Bedini Solid State Oscillators

[blackchisel97]

Another idea

While still fiddling with solid state. Maybe I'm stubborn but I do believe there is something in this circuit not revealed to me yet. Meanwhile I found John Bedini US Patent 2003/0117111A1 - "Device and method for pulse charging battery and for driving other devices with pulse". Instead of 555 it runs on SG3524 - allowing full control of duty cycle, two optocouplers, two MJE15024 and four n-channel IRF260. What make a lot of sense is a separate 12V for PWM. Pulser runs on 24 -50V. Capacitor bank is 0.132F. Circuit looks yummy I wonder if anyone tried this yet? I'm gonna try it anyhow but would love to hear any feedback. Oh, I almost forgot - there is no coil


Vtech

[SkyWatcher]

Hi Chisel, I have tried cap dump setup using relay for dump to separate completely from source and it works though not sure if its better than using flyback off diode and its desulphation benefits. What I would really like to know is what circuit Bedini is using in his chargers hes selling, my guess is flyback pulses off coils.
peace love light
Tyson

[blackchisel97]

@SkyWatcher

Hi SkyWatcher,

I have built several different circuits, starting from pendulum followed by SSG etc. What I want to achieve is to replicate and understand what John Bedini shared with us. I have to admit that I admire this man, and regret that I didn't have a chance to meet him in mid 70', when I was working with electronics and have fully equipped lab at home. It's difficult, after 20 years of working with wood and building furniture to switch back
I can see advantage of flyback and lack of any mechanical parts - relays, reeds in case of battery charger. When you look at small charger from Energenex, it's hard to imagine air coil inside. I know that he would use air coil due to higher frequency (20 -25kHz). I think he is using developed circuit from the one I mentioned in my previous post, without the coil. But who knows. I'm determined to get this solid state tuned and being able to see what it's claimed to do. I can build different charger which will do the job or just buy one from Energenex but that's not what I want. I can't ask questions regarding SS on Monopole3, since it is about SSG. I did ask on Monopole forum but nobody answered. Today I played again with diode between 7 - 2 and I put 1k pot in place of 330 resistor to control duty cycle. I can go well under 50%. I reduced output current and search for resonant point of my battery.
Just bought couple SG3524 and hauled home three PSU's from scrap. They were tagged as "upgraded turbines". I checked on the net - they were $3500, state of the art PSU with toroid transformers, ultra fast diodes and hybrids of mosfets/bipolar transistors. Lots of goodies to salvage Almost 6am, I think I need some sleep.


Vtech

[sucahyo]

For my charging part efficiency, 320mA version:
- fully discharge battery at 1.5Amp for 6 minutes, battery voltage become 1.25V.
- fully charge again at 320mA less than 30 minutes (1.42V). the battery voltage raised from 1.25V to 1.35 during the first 15 minutes.

Discharging rate = 1.5 * 6 * 60
Discharging rate = 540 Amp seconds

Charging rate = 0.32 * 30 * 60
Charging rate = 576 Amp seconds

efficiency = 540/576 = 93%

The battery charge faster than 30 minutes, so the actual number may be higher. The charging part are good but the circuit part are very bad...

I think the choice of using two transistor and using resistor under 1K may be the source of my circuit inefficiency.

Will air coil improve the charging efficiency considerably?

[EgmQC]

For my charging part efficiency, 320mA version:
- fully discharge battery at 1.5Amp for 6 minutes, battery voltage become 1.25V.
- fully charge again at 320mA less than 30 minutes (1.42V). the battery voltage raised from 1.25V to 1.35 during the first 15 minutes.

Discharging rate = 1.5 * 6 * 60
Discharging rate = 540 Amp seconds

Charging rate = 0.32 * 30 * 60
Charging rate = 576 Amp seconds

efficiency = 540/576 = 93%

The battery charge faster than 30 minutes, so the actual number may be higher. The charging part are good but the circuit part are very bad...

I think the choice of using two transistor and using resistor under 1K may be the source of my circuit inefficiency.

Will air coil improve the charging efficiency considerably?

Re-look your math

Best Regards,
EgmQC

[blackchisel97]

@sucahyo

For my charging part efficiency, 320mA version:
- fully discharge battery at 1.5Amp for 6 minutes, battery voltage become 1.25V.
- fully charge again at 320mA less than 30 minutes (1.42V). the battery voltage raised from 1.25V to 1.35 during the first 15 minutes.

Discharging rate = 1.5 * 6 * 60
Discharging rate = 540 Amp seconds

Charging rate = 0.32 * 30 * 60
Charging rate = 576 Amp seconds

efficiency = 540/576 = 93%

The battery charge faster than 30 minutes, so the actual number may be higher. The charging part are good but the circuit part are very bad...

I think the choice of using two transistor and using resistor under 1K may be the source of my circuit inefficiency.

Will air coil improve the charging efficiency considerably?

If I remember well, air coil should resonate 10x higher than iron core and it suppose to be the next step. Didn't try it, yet.

Being honest, I got lost in your calculation
IMO the key to obtain high efficiency is: conditioned (desulphated) battery, matching impedance of battery and coil and proper waveform - which I'm after - tonight. I managed to make a probe and connect my circuit to the PC. Now I can see what I'm doing I was totally wrong while trying to tune according to DMM's This is cute! I can actually print out scope shots from PC. Back to work!


Vtech

[SkyWatcher]

Hi folks, thanks for info Bchisel. You know the matching of impedance always bothered me, I mean do you know how low the impedance is of lead acid batteries and using a coil with that low of impedance whether paralleled wires or whatever is not an easy task, not to mention J. Bedini's spec. of within 1 milliohm. Looking online a wheelchair lead acid batteries internal impedance varies from 9-15 milliohms and it looks like the typical batteries I have 12volt-7AH gel lead acids are 25 milliohm. So a coil to match that would draw some serious peak amperage, so maybe the multiple coil deal with dedicated transistors per coil is used because of the impedance match issue.
peace love light
Tyson

[pvar06]

Reports

Hi,

Furthr to my post #390 on 10/10/2009. I had removed the battery from the circuit after 4 days charging. During the charging time the battery terminal voltage was around 13.31 volts. The details are as given below:

1. On disconnecting from the circuit the battery voltage was 12.92 volts. The voltage dropped from 12.92 volts to 12.39 volts in 4 hours duration.

2. Since the voltage dropped below 12.39 volts hence decided not to have any further load testing.

3. During the charging the battery voltage has gone up but there was no improvement in the gravity of the battery.

During the test, lot of bubbles were coming out from the battery cells. Also the white depot on the edges of the electrode plate is removed slowly (I can observe as the white layer on top of plate is getting reduced).

I agree that there are something missing in this circuit. It looks simple but hard to get the sweet spot. To my mind any circuit which we have should draw altest 1-2 Amps at 12 volts and at output we should have around 200-250 volts to get some meaningful results.

Regards

Praveen

[EgmQC]

Hi folks, thanks for info Bchisel. You know the matching of impedance always bothered me, I mean do you know how low the impedance is of lead acid batteries and using a coil with that low of impedance whether paralleled wires or whatever is not an easy task, not to mention J. Bedini's spec. of within 1 milliohm. Looking online a wheelchair lead acid batteries internal impedance varies from 9-15 milliohms and it looks like the typical batteries I have 12volt-7AH gel lead acids are 25 milliohm. So a coil to match that would draw some serious peak amperage, so maybe the multiple coil deal with dedicated transistors per coil is used because of the impedance match issue.
peace love light
Tyson

You forgot 2 funny thing, impedance change with frequency in a coil. And the second funny thing is the impedance of the battery change too when it charge. You ajust one, the second change, you retune, it change again.

Best Regards,
EgmQC

[blackchisel97]

You forgot 2 funny thing, impedance change with frequency in a coil. And the second funny thing is the impedance of the battery change too when it charge. You ajust one, the second change, you retune, it change again.

Best Regards,
EgmQC

I'm aware of this, but didn't find hilarious, rather pain in an ***
I 'm getting quite nice trace, a bit distorted with 60Hz. Still, getting 2 spots; one @50mA and one @ 100mA charging current. Both spikes are similar. Input draw 0.370A. I know that I should ignore IN vs. OUT and focus on wave. I believe that OUT will be significantly less than IN, that's not the point. I'm not after COP. I want to trigger reaction within a battery, which is a heart of this system, as described by John Bedini and Tom Bearden. Just replaced cap @ the oscillator with 1uF/50V electrolytic. I don't have any small HV DC cap, they're all big.


Vtech

[sucahyo]

If I remember well, air coil should resonate 10x higher than iron core and it suppose to be the next step. Didn't try it, yet.

Thanks .

Being honest, I got lost in your calculation

I omit the voltage since it is too dynamic. I just got this link on other forum:
http://battery.sanyo.com/en/spec/cadnica/N-1700SCR.pdf

This sanyo manual mention that in order to charge 1700mAh in an hour we need 2600mA. Charging at 170mA may require more than 14 hours. Because I charge 1000mAh under 30 minutes with a measured 300mA, I guess I have to throw my calculation out to the window.... I guess I have to calculate input current and charging time vs utilized power and discharging time only.

Just replaced cap @ the oscillator with 1uF/50V electrolytic. I don't have any small HV DC cap, they're all big.

How about use 4 of them in series to make 1uF/200V?

[blackchisel97]

I think I finally got it!

7:30 am. Hopefully, finally, I think I got it right My heavily sulphated 1000CCA is moving and producing some serious bubbles, not just a fine ones like before. I still have to do fine tuning but I need some sleepfirst. I've been working on this since 5pm yesterday. I have built new circuit from scratch. This time using terminals allowing component replacement without soldering. I can get over 0.20A output but when tuned, output current is 0.95A. Voltage on the cap is only 0.9V above battery. I had to change couple values. Wave looks nice; sharp "h" spike.


Vtech

[pvar06]

Great

Hi Vtech,

This circuit will give you good results.

What are the changes you have made on the circuit...

Regards

Praveen

[blackchisel97]

Tuning

Hi Praveen,

First, I have tried different transistors for the oscillating part. I found best results with 3055 (MJL3055). I have 1k pot with 100 Ohms as base resistance. Also, between emitter and ground I put small (27 Ohms) resistor with approx 20 turns of #24 wounded on it. 1uF in 555 circuit has been replaced with 2uF/50V electrolytic (doesn't have to be 50V). I put two stabilizing capacitors; 10nF between leg 5 and ground, and 100nF from 4&8 and ground. I put 1N4001 diode in series with positive going to the 555. My SCR is a triac BTA12 600B trigerred by MJE 13005. My coil is a twisted quad with only 3 windings being used. 450T of 0.45mm (AWG#26) I don't have enough #23 at the moment. Welding rods used as a core.
Main change was proper value of pulsing capacitor. Small caps, such as value from the book charge/ discharge faster. As a result you can pulse at higher frequencies but all I was getting was too much radiant not enough current. Voltage on charging battery appeared to rise quickly but in larger batteries it did result in surface charge. There was lead ion movement but not strong enough to make battery charge itself. After few test I used 2200Uf/400V electrolytic cap, which is charging 0.9V above battery. I can adjust output current between 0.10 - 0.15A depending on battery. 555 oscillator runs @ 180Hz. I'll do some more tests today. I need another coffe


Vtech

[SkyWatcher]

Hi folks, don't know if anyone remembers me posting about the 6V-4.5AH lead acid gel I was rejuvenating. Well after about 10 condition cycles it now takes a proper charge on a typical peak charger. This battery before rejuvenation would drop to 0 volts when an led was connected so it was very dead and sulphated. Just thought I'd let you all know that it worked out very well. I was initially using a joule thief to rejuvenate although after 3 cycles due to excessive heat in transistor I went to 555 timer pulsing and this worked just as well and very little heat.
peace love light
Tyson