Bedini Schoolgirl

[blackchisel97]

Hello again,

I tried your led strobe idea and it worked quite well. It is running at about 1600 rpm (3 magnet roller skate wheel & bearing) but the resistance on the pot was only 60 ohms. Does that sound right?

Thanks for essentially spoon feeding me through this.

Joen2010

It seems low. Did you try to find another spot with higher resistance and single pulses? It may be right on the mark, just wondering.

I'm glad it did work for you.

Vtech

[blackchisel97]

I am going to build the school girl model. I'm first learning what the different transistors, diodes, etc. do. This forum is great, I'd rather learn from someone who knows or has made mistakes. Then I can do it right the first time.

My question is; does the type of battery make a difference. People seem to be using lead acid or gel batts. Is this because they are rechargable. Can alkaline batts be used for this simple set up? Does a certain amount of AmpH need to be used?

Answer to your first Q - yes
Answer to your second Q - no, also check my answer about alkalines above.
Answer to your third Q - not really, depending on your build. I can't connect my 6 filar solid state to small battery because will cold boil very rapidly but as far as SSG any lead acid will do. It will be easier for you to notice changes with smaller battery, such as 7-12Ah (motorcycle or similar).
Depending on condition of you battery; abused (sulfated),used or new it may take some time to restore (clean plates and teach the battery to respond to radiant charging). In case of simple SSG with say 16 magnets and running 200 rpm, you are "piercing" non conductive layer covering plates with radiant spike (I'm talking used, poor battery) 200x16=320 times per minute. It seems alot but if you can imagine doing such with a needle, trying to remove an ice from the window you can see that it will take a long time to get it clean. It looks similar inside your battery. In case of multifilar coils and multicoiler SG's amount of spikes is much larger. My solid state SG with six filar coil and air core oscillates near 10,000 times per minute. That is 10,000 pulses, multiplied by 5 coils (one is trigger). Again, this is SG which works on large batteries and capable of restoring 1000Ah within a couple of days. I guess what I'm trying to say is - be patient. Simple SG is a great energizer and you'll learn alot from it. You probably know that already but just in case a word of caution: always make sure your charging battery is well connected before starting your wheel and don't disconnect while is running. SSG is pretty much "shorted" by very low (fraction of an Ohm) impedance of battery. When disconnected from, high voltage spike is more than capable of frying transistor and potentiometer faster than you can say - O s***!!


Vtech

[dR-Green]

1. yes, I have done it however, you have to remember that non nonchargeables weren't design for such. They will pop open when charging pulse is too strong due to the compressed gas which has no other way to escape. I was able to recharge alkaline AA's with my small SSG (you can actually see in one of my utube video clips) I was able to recharge them up to 6-8 times and use in toothbrush. I later added full bridge on the output instead of single diode.
2.Not recommended. Imagine ions inside your battery moving in one direction while charging and opposite when powering a load. Now, what would happen if you try to do both at the same time?


Vtech

Thanks for your reply. In response to your answer to question 2, yes good point regarding the ion movement, but I was wondering more in terms of damaging whatever I connected to it, because then it would be connected directly to the output of the SSG and I wasn't sure how it would like that.

Could you post a link to your youtube page please? Also how do you determine what is "too strong" a pulse? Is it safe to assume that a single bi-filar coil SSG won't produce too strong a pulse? Not that I'm really interested in recharging non-rechargeables as a full time thing, just that it might be interesting to give back to sceptics (family members) an old battery that they were going to throw away to be reused, like in a clock or something small like that. It could also be pretty handy for the wireless mouse when the batteries run down if it works.

[edit] Just spotted your youtube url in your signature

[blackchisel97]

Thanks for your reply. In response to your answer to question 2, yes good point regarding the ion movement, but I was wondering more in terms of damaging whatever I connected to it, because then it would be connected directly to the output of the SSG and I wasn't sure how it would like that. Yes, good point. Beside damaging your battery(it takes a while but it will happen) there is also a chance of damaging device being connected.

Could you post a link to your youtube page please? click on the link above my signature in any of my posts. Also how do you determine what is "too strong" a pulse? It will depend on your coil size, wire size, magnets and space gap, as well as input voltage.Is it safe to assume that a single bi-filar coil SSG won't produce too strong a pulse? If you have a bicycle wheel with 1-7/8" x .375" x 0.5" magnets and AWG #21/23 coil powered from 12V than it may be more than a few AA's can handle. Watch carefully how they rise (in potential terms) If you have 1.5V AA's, connect at least 6 or better 8 in series. Small neodymium magnets are great for connecting them together. If you have an output wires with banana clips they will stick to the magnets too. Make sure all connections are good before starting wheel. You can get them in Walmart or salvage from old hard drives.Not that I'm really interested in recharging non-rechargeables as a full time thing, just that it might be interesting to give back to sceptics (family members) an old battery that they were going to throw away to be reused, like in a clock or something small like that. It could also be pretty handy for the wireless mouse when the batteries run down if it works.

One more thing. If you charge off collector via diode, it will charge with "negative" energy. Battery has to learn first how to respond to it. If you use full bridge rectifier and capacitor across the output than it will convert negative to positive (one the battery is familiar with) inside the capacitor.
I had 2 digital cameras which started to act strange when used with batteries recharged with negative pulses. Maybe a coincidence.
My advice would be to get an older lead acid battery, poorly charging by conventional methods due to sulfation and charge continuously until reaches 14.5V. Let it rest for at least 1/2 to 1 hr to make sure the ions slow and stop moving. check the resting potential and discharge with appropriate load down to no less than 12.5V. What I mean is the C20 rate. C20 is the safe charging and discharging rate and what it means is the 1/20th of the 75% of the battery Ah as claimed by the manufacturer. It sound complicated but what they claim is far from truth. If battery reads 100Ah in reality it has only 75Ah. 75Ah means that ( in theory only) we could draw 75A for the period of 1 hr or 7.5A for 10hrs or 3.25A for 20hrs. This last number is your C20 for this particular battery. Battery should never be charged or discharge above C20. All those fast chargers, boosters etc. cause a damage which is often irreversible - bent plates, shorted cells.
I'll give you some examples of discharge rates for different Ah;

Battery Rated Ah C20 Rate of Discharge (A) Max 12V Load (W)

1 0.05 0.6
2 0.1 1.2
3 0.15 1.8
4.5 0.23 2.7
7 0.35 4.2
12 0.60 7.2
20 1 12
50 2.50 30
75 3.65 43.8
85 4.25 51
100 5.50 66

You can get a light bulb or couple to match desired discharging load.

Also, 12V DC Battery Rates of charge;

% of charge lead acid battery gel battery
resting V resting V
100 12.60 -12.75 12.9 -13.0
95 12.6-12.7 12.8
90 12.6-12.65 12.7
85 12.6 12.6
80 try not to discharge below 12.5-12.55
75 12.5
70 12.45 12.5
65 12.4
60 12.35 12.4
55 12.3
50 never discharge below 12.25 12.35
45 12.2
40 12.15-12.2 12.25
25 battery being damaged 12.10-12.15
20 cells will die soon 11.80-12.0 12.15

I hope this will help with your build and experiments.


Vtech

[blackchisel97]

Battery Bible and C20

I tried to edit my previous post but it didn't let me. I hope those numbers are clear. They were suppose to be in 3 columns

Also, you can download Battery Bible and C20 from my 4shared files. There is more good reading material there as well.

C20.pdf - 4shared.com - document sharing - download

Bedini-The_Battery_Bible.pdf - 4shared.com - document sharing - download


Vtech

[dR-Green]

I had 2 digital cameras which started to act strange when used with batteries recharged with negative pulses. Maybe a coincidence.

Weird! I went to take pics of my SSG to post on here last night, I thought it would be good to power the camera off batteries I charged through it. So I turned the camera on, the screen had green and black lines going across it like an analog TV with poor reception. Then the low battery indicator came on and it turned itself off. So I thought "well that doesn't look good" lol, maybe it's because I haven't used the camera for months or the batteries are flat seeing as I've also been using them for other things. So I swapped them for regularly charged batteries, the screen flickered with the weird lines for a fraction of a second, then from then on everything was normal. So I don't know what that was, interesting now that you mention that about your cameras.

Thanks for the info and the links. I was aware of the C20 discharge rate thing but not the 75% capacity. I can't test "properly" yet because I didn't have a conventional charger for the lead-acid batteries, only an AA charger, so I used the SSG to charge the lead-acids from the AAs. Which of course means I now need to get an inverter and a transformer. I got 50w 12v halogen bulbs today, maybe that's a bit much to ask, so I'll probably just use a resistor to discharge them at a controlled rate.

The numbers are a little confusing, but it is 5:20am as I write this so I'll have a closer look tomorrow, and they'll probably make more sense in the pdfs. Good advice on how to connect AA batteries with magnets, but that won't be a problem because I got battery holders especially for this SSG project.

One thing I don't understand though...

If you have a bicycle wheel with 1-7/8" x .375" x 0.5" magnets and AWG #21/23 coil powered from 12V than it may be more than a few AA's can handle

In which direction does it get "smaller" or "bigger"... I mean, would a 23/26 AWG coil need less AA batteries than your 21/23 coil example, or more

The magnets I'm using are these

Countersunk Disc Magnets

20mm dia x 10mmA x 5mm c/sunk hole

5 mounted on a rotor that's 5mm or so smaller than a CD, 1-2mm gap between the rotor and the coil. It's running at 12v.

Thanks again for your help and information

[blackchisel97]

Weird! I went to take pics of my SSG to post on here last night, I thought it would be good to power the camera off batteries I charged through it. So I turned the camera on, the screen had green and black lines going across it like an analog TV with poor reception. Then the low battery indicator came on and it turned itself off. So I thought "well that doesn't look good" lol, maybe it's because I haven't used the camera for months or the batteries are flat seeing as I've also been using them for other things. So I swapped them for regularly charged batteries, the screen flickered with the weird lines for a fraction of a second, then from then on everything was normal. So I don't know what that was, interesting now that you mention that about your cameras.

Thanks for the info and the links. I was aware of the C20 discharge rate thing but not the 75% capacity. I was referring to larger, especially car batteries. I case of the smaller ones it doesn't have to be that much. I can't test "properly" yet because I didn't have a conventional charger for the lead-acid batteries, only an AA charger, so I used the SSG to charge the lead-acids from the AAs.You can use any wall adaptor which provides 12V DC to power your SSG. They have usually poor filtration so perhaps a few thousand uF cap between pos and neg of input will get them smooth. You can salvage a jack matching your wall adaptor so you can quickly connect or use for other projects. Which of course means I now need to get an inverter and a transformer. I got 50w 12v halogen bulbs today, maybe that's a bit much to ask, so I'll probably just use a resistor to discharge them at a controlled rate.
Depending of your battery you may want to get small automotive bulbs, such as 5W 12V or even grain of wheat 12V 100mA bulbs from Radio Shack and connect them as you need. 50W halogen would be good for 85Ah battery but will be too much for smaller ones.

The numbers are a little confusing, but it is 5:20am as I write this so I'll have a closer look tomorrow, and they'll probably make more sense in the pdfs. Good advice on how to connect AA batteries with magnets, but that won't be a problem because I got battery holders especially for this SSG project. That's even better

One thing I don't understand though...



In which direction does it get "smaller" or "bigger"... I mean, would a 23/26 AWG coil need less AA batteries than your 21/23 coil example, or more
Stay with a thinner wire for now. Thicker wire will cause more current going through due to the lower impedance - more input current. Larger magnets will produce bigger spikes too. There is no point of winding #21 coil and using with small magnets. For that you need a bigger wheel since they cannot be closer than (at least) 1.5 magnet width from each other If you use small magnets and roller skate wheel (as suggested by Aaron on the beginning of this thread) you'll be fine. If you had a chance to look at my small SSG based on hard drive bearing, it has six, 3/4 inch craft magnets (probably grade 5 at most) sandwiched between CD's. The coil is bifilar, not twisted AWG #26/28, about 450 turns. It goes about 1300rpm which is 7800 magnet passes per min. or 130 mp sek. This small SSG will allow me to recharge AA's within 4-5 hours without damaging them and I use the same to recharge alkaline (non rechargeable AA's). I modified at some point and added full bridge rectifier on the output. I used 2N3055 transistor.
For bigger and more powerful SSG's is better to buy MJL21194. More expensive but much better and harder to kill
Actually this thread suppose to be about very basic SSG as we refer to - Simplified School Girl and for the purpose of learning only. I went a bit beyond. I hope not to get my bacon kicked by Aaron for that.

The magnets I'm using are these

Countersunk Disc Magnets



5 mounted on a rotor that's 5mm or so smaller than a CD, 1-2mm gap between the rotor and the coil. It's running at 12v. This is fine

Thanks again for your help and information

You're very welcome
Vtech

[dR-Green]

blackchisel97:

Yes I also have more questions that are probably off topic for this discussion so I'd better find another thread.

I modified at some point and added full bridge rectifier on the output.

I have no idea about that kind of stuff for example but I'm anxious to build more now, like I said on the previous page I'm building a contraption that will hold and twist up to 6 wire spools (assuming it works like it does in my head ). But still, I'm a learner and this is all relevant as far as I'm concerned, it's all interesting information. But I suppose it makes sense to keep the basics nice and clear. It's just nice to see the natural progression documented without having to jump from one place to another. I'll try and track down some of the other threads.

Back to this topic, my coil is 24/26 SWG twisted wires, with around 780-884 turns. I wanted to make it as efficient as possible using the default specs, so that it would not be a waste of time and wire just because I'm a beginner (I like to future-proof things as much as I possibly can ). So maybe I should avoid non-rechargeable alkelines? I have no idea what kind of RPM it is, but it's certainly not slow!

I'll be taking a closer look at your videos too, this tuning one looks good.

[blackchisel97]

blackchisel97:

Yes I also have more questions that are probably off topic for this discussion so I'd better find another thread.
Basic Simplified SG has bifilar coil and positive of charging battery is connected via diode to the collector. This basic setup can be "upgraded" or beefed up by winding additional coils on the same spool. There is a schematic on one of my vid's - solid state 6 filar. This is basically same circuit but multiplied. There are identical resistors limiting base current and one pot to adjust to the "sweet spot". What we gaining is that there are multiple branches for pulses generated due to the rapid collapse of the magnetic field in each coil. All branches are connected to the diodes, just like in SSG and join together after. Next step maybe adding more coils - look up John Bedini 10 coiler youtube and thread. Another way is to make a trifilar coil where two first work like in SSG but the third one goes to the bridge rectifier and output positive and negative is connected to the charging battery. Charging can be done directly from the bridge or it can charge a capacitor and be pulsed over the battery. What happens in this case is that we collect those single pulses in the capacitor and dump say every 30 sec. Those pulses are more powerful and capable of knocking sulfuric layer off the plates much better. There is another way; if you put 20kOhm resistor between collector and base your SSG will start to self oscillate and generate pulses with wheel not moving. That is the way my six filar setup works. As you probably noticed, there is no iron core in this setup. It is an air core and as such it will self oscillate near 10 times higher than coil with core which means 10 times more pulses per min. There is much more but I don't want to distract you from what you're doing at the moment just trying to show that there is more to discover and very interesting.



I have no idea about that kind of stuff for example but I'm anxious to build more now, like I said on the previous page I'm building a contraption that will hold and twist up to 6 wire spools If you want to twist multiple wires than cut desired lengths, attach one end to the tree or whatever you can and tie othe end in the chuck of a drill (cordless or the one with variable speed) than twist wires together. Try not to twist too hard because they can break. In basic setup it doesn't really matter if you twist (litz) or not.(assuming it works like it does in my head ). But still, I'm a learner and this is all relevant as far as I'm concerned, it's all interesting information. But I suppose it makes sense to keep the basics nice and clear. It's just nice to see the natural progression documented without having to jump from one place to another. I'll try and track down some of the other threads.

Back to this topic, my coil is 24/26 SWG twisted wires, with around 780-884 turns. That's good I wanted to make it as efficient as possible using the default specs, so that it would not be a waste of time and wire just because I'm a beginner (I like to future-proof things as much as I possibly can ). So maybe I should avoid non-rechargeable alkelines? I would suggest that and just focus on rechargeables or better a small lead acid battery such as motorcycle.I have no idea what kind of RPM it is, but it's certainly not slow!

I'll be taking a closer look at your videos too, this tuning one looks good.

Vtech

[dR-Green]

Excellent stuff, thanks Vtech I'll be working on a bigger machine while I continue to fiddle with this first one.

This isn't a question as such just an observation, but I still don't really understand what's going on in the SSG; varying the resistance makes it all confusing. If I start the machine at say 680 ohms it spins up as one would expect. If I drop the resistance it uses less power and speeds up, but then if I drop it too low too fast, past a certain point/resistance, it begins to slow down and draw more current. So I go back to the lowest current draw, leave it get up to speed for a few seconds as I slowly drop the resistance, I can go past the point where it slowed down, and it goes even faster and draws less current. It's like if the rotor isn't up to speed and I drop the resistance too low, it can't make the rotor spin fast enough and sort of chokes itself. But the weird thing is that normally when it's running, if the rotor slows down (IE put a load on the axle) the current draw goes down. So I don't have a clue what's going on here lol.

Then again, I can just as easily get the machine to spin up to full speed from standstill with the resistance at 1,680 ohms and not touching the pot at all, I don't have to give it a good spin to get it going. Maybe this is somehow related to the batteries I'm using to power it at the time

If you want to twist multiple wires than cut desired lengths, attach one end to the tree or whatever you can and tie othe end in the chuck of a drill (cordless or the one with variable speed) than twist wires together. Try not to twist too hard because they can break. In basic setup it doesn't really matter if you twist (litz) or not.

I had thought of something like that seeing as I live right next to two big fields with no obstacles in between (except some cows!), I suppose that's the easier option. I'll see how this thing I'm building works out and how much work it takes to use it, but I do like this idea. Hmmm

Simon

[dR-Green]

I was just about to test the 1,680 ohm startup with my nearly flat AA batteries, flicked the switch and the coil started humming, and I think it was repelling the magnet. I turned it off and back on and it didn't repeat the same behaviour. First time I've heard the coil making a noise like that and seen this kind of behaviour from it.

OK, before I posted this I thought I'd try and repeat it. The coil is humming as I write this. It's drawing 118mA, the voltage in the source batteries is going down, and the charging batteries are going up.

Since I wrote that paragraph, the hum has gone a higher pitch and is now drawing 100mA.

I turned the rotor/moved the magnet away from the coil (I didn't spin it), the coil went quiet and now the circuit is "off".

[dR-Green]

With the source batteries nearly flat it doesn't seem to know what to do. The voltage is going down, then up, then down and up again as if it's turning itself on and off based on the available voltage.

Batteries too flat, it turns off and batteries start to recover. They recover 0.4v or so then it comes back on, drops 0.4v then turns off, recovers then repeats the process

It remains at 55mA while this happens so can't really be turning on and off.

(This is with the rotor spinning somewhat slowly).

[blackchisel97]

Excellent stuff, thanks Vtech I'll be working on a bigger machine while I continue to fiddle with this first one.

This isn't a question as such just an observation, but I still don't really understand what's going on in the SSG; varying the resistance makes it all confusing. If I start the machine at say 680 ohms it spins up as one would expect. If I drop the resistance it uses less power and speeds up, but then if I drop it too low too fast, past a certain point/resistance, it begins to slow down and draw more current. So I go back to the lowest current draw, leave it get up to speed for a few seconds as I slowly drop the resistance, I can go past the point where it slowed down, and it goes even faster and draws less current. Yes, that's correct. Remember, we're not aiming for highest rpm but balance between highest rpm at lowest current. From my experience; I would start with low resistance, let speed up than slowly increase resistance. You may notice at certain point rapid acceleration. Back your pot towards lower resistance just a bit. Rotor speed will slightly decrease. This should be roughly your sweet spot. It's like if the rotor isn't up to speed and I drop the resistance too low, it can't make the rotor spin fast enough and sort of chokes itself. But the weird thing is that normally when it's running, if the rotor slows down (IE put a load on the axle) the current draw goes down. So I don't have a clue what's going on here lol.
Yes, this is interesting but perfectly normal. SSG will draw less current with light load applied to the rotor. You may have seen John Bedini SSG with fan blades attached to the bicycle wheel. Try to make a strobe light according to my vid. You'll need LED and 200 -300 Ohm resistor. This will help you tune it without a scope.

Then again, I can just as easily get the machine to spin up to full speed from standstill with the resistance at 1,680 ohms and not touching the pot at all, I don't have to give it a good spin to get it going. Maybe this is somehow related to the batteries I'm using to power it at the time
It is definitely related to the input potential as well as impedance of your charging battery.



I had thought of something like that seeing as I live right next to two big fields with no obstacles in between (except some cows!), I suppose that's the easier option. I'll see how this thing I'm building works out and how much work it takes to use it, but I do like this idea. Hmmm I used this to twist 6 and 8 strands of wire as thick as AWG18. It is a good idea to support the wire (couple chairs upside down) so you don't end up with some straw and grass twisted with wire (not mentioning a cow )

Simon

Good work Simon
V

[blackchisel97]

I was just about to test the 1,680 ohm startup with my nearly flat AA batteries, flicked the switch and the coil started humming, and I think it was repelling the magnet. I turned it off and back on and it didn't repeat the same behaviour. First time I've heard the coil making a noise like that and seen this kind of behaviour from it. This is a case of your circuit self oscillating. It may happen with base resistance being too high.

OK, before I posted this I thought I'd try and repeat it. The coil is humming as I write this. It's drawing 118mA, the voltage in the source batteries is going down, and the charging batteries are going up. Yes, that's normal.

Since I wrote that paragraph, the hum has gone a higher pitch and is now drawing 100mA. This is normal too. Decrease the resistance as I explained more in your next post.

I turned the rotor/moved the magnet away from the coil (I didn't spin it), the coil went quiet and now the circuit is "off".

Yes, magnet triggered the coil and she began to self oscillate but cannot stay in this mode with magnet away.

[dR-Green]

If I drop the resistance

Sorry, I meant if I INCREASE the resistance. I turn the pot anti-clockwise and the resistance is increased. I keep thinking I'm turning it down when I turn it anti-clockwise because that's how knobs usually work. I guess you know what I mean though

I liked your strobe idea but I have a wooden rotor, so according to your description on the video I don't think it's possible? I have a scope though, I just need to get hold of some probes and put a plug on it. But that's been stored up the attic for I dunno how many years so I don't know what kind of state it's in.

I used this to twist 6 and 8 strands of wire as thick as AWG18. It is a good idea to support the wire (couple chairs upside down) so you don't end up with some straw and grass twisted with wire (not mentioning a cow )

Lol, good point! Lucky you mentioned that or I would have an organic coil