Bedini's Kromrey Converter

[MileHigh]

Hey Timm,

You may be aware how in a Bedini motor the transistor driving the main power coil shuts off abruptly, and then you get the famous collapsing-field discharge spike from the power coil.

Note that in the Kromrey convertor there is no "breaking" of the circuit. To be absolutely clear, I am talking about the case where there is no load on the coils, and while the convertor turns you have your scope hooked up to the output from the two or four coiils in series. Are John Bedini's comments about this specific measurement setup? If yes, can you briefly state what his comments are? Thanks in advance. - MileHigh

Edit: Timm, yes indeed you are "breaking" the magnetic flux circuit whereas the electrical circuit remains unbroken. Sorry if I caused any confusion.

[baroutologos]

I believe it is the reversal or short as you call it that is key to it's operation - conventional generator/coil laws do not always apply. Not sure but my measurements so far are encouraging to me.

Ok the short-speed up thing i can somehow understand it. Even though in my experience so far, it requires a too many turns coils to manifest the event (high impedance?) as well as rotor frequency should be damn high.

But, can you extract any energy out of the shorted coils by parallel applying the FWBR??? I think you cannot or minute amounts of it. If your experience is of the opposite, then i will happily give a try.

On the ssg driving motor I agree it is hard to get torque out of it. What was the specs of the one you built for driving the load?

see my PEREPITEIA-FEG ver1

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...-watson-3.html
(scroll down to pictures) Utilizing the SSG (axial mode though) for torquy operation is a costly fiasko! Cost me some 300 euros (400+ USD) !

Regards,
Baroutologos

[StevanC]

Yes, but...

StevanC: You said,

> As the coils break loose, a spike is induced

When most of us hear "spike" I think that we think of a Bedini motor collapsing-field discharge spike.

In the Kromery converter case, there are no Bedini-motor-style spikes. Yes, the waveform can look something like a spike, especially if the oscilloscope time-base is slow, but it's just a sharp rise or fall in the voltage waveform.

Yes,
As is in Bedini style too, if "zoomed" to the split [us] range (0.2usec/div)

But if You run the Kromrey just right, You will get as sharp as this IMO. Have to check this still.

And

It's not the "pike" of the spike but the dV/Dt that is of interest?

[StevanC]

scope

(snip)

I need a scope Any recommendations on brand or model ?
Ebay here I come...

Timm
(snip)

Compare china made with US made - take a cheap model (low end) off a good brand:

I have an EXTECH DVM meter and few china - nonames

I can say the EXTECH, albeit a low end model, outworths the no names by a order of magnitude, and all functions present -work, which is not always the case on no-name...

there are 200EUR brand new usb/PC o-scopes (software)

A PC homed o-scope has tons of advantages over a LAB-scope IMO. Especially @home
;-)

[dambit]

Sorry about the off topic,

Having lived in Asia most of my life and knowing a little about how the manufacturing business works (some of my best friends own factories in China), I'll say this;

"No-name" brands are just that, a product that hasn't had it's badge glued on yet. Most of the major electronics houses get there products produced in asian factories, and many of these factories, as a side business, sell unbranded versions of the same "brand-name" products. Having said that, this obviously does not include your boutique brands, but it does include the majority.

If you want to save money (and I mean a lot of money) on equipment, contact the factories and by a sample. They don't advertise this but everyone sells samples of there product, usually at a highly reduced price. (as an example, I purchased two 200Ah true deep cycle batteries for US$200 + shipping). A good place to search is "www.alibaba.com". You can find anything and everthing.

I'm not advertising, just trying to help you save money.

Cheers,

Steve.

[StevanC]

off topic o-scope considerations

A 2nd hand (used) analog o-scope (Tektronix comes to mind) can have problems beyond repair:

1. selection knob has finite life and substantial price as a spare part.

2. Ac/Dc diodes can be burned and must be replaced as matched pair

A digital scope consideration:
25 MS/sec (Mega samples / second)
0.04 ms /25,000 samples / second
0.04 us /25,000,000 samples per second

equals

40 ns = 5MHz
20 ns = 10MHz
10 ns = 20MHz

If You event of interest lasts 10ns, You better off a 5MHz single channel o-scope

If You look at a decent 5MHz dual channel, You might find it has a double sample rate in single channel mode (20 ns resolution)

OTOH,
some models have USB or rs232 port for serious data logging / analyzing

like the EXTECH 381295A.
see here: "http://www.extech.com/instruments/product.asp?catid=16&prodid=279"

Advanced users might say better advices here, but i sulee would look for that 10ns capable one. YMMV.

[xpskid]

Off Topic O-Scope ..

Thanks Guys !!!

I'll get something coming...

Regards,

Timm

[xpskid]

dv/dt

Folks,

Is there a critical value of dV/dT which must be obtained before effects start to become apparent ?

Curious how this might affect the choice of armature / pole / cores as well as the geometry of the magnet poles relative the armature poles.

I know others have produced the MW waveforms on their units but have not experienced the effects. Testing documents suggest that these units aren't speed dependent, in other words, once performing as desired, speed could be dropped to ~25% and the load was still powered.

Brings me back to maybe my cast iron is permeable enough or less responsive to the flux flip.

I know I could go to laminated cores, or the welding rods, but that makes for a more challenging build (at least for the Kromrey per the DVD). The video looks to be solid material.

Any thoughts ?

Timm

[xpskid]

dv/dt

Maybe this is a value we should start capturing and comparing ?

Timm

[xpskid]

Lambda -

I am inclined to try the rotating armature with coils in the future. If i do i am going to try an idea i picked up on the net where all coils are arranged with the outside poles all the same and inside obviously the same but opposite. Has anyone tried this yet?

Pneuphysics

Pneuphysics,

Is this idea the wiring diagram you posted earlier, with all S poles facing out ?

Timm

[StevanC]

Pole pollution ;oP

Bedini warns in the DVD10 lecture:

You want Bloch wall in the middle on the shaft, not superimposed magnetic poles. He clearly states, the same is desired for the magnet stacks.

The rules seem simple, but stiff?

the plates on his Kromrey seem to carry holes of an 6 pole setup?

He liked the 4pole setup for some reason better?

When i discussed the M/W waveform, i forgot to mention:

The V is off poles, where the more the poles go apart, the deeper the V becomes.

If the poles where colse enough, a regular sinewave gets generated. And we don't want that?

best regards,
Stevan C.

[xpskid]

Data

Pneuphysics,

What kind of voltage are you measureing out of your set-up ?
On your scope trace, is the 1V / 20ms divisions ?

Timm

[pneuphysics]

Xpskid -

1vdcx10 probe so you are seeing 10vdc between squares. More later

Ok Here is the RPM test I promised. I used a hall effect sensor to pick up revolutions and ran the output through a nand gate to clean it up then measured it on my scope which has an integrated freq meter. Running at 1800 rpm no load. When the coils are shorted it picks up 48 rpm. I expected more but I believe for my proof of concept 1st. unit build it tells me to keep trying with a more accurately machined unit, maybe slightly different geometry. I am very pleased and excited to move forward. Hope this helps someone.

Take care,
Pneuphysics

[pneuphysics]

Well, this thing is still winning ... but .. we'll keep going

Starting to wonder if cast iron is permeable enough ? or too slow ?
Pneuphysics, When you went to a serial arrangement, did you flip a coil or cross to the opposite end of the other coil ?

I need a scope Any recommendations on brand or model ?
Ebay here I come...

Timm

Known of the desired characteristics listed above were noted.

xpskid -

I would not use cast iron #1 jmho I would use cold roll or the softest steel I could find, but I'm not convinced your problem is the metal you are using. If I had built the unit you are describing I would put my effort into the armature wiring. That is what the test results are telling me. Not wired correctly. Just my thoughts.

On the scope I would get the best you can afford - the faster the better. My fluke is about 2.5 grand and worth every penny. I realize that is out of many peoples price range - if I had to replace it I probably would get one off ebay from China.

My wiring. I crossed a top coil wire over to the bottom. Flipping a coil gives you the same exact coil, flipping the electrical connections flips the NS poles. If you look at my drawing I scanned and posted that says Now at the top - consider the coil at the top to be the top coil then the wire coming off it on the right going down to the bottom coil needs to be removed from the bottom coil front and connected to the bottom coil rear. The other 2 coil wires go to the bridge rectifier. Front is facing the DC drive motor. From the front the bottom coil is wound cw starting from the front. The top coil is wound ccw starting from the front. Make sense?

Good Luck Timm,
Pneuphysics

[pneuphysics]

Hey Timm,

You may be aware how in a Bedini motor the transistor driving the main power coil shuts off abruptly, and then you get the famous collapsing-field discharge spike from the power coil.

Note that in the Kromrey convertor there is no "breaking" of the circuit. To be absolutely clear, I am talking about the case where there is no load on the coils, and while the convertor turns you have your scope hooked up to the output from the two or four coiils in series. Are John Bedini's comments about this specific measurement setup? If yes, can you briefly state what his comments are? Thanks in advance. - MileHigh

Edit: Timm, yes indeed you are "breaking" the magnetic flux circuit whereas the electrical circuit remains unbroken. Sorry if I caused any confusion.

My 2 cents - I thing MileHigh has a good point. There is a difference in breaking magnetic flux and breaking a circuit. Flux disruption occurs much more slowly than a circuit break, simply because it is a mechanical mechanism.

Take care,
Pneuphysics