Bedini's Kromrey Converter

[kent_elyue]

Hi Mark. Welcome to the group.

The Motors and Ideas page you posted has one diagram partially missing - "The Adams-Type Test Motor". If anyone wants to see the complete diagram, there is a mirror of the page here:
Bedini IDEAS AND MOTORS

For what it's worth, I recall that John Bedini stated he had removed the Adam's motors from his page(s) because they didn't perform to his satisfaction. Apparently it was too easy to build them incorrectly (as in COP<1) and that ran counter to his aim.

[Mark]

Thanks for the welcome guys

When I started working on the design I really had no idea how similar it was to the Kromrey converter. I have built a quite a few different SSG's and a couple of window motors and wanted to try and replicate the Watson/Bedini machine. I decided to use 2 rotors and place the power coil in between the 2 rotors to take advantage of both ends of the coil for extra speed and torque. I planned on using the other 3 coils as generator coils and space them out over the other magnets so as one magnet is leaving a coil another magnet is entering another coil to try and reduce the coging effect. I also want to use a commutator to discharge a cap bank back into the primary battery when the power coil is off and the generator coils are disconnected from the cap bank. I'll be able to put the generator coils in between both rotors or on the outside of just one rotor. Lots of possibilities and options. My rotors will be made out of plastic with a 1/2 aluminum shaft.

My last window motor used .250amp at 12 volts and the rotor speed was just over 5,000 rpm. I hope this new design has similar speed but will most likely be much slower. Only time will tell. Good luck to all and thanks for the interest. Hopefully one of us can have a break through.

Mark

[pneuphysics]

Mark

Mark: I think that I can visualize what you are trying to build. Is it a setup where the two rotors have six arms each, with an arm every 60 degrees, to form three separate flux paths? How do you intend to have the flux paths cross over each other at the center shaft point? Or will they all merge together into a single flux path at the center shaft point, with N N N on the top three arms and S S S on the bottom three arms?

If one of the four coils will be a driving coil, I can envision two issues: When the driving coil fires the arm/magnet in the firing possition just past TDC will experience a lot of "up" force alond with the twisting torque that you want. Unless the arms are super strong they are going wobble up and down and put stress on the bearings. If you drove the setup with two of the four coils then that would cancel itself out. The second issue is that I doubt this will be as efficient as an external electric motor, so you might have to pump a lot of juice into the drive coil to keep it turning.

Good luck!

Mark,

I agree with MileHigh here especially on the wobble and bearing torque. Did you ever build a ssg on a harddrive platter? i built one with the magnets laying down flat and the coil pulsed them from above stressing the platter like you are talking about. the wobble tore up the hard drive bearings. took another same model harddrive and mounted the magnets standing up and pulsed them from the side and those units are still going 3 years later no bearing wear damage.

I invisioned an ssg motor to turn the kromrey too, very efficient but low torque unless you put many pulse coils arround it. i would start with a speed controlled dc motor off the shelf then once your kromrey is going build the dc motor of your choice. Just my 2 cents

goodluck Mark,
Pneuphysics

[baroutologos]

@pneuphysics

Hello. I was looking in the PDF file you posted reagarding coil winding arrangment. I am very curius...

Are you sure this is the arragement you have on your machine? In my view, coil's voltages are adding. (total voltage = coil x 2). In this way, both coils are shorted and the FWBR is applied parallel to that short.

Thus, you cannot put any load after FWBR and power it because current can flow through coils without having to pass from bridge.

Explain pls this profound mistake.

Regards,
Baroutolgos

ps: SSG powering the Kromreay huh? I did it in an axial mode and it was a very costly failure. SSG is meant to drive nothing but itself really

[StevanC]

Really sleeves up now


I apologize to Tim and Don,

As Don actually invited me, and I was stupid enough to mix this up.

This much about good first impression


regarding Kromrey:

I just broke through the thread and see we have awful lot of problems here:


A. Not common terminology for observed phenomena (negative/positive whatever) we agree upon, it takes quite few post to straighten out even basic stuff


B. Not common tools to evaluate building parts (wind this way, no that way, not that other way, who's wrong, whats right?)


C. No common, agreed upon troubleshooting technique for evaluating a finished build (is all soldered, dimensions, power levels etc...)


Laugh if You will, bu we would most probably stumble trying to build a common brushed DC motor this way IMHO.


So i propose:
We agree upon some basic benchmarks as i find even basic stuff is problems lately:

1. A marked north pole magnet: hang a 2 magnet sandwich off a thin line off the ceiling and note the pole showing geographic north as the NORTH pole. (In doubt: do not discuss it here, just check Wikipedia for it)

2. Make a 200 turn "so/so" gauge coil and find a way to pulse it 50...60Hz DC, make it so it pulses North (repulses the marked North of that marked magnet) and mark the proper end of it. Make it run cool for a long time (low Amp draw)?

3. Now we can calibrate our rotor: mark supposed "A" poles and "B" poles on the rotor (a pair each of "A"s and "B"s) so we know which is which.
A--|--B

B--|--A


4. Align the one "A" to our north pulser, we should have a readout off the coil closest to the pulser, and also on the "B" coil just "over the street" to say so ;-). The two signals should ADD UP if the winding is correct.

5. Do so for the other coil pair (lower transverse axis par and upper t. axis pair).

6. We know now that our co-axial coil pairs are correctly wound and connected in series. Note the "+" sign for "A" sides magnet-pulsed off our test coil. Make "-" sign too on the oil pairs. Now connect one pair's "+" to the others "-".
+A--|--B-
| =
-B--|--A+


7. This is the correct rotor for the Kromrey (IMO, I stand here corrected upon a successful builder ;-) ).


To test magnet arrangements:

I. Make a rotor with only one single coil going to the slip rings/brushes.

II. test magnet polarities with the marked magnet, make sure horseshoes are properly aligned (N,N,S,S on one side). I recommend 4 pole build (i see holes of 6 pole build on DVD10 ;-) )

III. assemble the unit with the single coil and run it. Try to get o-scope shots: note them.

IV. repeat the run for the opposing horeseshoe end. Note the waveform (it shall be the same)

V. placing the tested 4 coil rotor in the machine should provide EXACTLY same waveform only bigger amplitude, be it under load or free run.

Now we stand in front of a build that can be compared with another.

NOTE:
This is merely expression of my personal opinion. YMMV

NOTE2:
flame > /dev/null


NOTE3:
thank You all for the good effort and intentions

best regards,
Stevan C.

P.S.
For anyone unintentionally insulted, i apologize in advance.

[pneuphysics]

@pneuphysics

Hello. I was looking in the PDF file you posted reagarding coil winding arrangment. I am very curius...

Are you sure this is the arragement you have on your machine? In my view, coil's voltages are adding. (total voltage = coil x 2). In this way, both coils are shorted and the FWBR is applied parallel to that short.

Thus, you cannot put any load after FWBR and power it because current can flow through coils without having to pass from bridge.

Explain pls this profound mistake.

Regards,
Baroutolgos

ps: SSG powering the Kromreay huh? I did it in an axial mode and it was a very costly failure. SSG is meant to drive nothing but itself really

Yep it was parallel until I changed them to serial. I will post that new drawing later but yes it works but I did not get as much voltage out of it. This is not a high current device like conventional generators - that is why Bedini can use a very thin wire to transfer this energy. I believe it is the reversal or short as you call it that is key to it's operation - conventional generator/coil laws do not always apply. Not sure but my measurements so far are encouraging to me. I am seeing a 22.5% reduction in current draw on my driving dc motor and a noticable speed increase when the gfield output is shorted. I will be cleaning up the wiring over the 4th. and building a hall effect sensor rpm gague to measure the speed details. I will post those readings when complete.

On the ssg driving motor I agree it is hard to get torque out of it. What was the specs of the one you built for driving the load?

Take care,
Pneuphysics

[pneuphysics]

StevanC

6. We know now that our co-axial coil pairs are correctly wound and connected in series. Note the "+" sign for "A" sides magnet-pulsed off our test coil. Make "-" sign too on the oil pairs. Now connect one pair's "+" to the others "-".
+A--|--B-
| =
-B--|--A+


7. This is the correct rotor for the Kromrey (IMO, I stand here corrected upon a successful builder ;-) ).

Welcome StevanC,

In your opinion what should the waveform look like using this config?

Thanks for your input,
Pneuphysics

[pneuphysics]

StevanC

Sorry

Meaning open windings before bridge rectifier.

Thanks

[StevanC]

6. We know now that our co-axial coil pairs are correctly wound and connected in series. Note the "+" sign for "A" sides magnet-pulsed off our test coil. Make "-" sign too on the oil pairs. Now connect one pair's "+" to the others "-".
+A--|--B-
| =
-B--|--A+


7. This is the correct rotor for the Kromrey (IMO, I stand here corrected upon a successful builder ;-) ).

Welcome StevanC,

In your opinion what should the waveform look like using this config?

Thanks for your input,
Pneuphysics

I have not built the machine yet, but i intend to.

I would expect a alternating M shaped waveform:

As the coils break loose, a spike is induced,

coil travels to near next magnet, inducing another one.

As the coil aligns with horseshoe iron, sweep to zero (TDC).

As the coils pass TDC, we sweep trough zero and on break free we have the next spike below.,.

This is what Bedini refers to as "magneto" and i a "dinamo machine"

non sine wave.

[StevanC]

 /\/\    .
     \/\/

that's the form


I prefer ASCII art to graphic somehow...

The "TDC" (coil to horseshoe aligned) is on ZERO of the big sweep

The inner "\/" between two spikes is midway of two horseshoes, is seems a little round compared to the sharp spikes.

It takes not much imagination to find the waveform looks like a sine wave with inward mirrored tops...

but it's a original dynamo waveform probably had in Ford-T back then...

[pneuphysics]

To StevanC

Good explaination - I agree, I think you are on the right track.

Thank you,
Pneuphysics

[StevanC]

Good explaination - I agree, I think you are on the right track.

Thank you,
Pneuphysics

Although flattered it helps little

Won't do anythig short of having a confirmed Vanilla 4pole Kromrey to fiddle with
: cheers :

[xpskid]

Latest Configuration (#6)

Well, this thing is still winning ... but .. we'll keep going

I'll start with baseline testing my coils per Steve's note.... No shorts, winds seem correct.. resistance and inductance low .... but we'll see

Starting to wonder if cast iron is permeable enough ? or too slow ?
Pneuphysics, When you went to a serial arrangement, did you flip a coil or cross to the opposite end of the other coil ?

I need a scope Any recommendations on brand or model ?
Ebay here I come...

Timm


Materials of Construction update:
Top/Base: 12” square aluminum plates
Shaft: 3/8” Brass
Magnets: (12) 0.50”x 1.0”x 2.0” Ceramic #5 per stack
Poles: 1”x1”x2.5” cast iron blocks, faces to match the arc radius of the armature.
Armatures: 1” cast iron rod, 4.5” long, drilled 3/8” hole to shaft
1/8” of material was left on each end as a stop for the coil windings and faced to the 2.25” radius. Inside of the 1/8” endcaps, the rod was turned to ½” diameter over a length of 1.75” to accommodate the coil windings. The ½” center was wrapped with electrical tape and nylon washers were added to insulate the winding ends from the iron. The windings were held in place with shrinkwrap after completion.
Frame Rods: ¾” Aluminum, aluminum spacers between top of poles and aluminum top/bottom plate.
Coil: 130 turns of #18, trifilar, twisted
Motor: 3000 rpm, 24V, 1/3HP DC, 3000 rpm
Brushes Braided copper held against slip rings with insulated spring

1500 rpm (12V) 5.0 v DC
8.2 v AC
Unloaded draw 3.02 A
Shorted draw 3.08 A
50 ohm 3.06 A

3000 rpm (24V) 3.95 DC
15.98 AC
Unloaded draw 3.95 A
Shorted draw 4.50 A
50 ohm 4.05 A

Slip ring – Slip ring resistance = 0.2 ohms
Slip ring – Slip ring inductance = 208 µH

Known of the desired characteristics listed above were noted.

[MileHigh]

StevanC: You said,

> As the coils break loose, a spike is induced

When most of us hear "spike" I think that we think of a Bedini motor collapsing-field discharge spike.

In the Kromery converter case, there are no Bedini-motor-style spikes. Yes, the waveform can look something like a spike, especially if the oscilloscope time-base is slow, but it's just a sharp rise or fall in the voltage waveform.

[xpskid]

StevanC: You said,

When most of us hear "spike" I think that we think of a Bedini motor collapsing-field discharge spike.

MileHigh,

I believe it to be a "collapsing-field discharge spike".
The flux path charges the coil, then you break the circuit. As explained by John, that is the main principle of this device.

Timm