Bedini's Kromrey Converter

[StevanC]

Well, lots of commenting activity today, nice to see all the minds are stimulated. For what it's worth, I have worked in electronics one way or the other for about 30 years (much to my shock). Sometimes I feel compelled to make "back to basics" comments because it seems that some of you guys (and girls?) have jumped the gun, so to speak. I have not worked with motors since school, and that was only one course. I am not a builder, so that's out in the open. My aim here is to have fun and see if anybody goes the full distance with their convertor and hopefully contribute when I can. If you have read the forums, I am sure that you are all aware that many topics fizzle out and people loose interest, and no tangible results are ever recorded for various projects. It would be so cool to see some of you answer the big questions that you are trying to answer with your replications. I am also not sure what some of the builders goals are with their setups, but I suppose that will become clearer as things progress. All that being said...
(snip)...

The common lack of fundamental understanding of nature is, sadly, evident.
There are people taking for granted all science back from ancient Elade is flawed.
(I don't)

I really appreciate having attention to a "seen all, been there" practical "man of the trade". I hope we be worthy and keep it?

As hobby scientists and layman often don't understand, the engineers really truly miss the "in-drawer science" in the filed, as much as common people (The old lady on fixed income icluded )

StevanC: I think that you are looking at how capacitors work in Bedini setups where you can clearly see the voltage increasing when connected in the place of the charging battery and mistakenly applying it to the convertor setup. This does not really translate and a cap will not be much use in determining the power output of the convertor. They are simpy two different beasts.
(snip)...

Actually not.

I look how a Capacitor interStage (CiS) acts to a power source:

It is capable to really "suck" heavy amperage and deplete really high voltages.

It seem, to my uneducated mind at least, like low impedance input with a low impedance output.

I understand that our common PSU would not like this:

If I would introduce a 75 mF CiS to a walwart PSU (12V/12W) i would probably kill the diodes of it's FWBR if I dumped down to zero (directly to incandescent light bulb of 12W)

but (always "but"... )

If I put that 75000 uF (=75 mF) CiS to dump at , say 14V, and dump it to a chraging battery (12.1 ... 13.8V) it would dump only every now and then, the FWBR would even be cold.

I had matched the load this way...

If I had to dump to a 12W light bulb, but had to use a CiS to quantize the energy, I guess i had to do it this way:

[PSU] -> [75mF CiS] -> [75mF capacitor ("condenser") ] -> [TPC]-> (Lightbulb)

what is a #*@! [TPC] ?

It is a simple device called Termination point controller. There are many types, they just switch off the load as a preset condition has occured.

I had made a really simple TPC that triggers off the load if 11V...17V level is depleted on the powering side.

This way, the bulb would pulse, but the PSU would never see a Capacitor loading it lower than the TPC set voltage - be it 12V or what ever looks fit.

@ MileHigh,
how about that?

Good luck all!

We surely could use a lot of!

Kind thanks, and the same to You too.

Stevan C.

P.S.

To avoid being seen as "just thinks" I share some of my work
enjoy (if found fit)

note:
The TPC v0.1 is a bit Lying

[baroutologos]

@Stefanc

I can tell you have some experience with caps. I had posted in another thread a question never answered.

Do caps "fill" with current? (noob question). Say an 1uf cap to reach 1 volt require X current and a 10uf caps to reach 1volt 10*X current irrelevatly ofVoltage that supplied this current?

My experience
.................................................. ...
I had attached in my SSG an "energizer" coil of my fabrication. That was 340ohms of 29AWG. It created some 20 mA current (shorted) and 100 Vac constant (unshorted).
if i was going to put an 6volt 50mA lamp at coil output, lamp would not glow (or marginal). If i was connected a capacitor for, say for 5 secs at coils output and then from cap to lamp, the lamp could be light for 5 secs. (superglow at first diminishing later)
I regarded this as the cap playing the role of a "step-down trasformer".

What's your oppinion?

Regards,
Baroutologos

[Matthew Jones]

I understand what you are saying but one thing I find confusing - in all of the videos i have viewed mostly Tom Bearden talks a lot on the subject of negative energy and the effect impedance has on increasing it - low impedance positive energy moves ahead and high impedance draws negative energy in from the vacuum. Not sure how it relates to Kromrey but I noticed when my 5 filar coils are all in parallel I get the most effect, like you say......

I have never heard Tom Bearden mention impedance. I have heard him talk about growth in potential accross resistance. And I have seen this, but only accross diodes. Conventional resistors can kill it.

by the way in 4 4 ohm coils in parallel .....

If you beleive Ohm's law is correct and applicable to this energy, then you have already lost. I know what the meter says, I know how the math works.
What I told you is right. Shoot for "0".

Bedini himself says so on the video. Last time I checked his theories and means of practice were not in a text book. He said 3 wire in parrallel was at 0 ohms, then he backed up and said they were at .4 ohms. One was the actual state and the other was the meter reading. He said balance the coils.

You gotta listen to what he says and practice it. Not what those books say.


Matt

[StevanC]

@Stefanc

(snip)
.................................................. ...
I had attached in my SSG an "energizer" coil of my fabrication. That was 340ohms of 29AWG. It created some 20 mA current (shorted) and 100 Vac constant (unshorted).
if i was going to put an 6volt 50mA lamp at coil output, lamp would not glow (or marginal). If i was connected a capacitor for, say for 5 secs at coils output and then from cap to lamp, the lamp could be light for 5 secs. (superglow at first diminishing later)
I regarded this as the cap playing the role of a "step-down trasformer".

What's your oppinion?
(snip)

I don't have much experience (beside of hours of thinkering), but i don't consider me expert, but a "curious boy"

Capacitor stores charge.
C [Farad] = Q [coloumb] / V [volts]

Charge "Q" is amount of electricity, positive electricity, and tightly related to capacitors. It might turn out that we deal with more "animals" of the same species?

Q=[A x s]=[C]
This means, a capacitor has:

Ampere x seconds contained.

the capacity of the "Condenser"

C= [ A ] x [s] / [ V ]

means:

A current "such high" can flow "this long seconds of time", per every "volt changed".

The capacity is thus bigger , the more amperes flown, the more seconds and the less volts it rises(or lowers).

So:

SSG fills with Q (charge), of what ever Ampere seconds profile it might be, the capacitor for a time dT

For this dT, the Voltage level climbs up for dV of say 5V?

Then, You dump it to the bulb:

the Q is say .05 A x 5 sec = 0.25 As= 0.25 C [coulomb]

and the work is hard to proximate as the voltage fell with a non linear decrease thus ruling out an average value?

W=Q x V (charge times voltage)

The question is:

Is there more work out of the capacitor filled by the SSG, than seen on our instruments?

A really "multy k$ equipment question"


good reading:
Wikipedia: Capacitor

What a capacitor is good at:

It integrates the whole dV and A graph in it self. it is exact SUM over a given period of time.

this cheap, yet this exact

this was the bottom line of my proposal.

So be it easy not possible to quantize, it's child's play to COMPARE among setups.

best regards,
Stevan C.

[pneuphysics]

Pneuphysics: Re: The John Bedini wiring that you followed. If you can you should try swapping the wires on one coil to see if your output voltage is 10X larger like I said. It really does look like you are subtracting voltages there. I know that you responded to Kent stating that you got nothing when you crossed the JB wire config. I don't know, something seems strange because your waveforms are 10X higher in voltage than the JB waveforms.

Pneuphysics: Re: Your spreadsheet. I think the big thing that you want to conclude here is the higher number of turns, the higher the AC voltage output. You can clearly see the 1X, 2X, 3X etc, ratios. It is a fundamental principle. The AC voltage is proportional to the value of the inductance, and the value of the inductance is proportional to the number of turns. The motor amps times the voltage are giving you the approximate watts your setup is burning as heat when there is no useful output from the convertor. It is your wattage "overhead" just to keep the setup turning.

Good luck all!

Morning MileHigh,

You have my drawing posted earlier - draw or explain to me what you would like to test and I will be happy to reverse coil wires and let you know what I see. I can only change coil wires, reversing coils involves tearing the unit down.

My spreadsheet showed me what I expected, as well, with respect to the coil voltages. I was interested in the drive motor currents with shorted generator outputs. If I remember I did not get a reduction in drive current until I was using 3 of my 5 strands hmm...

Thanks for the comments,
Pneuphysics

[pneuphysics]

I have never heard Tom Bearden mention impedance. I have heard him talk about growth in potential accross resistance. And I have seen this, but only accross diodes. Conventional resistors can kill it.



If you beleive Ohm's law is correct and applicable to this energy, then you have already lost. I know what the meter says, I know how the math works.
What I told you is right. Shoot for "0".

Bedini himself says so on the video. Last time I checked his theories and means of practice were not in a text book. He said 3 wire in parrallel was at 0 ohms, then he backed up and said they were at .4 ohms. One was the actual state and the other was the meter reading. He said balance the coils.

You gotta listen to what he says and practice it. Not what those books say.


Matt

I have heard Tom talk about impedances often when talking about Krons work and Bedinis work. Oh well any one else remember that or am I hearing things

We can agree to disagree but I just listened to Bedinis video - the section you were talking about and he said if each coil is 3 ohms and together they are 0 ohms - "actually not 0 but .4 ohms". A meter will measure them at 1 ohm 1/rtot=1/r1+1/r2+1/r3 so I believe John just took a quick stab at it and was wrong, no biggie. My point is the meter measured amount does not match either of his figures - I think he was trying to express what a meter would see. I have had decades of Physics and Electronics training/experience. I think it would be unwise to throw it out and say nothing applies, just as unwise as knowing everything and having a closed mind. What we are after IMHO has been in physics since the early 20's. Our view of electrodynamics is flawed in that it does not include and adequite explanation of the phenomenon we see. Physics does. Our challenge is to use our electronics skills, open mind etc to figure out how to trigger these events. I believe Bedini would agree with me on this.

Thanks for triggering some thoughts,
Pneuphysics

[MileHigh]

Well, I'm back, thanks for the kind comments. I will try to reply to most of the points made recently.

Pneuphysics: "4 4-ohm coils in parallel is 1 ohm not 0 but at some frequency it would be 0 impedance." Sometimes you can indeed get zero impedance at a specific frequency for an AC circuit. In this specific case of the four coils in parallel it would be one ohm plus the the impedance of the coil arrangement. As the frequency gets higher the coil impedance gets higher, and it starts to "take over" from the one ohm of resistance. So in this specific case there is no possibility of a zero impedance at some frequency. I may be splitting hairs here, but I thought that I would mention it.

Your antimatter explanation for the environmental energy is quite exotic. There is a problem there related to the current though. If what you say is happening some current has to "disappear" and that goes against a law that says "the sum of all currents entering a node of a circuit is always equal to zero." If you could measure current disappearing you might have something. Magic sounds good too! lol

Timm: Thank you for the kind comments!

DonL: Awesome documentation for your project. I think a pictuure is worth a thousand words squared for this kind of stuff.

NoNeed: It's a bold stand to state that the convertor output is unconventional. Take for example the point often made about the convertor speeding up when the outputs are shorted. Suppose someone builds a small low-power "ordinary valilla" generator and then tries shorting the outputs to see what happens. What if it speeds up? It may happen, I don't know because I haven't tried. I think the key point is that if someone is going to say "this is different", the implication is that it is different from something else, and that should be tested before you can be sure. i.e.; a controlled experiment. My gut feel is that there is a logical explanation for the speeding up, I just don't know what it is right now. It could be as simple as the induced currents in the shorted coils smoothing out the cogging effect.

With respect to the 400 Hz aircraft generator, that's the real thing, it has a very high power generation density, and it seems logical that it would burn up. I don't see a strong connection to the convertor.

As far as the issue of winding coils goes, permit me to offer up my two cents. Everybody should take a big chill pill with respect to the windings. As long as the windings are reasonably neat and are not too loose you are going to be just fine. The skin effect and the capacitive coupling effects only come into play at very very high frequencies and will have no affect at all on your convertor because it operates at very very low frequencies. The value of the inductance of your coils can vary +/-10%, and for all practical intents and purposes the convertor will work just the same. Please, everyone just relax for your coil windings. As long as you are not sloppy, you are fine. The most important paramater by far is the number of turns, and just make sure the inner coil diameter is larger than your flux path. Hope everyone has the warm and fuzzies from that.

StevanC: Thank you for your kind comments. My head is too tired to really comment on your CiS/TPC stuff right now, but for fun, let me do a fresh posting about capacitors and inductors.

[MileHigh]

Capacitors and Inductors - Yin and Yang

Just for the fun of it I am going to rattle off a bunch of stuff about caps and coils and you should see some interesting patterns emerging.

A cap stores energy in the electric field, a coil stores energy in the magnetic field.
At zero hertz, a cap acts like an open circuit, at infinity hertz, it acts like s short circuit.
At zero hertz a coil acts like a short circuit, at infinity hertz it acts like an open circuit.
When you short circuit a cap, it generates a spike of current.
When you open circuit a coil, it generates a spike of voltage.
The instant in time when you connect a battery to a cap, it acts like a short circuit, and then afterwards it acts like an open circuit.
The instant in time when you connect a battery to a coil, it acts like an open circuit, and then afterwards it acts like a short circuit.
A capacitor integrates the current going into it over time, giving you a voltage across the cap, which is stored energy.
A coil integrates the voltage across it over time, giving you a current through the coil, which is stored energy.
The current going through a capacitor is proportional to the rate of change of voltage with respect to time across the capacitor.
The voltage across a coil is proportional to the rate of change current with respect to time going through the coil.
A cap stores energy and it is proportional to the square of the voltage across it.
A coils stored energy and it is proportional to the square of the current through it.
What is resonance? Resonance is stored energy moving back and forth between a cap and a coil wired togeter. At the peak cap voltage all the energy is in the cap and the current is zero. At the peak coil current, all of the energy is in the coil and the voltage is zero. In between the two extremes, the cap and the coil share a portion of the energy, there is some voltage an some current flowing.

I just thought that it would be fun to say all of that. Some people may be curious enough to start searching online to learn more about caps and coils. The key thing is that these are "universal truths" about caps and coils and their behaviour never changes.

Bonus round: There are not only "electrical" caps and coils. There are "mechanical" caps and coils. An air tank acts exactly like a cap, it *is* a mechanical capacitor. A spring acts exactly like a coil, it *is* a mechanical inductor.

[xpskid]

Dvd

MileHigh,

I recommend you spend the $30 and buy the DVD:
KROMREY CONVERTER

You'll understand what everyone here is trying to replicate.
I'd like to leverage your knowledge, not to tell us that everything has been tried, but to say hey... that's pretty wierd.... try this !!

Regards,

Timm

[baroutologos]

@MileHigh
If you stick it in the long run huh?

In my understanding, Kromrey's converter is a primitive machine. Quite less complex than a steam engine! It's all about a rotor and a stator for God's shake.

IMO there is not long run. This device does not require nuclear physics knowledge to be done only some tinkering (since instructions given). If it is about to work, it should work now. (say this summer)

@Milehigh (also)
What do you mean by the inner coil diameter must be larger from the flux path?

Regards,
Baroutologos

ps: I must confess that i have a bitter taste of Mr Bedini's doings. He participates on circulating DVDs that many people are paying to replicate a free energy device that "after having seen the DVD you have no excuse of not seting up a running one", yet a number of highly skilled tinkers here are involved and not a positive outcome yet.
He must really step up and give very specific instructions or troubleshooting
ps2: I wish not to be mean. I just want to experience a FE device.

[StevanC]

Just for the fun of it I am going to rattle off a bunch of stuff about caps and coils and you should see some interesting patterns emerging.

A cap stores energy in the electric field, a coil stores energy in the magnetic field.
At zero hertz, a cap acts like an open circuit, at infinity hertz, it acts like s short circuit.
At zero hertz a coil acts like a short circuit, at infinity hertz it acts like an open circuit.
When you short circuit a cap, it generates a spike of current.
When you open circuit a coil, it generates a spike of voltage.
The instant in time when you connect a battery to a cap, it acts like a short circuit, and then afterwards it acts like an open circuit.
The instant in time when you connect a battery to a coil, it acts like an open circuit, and then afterwards it acts like a short circuit.
A capacitor integrates the current going into it over time, giving you a voltage across the cap, which is stored energy.
A coil integrates the voltage across it over time, giving you a current through the coil, which is stored energy.
The current going through a capacitor is proportional to the rate of change of voltage with respect to time across the capacitor.
The voltage across a coil is proportional to the rate of change current with respect to time going through the coil.
A cap stores energy and it is proportional to the square of the voltage across it.
A coils stored energy and it is proportional to the square of the current through it.
What is resonance? Resonance is stored energy moving back and forth between a cap and a coil wired togeter. At the peak cap voltage all the energy is in the cap and the current is zero. At the peak coil current, all of the energy is in the coil and the voltage is zero. In between the two extremes, the cap and the coil share a portion of the energy, there is some voltage an some current flowing.

I just thought that it would be fun to say all of that. Some people may be curious enough to start searching online to learn more about caps and coils. The key thing is that these are "universal truths" about caps and coils and their behaviour never changes.

Bonus round: There are not only "electrical" caps and coils. There are "mechanical" caps and coils. An air tank acts exactly like a cap, it *is* a mechanical capacitor. A spring acts exactly like a coil, it *is* a mechanical inductor.

@MileHigh,

I claim no expertise in this area but the obvious:

There is no coil without some capacitance,

There is no capacitor without some inductance.


So we might as well see and study only one and same capacitance (current type of electricity) our meters measure at all and only.

We might as well be totally ignorant to the other type (magnet field stored) electricity:

case study:
A. take a steel cored bobbin
B. energize it for an instant (12V 200A x 1ms?)
C. leave it be.

All would say no current remains flowing (no one could sense it)

Yet the steel has obtained a magnetic field (stored energy - higher level) (it would even have a deformation measurable )

1. To measure it "our way" we either have to move the steel-core relative to bobbin's coil

or

2. To energize it further so we experience a bias of the steel core (saturation? hysteresis? or?)

3. The common compass shows no strength of the field, nor it's oscillation if any. It's like analog meter to DVM or oscilloscope (go figure)?



The point is:
We can't see the magnetic "potential" with our energy common meters without "paying for it once more time".

Our meters are one step too much imperfect? No need to be perfect ,just a bit more perfect IMHO.

we need a way to "sense" magnetic field, instead of "pay to see" - and this would be the "doorknob" to FEG

right?


Maybe some sort of magnetic galvanometer?

[StevanC]

(snip)
@Milehigh (also)
What do you mean by the inner coil diameter must be larger from the flux path?
(snip)

I think he means:

The stiff throat to be the air gap, and in no way the coil core?

The way i see it, the stiff throat in the iron will be the thread (fastening) of the cores?



I apologize to the owners of an already made model.


I recall from the DVD the shaft was about 6mm (6.3mm?) most probably 316L?

NOTE:
All ready to run and grab a first "sold as 316L" piece of steel:

A friend of mine, deep in marine business claims that most "sold as 316L" steel is actually the 304 - almost as perfect, but somewhat magnetic (neos "do", AlNiCo "won't") and "bleeds like hell" in tropes (Caribbean or Polynesian etc...) when used on boats. As You guessed, once bleeding of shame, one never ever takes "sold as 316L" for granted until tested with a decent Neodymium magnet ;) and proven true seller ...

So i think this way (for a 6..8mm true 316L shaft):

Make a squared piece of iron, bore the shaft hole (6..8mm) in the middle:

[. . . o . . .] (top view)

then make the ends round (4 yaw head on a lathe):

|===[o]===| (finished - top view)
with anti-coil-throw-flanges on the ends (1 mm not longer IMO)

And the other view:
|===[:]===| (finished - side view)
I would make 2x2 5mm retention holes (pair each side) for fixing.

This way:
1. We preserve the max cross section area over shaft
2. Keep max iron cross section overall
3. Get anti-throw easy on (fool proof?)
4. Get a High RPM able core (one massive solid piece of iron)
5. Easy to make on lathe (still) piece

I hope this applies to Al shaft, if enough strong @8mm diameter? Or 8mm brass?

Mr. Bedini stressed the middle section is most important? Anyhow, the shaft looks tiny compared to the whole machine?


Stevan C.

[pneuphysics]

@
Regards,
Baroutologos

ps: I must confess that i have a bitter taste of Mr Bedini's doings. He participates on circulating DVDs that many people are paying to replicate a free energy device that "after having seen the DVD you have no excuse of not seting up a running one", yet a number of highly skilled tinkers here are involved and not a positive outcome yet.
He must really step up and give very specific instructions or troubleshooting
ps2: I wish not to be mean. I just want to experience a FE device.

Baroutologos,

I agree with you here 100%. John could have included his rotor specs and stator specs in with the video and save us all a lot of money, wondering and work. We could take off from a working unit and work to improve it, size it up, but for some reason he did not. This is not like his open work in the ssg groups. In there you had many detailed ways you could build the device. My big question is WHY?????? I think any one of us would love to have his working Kromrey for a day to measure and document the details for all in this group and the betterment of mankind. If you are truly worried about the little old lady down the street then what are you waiting for John? Help us help her!

Just my frustration people. I have been chasing these dogs for many years and will until I die. It is a passion of mine and I suspect yours too. I have had few successes and many failures. Thanks for hanging in there with my rant and your great work. We WILL get there

Pneuphysics

[MileHigh]

Inductance of a coil

Here is a decent link that shows you the formula for the inductance of a coil:

hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/indcur.html

L = (mu x N-squared x A)/l

Where:

mu = magnetic permeability
N = number of turns
A = cross-sectional area of the coil
l = the length of the coil

Note if you are winding a coil on a spool the most important factor is the number of turns. If you double the number of turns you quadruple the inductance, and of course you roughly double the resistance of the coil wire.

In most non-generator coil applications the resistance of the coil wire is not significant.

Note also the longer the coil is, the less inductance you get.

To reiterate my point made before, there is no need to obsess on other aspects of coil winding, the number of turns reigns supreme.

Timm: I plan on ordering the DVD and look forward to watching it. Thank you for the link.

StevanC: In an typical inductor at typical frequencies, the inductive effects are millions of times more predominant than any capacitive effects, so you can safely ignore the capacitive effects. The same applies vice-versa for a capacitor.

MileHigh

[baroutologos]

@Milehigh,

Thanks for the explaination. In one thing i think you are wrong. If you have a given amount of wire, in real terms, you get the most inductunce if you have a longer core than a shorter one - same diameter, same material-

I have bought some coils for my project. A short and a long one. Short has the half wire than long one as half length. Same material, same core cross-section.
Short's inductunce is 1mH (ERSE - IXQ Coil
Long's inductunce 5.6mH (ERSE - IXQ Coil.
For double wire, you get 5.6 times more inductunce. Difference is rather obvious. Note that layers thickness is the same for both coils.
By the way, the calculator there sucks. I use Coil Maestro (air core coils calculator)


Capacitane of a coil
...........................
As you say in the low frequency range capacitative aspects of a coil are insignificant, unless those are wound ala Tesla type. Neat parallel windings, not twisting, Biffilar, series connected, operated at some 300-500 frequency at high voltage output (say 300-500 vac)

Then capacitance is able to ofset inductunce, isn't it?

Regards,
Baroutologos