is used to pick up the field collapse (by inductive coupling) of the 'motor coil' when power is cut to it. The oscillations are collected via a full wave bridge rectifier and charges a capacitor. When a certain timing interval has passed, a 555 timer IC fires a transistor/SCR circuit to 'dump' the cap into a charge battery ... and the cycle repeats.

Am I right here? Chime in please all you experts.

Greg

[redeagle]

My new design

I have added some generator coils to my fan kit to slow it down to optimum charging speed. The coils are from a 12v relay from radio shack. Still not quite enough coils though to be able to tune it to max torque so I should still have some generation left in the system. The four coils are wired in series. I should have pictures and details on my website shortly.

Matt
thegreengarage.net

[tjnlsn255]

Thanks for all the info!

Hi Everyone.....

Thanks for all the great info....

Now I have a lot more to chew on.....LOL

Have fun.....

Tj

[gmeast]

generation

HI all,

In dissecting the Bedini motor circuit(s) I have noticed during the rotor magnet's approach to the coil that there is FIRST some generation into the charge battery (basic circuit) or cap (FWB-SSG variants) and THEN what follows is the recovery of energy from the coil's field collapse (in some form).

Is this correct? If so, this implies that you first 'stress' the charge battery with a 'charging potential' and then BLAST it with a spike either from a cap or the 'inductive kickback' from the coil's collapse ... mmmmmmm?

Thanks,

Greg

[redeagle]

HI all,

In dissecting the Bedini motor circuit(s) I have noticed during the rotor magnet's approach to the coil that there is FIRST some generation into the charge battery (basic circuit) or cap (FWB-SSG variants) and THEN what follows is the recovery of energy from the coil's field collapse (in some form).

Is this correct? If so, this implies that you first 'stress' the charge battery with a 'charging potential' and then BLAST it with a spike either from a cap or the 'inductive kickback' from the coil's collapse ... mmmmmmm?

Thanks,

Greg

That does make a lot of sense greg. That explains why the motor behaves differently if you have a lower voltage battery on the charge side. But wouldn't have as much effect higher voltage batteries.

I believe the the whole system is about a balance between your component parts. Coils should be wound for maximum radiant inductiveness then matched to an appropriately sized magnets and mass of the rotor.
Diameter of the rotor creates the possibility of a choice between higher rpm and higher torque.

that's what I believe that Bedini has done on his larger machines.

Matt

[gmeast]

charge

That does make a lot of sense greg. That explains why the motor behaves differently if you have a lower voltage battery on the charge side. But wouldn't have as much effect higher voltage batteries.

I believe the the whole system is about a balance between your component parts. Coils should be wound for maximum radiant inductiveness then matched to an appropriately sized magnets and mass of the rotor.
Diameter of the rotor creates the possibility of a choice between higher rpm and higher torque.

that's what I believe that Bedini has done on his larger machines.

Matt

HI Matt,

Thanks for responding. But I would like to know what "radiant inductiveness" is and how you determine its parameters. I've tried to find a formal reference to it but no luck. I made the comment about the charge battery issue (from rotor momentum) after watching the following video:

YouTube - Understanding the Bedini Circuit

I had talked to Peter Lindemann about the several versions of the SG and he said that the SG 'recycled' some of its power and that the cumulative mechanical load (a fan maybe) plus the recycling (recharging???) made it definitely COP>1 ... absolutely. Well he didn't say which version.

I wish to prove COP>1 to myself and I know that everyone else has that as a secret wish also. Getting a handle on this is key to personal freedom.

Thanks. Peace,

Greg

[gmeast]

HI all,

The following is from an exchange between Peter Lindemann and someone - I believe from some Yahoo Group. I found it on a Google search.

"My book consistently refers to the radiant spike LEADING the pulse.

That is true. The high voltage transient that leads the pulse is a much purer form of radiant energy. This circuit actually feeds this pulse back to the first battery in opposition to the forward current.

With a fast scope, you can see it across the battery. The high voltage transient produced from the collapsing field of the coil is also radiant, and it is in the same direction as the current delivered to the second battery. John refers to this as "reactive power" because the voltage transient is very short, followed by the current.

The voltage transient that is visible on the scope is really only the "transverse artifact" of a radiant, longitudinal wave. These longitudinal waves are very electron deficient, and therefore do not register well on electrical meters and scopes that are looking for the passage of electrons to give you a reading."

-------------------------------------------------
Has anyone witnessed this? Exactly which circuits and builds, my don't know but this seems to be a setup parameter ... something important to shoot for. I know in John's book (pub 1984) his goal:

Tom Bearden:
"By openly releasing his work in this paper, he is providing enough information for all of the tinkerers and independent inventors around the world to have at it. If he can get a thousand of them to duplicate his device, it simply can't be suppressed as so many others have been"

Aren't we there yet? I know I'm going to keep trying. It would be nice, however, to have some 'hard' setup guidelines so that everyone is making the same working device, working the same way, operating at a COP>1 ... no questionable variants of the original. We need to have THE DEVICE duplicated 'a thousand' times over. THAT will make the dream come true in my opinion.

Peace,

Greg