Zooming in on Bedini's Radiant Spike

[Sephiroth]

I think we are all familiar with the principle that if you cut off the current to an inductor very sharply it will generate what is referred to as the radiant or transient spike. Bedini has claimed that when this spike hits the battery, it will cause the battery to resonate at its ionic frequency which "shakes" the extra energy we require from the vacuum.

I haven't seen John's scope shots so I can not say 100% if this is exactly what he is talking about, but it appears to be what he describes.

The following scope shots are taken from my Fat Boy Oscillator. Full details of Fat Boy are on my website.

The Underground Lab : Blog

Unfortunately my scope is a fossil and I don't trust it to make accurate measurements, though I am confidant the waveform is displayed correctly. If someone would like to send me a decent scope for christmas I can make some accurate measurements for you

Scope shot one - Set so that the spikes are fully visible.



Scope shot two - Changed volts per division so the majority of the spike, and the drop in voltage afterwards, is visible


Scope shot three - Stretched time per division so that the a single pulse to the battery take up the entire display.


Scope shot four - Stretched time so that only the oscillations after the spike is displayed.


Scope shot five - reduced voltage per division so that the entire spike and the following oscillations are visible.


The Fat Boy Oscillator produces the best quality waveform out of everything I have ever built so what you see on your scope may be a bit different. On most of my oscillators there are normally less than half a dozen oscillations before it levels out. If using multiple coils, then the waveform may appear distorted because of slight differences in the coils. I once accidentally used a 1N4007 diode on a multicoiler that used UF4007 diodes on all the other coils. Because the 1N4007 has a slower switching speed compared to the UF4007, two spikes hit the battery at different times and really messed up the wave! I believe this is one of the reasons for using multiple diodes in parallel on each winding so that the slight differences in switching speeds between the diodes (even if they are the same model) become less of a problem as they are more likely to be matched.
I think we are all familiar with the principle that if you cut off the current to an inductor very sharply it will generate what is referred to as the radiant or transient spike. Bedini has claimed that when this spike hits the battery, it will cause the battery to resonate at its ionic frequency which "shakes" the extra energy we require from the vacuum.

[CosmicFarmer]

Nice. I wish I had an underground lab ;-) Thanks for that.

[sucahyo]

The following scope shots are taken from my Fat Boy Oscillator. Full details of Fat Boy are on my website.

Is this your circuit?


I see any circuit by Bedini on starters guide use diode between emitor and base.
http://freenrg.info/Bedini/SSG_STARTERS_GUIDE-Two.pdf

Your circuit do not have such diode. I think this is important in regard of wave oscillation.

[eternalightwithin]

What would happen if you slammed the door closed faster (ultrafast diodes)?

More ringing? Arc over and battery go BOOM


David

[Sephiroth]

Is this your circuit?


I see any circuit by Bedini on starters guide use diode between emitor and base.
http://freenrg.info/Bedini/SSG_STARTERS_GUIDE-Two.pdf

Your circuit do not have such diode. I think this is important in regard of wave oscillation.

That's my circuit except the fat boy uses a 13-Filar coil (12 x MJL21194)

The diode is necessary for the motor circuits because without it a charge will build up on either side of the trigger coil during the field collapse and then once the field has fully collapsed that charge will discharge through the base of the transistor and trigger it again, forcing it into oscillation.

On solid state schematics a high value resistor is normally used in place of the 1N4001 diode, though I believe that resistor is just to prevent thermal runaway by regulating the voltage to the base. I find it isn't always necessary. But that's just me... I could be wrong, but it works and without that resistor the spike amplitude is noticeably higher.

[Sephiroth]

What would happen if you slammed the door closed faster (ultrafast diodes)?

More ringing? Arc over and battery go BOOM


David

The UF4007 is an ultrafast diode

Thankfully my batteries haven't exploded yet... Lucky me!

[sucahyo]

The diode is necessary for the motor circuits because without it a charge will build up on either side of the trigger coil during the field collapse and then once the field has fully collapsed that charge will discharge through the base of the transistor and trigger it again, forcing it into oscillation.

I see, thanks. I use diode in similar place in my 555 circuit though, since it made the transformer sing cleaner.

On my recent experiment I found that higher voltage without load may not means faster charging. Do higher spike amplitude happen when using load or not? Will it make charging faster?

[Sephiroth]

I see, thanks. I use diode in similar place in my 555 circuit though, since it made the transformer sing cleaner.

On my recent experiment I found that higher voltage without load may not means faster charging. Do higher spike amplitude happen when using load or not? Will it make charging faster?

What do you call a load?

[Sephiroth]

That was a serious question by the way... I consider the battery the load.

[sucahyo]

What do you call a load?

In my video I use capacitor. The capacitor is being dump on every 20 seconds and adding ferrite core made the voltage raised faster.

Without the capacitor the output voltage show signficant reduction when using core.

YouTube - Coil core voltage measurement
YouTube - Loaded coil core voltage measurement, revised conclusion

Since I use my circuit to charge battery, I use core.

[Sephiroth]

In my video I use capacitor. The capacitor is being dump on every 20 seconds and adding ferrite core made the voltage raised faster.

Without the capacitor the output voltage show signficant reduction when using core.

YouTube - Coil core voltage measurement
YouTube - Loaded coil core voltage measurement, revised conclusion

Since I use my circuit to charge battery, I use core.

Have you compared current draw with and without the core?

and in your first video where are you measuring the voltage?

[sucahyo]

Have you compared current draw with and without the core?

Not yet. I just did it with two fully charged nicad. With ferrite core 110mA, without core 140mA. I use digital multi meter. confusing lol. How come my second video charge faster if voltage and current is lower ?

and in your first video where are you measuring the voltage?

Volt meter replacing the charged battery.

[Sephiroth]

Well, judging from what I can see, this would be my interpretation:

by adding a core you are increasing the inductance of your coil. An air core coil normally has a much lower inductance than an iron core coil and so its Q (quality factor) is also alot lower... By adding a core you are increasing the Q of your coil. This means the inductance/resitance ratio is far more favourable because more energy is can stored in the magnetic field and less is being burnt up by the coil's resistance.

This should also cause in a drop in current draw.

I would guess that your cap is charging faster because of the increased Q so energy is being tranfered more efficiently from your source to your load (the cap).

Though this doesn't neccessarily mean that iron core is better than air core. By using an iron core you will also have losses though hysteresis and eddy currents in the core.

An air core coil won't have these losses though when operating at the same frequency and duty cycly more energy will be lost through the coils resistance because of the higher amp draw. An air core coil will operate more efficeintly than iron core at higher frequencies as this will reduce current draw and it won't have any core losses.

In your first video you show the voltage output in an open circuit is reduced when using a core. This will be because of the hysteresis of the core. The voltage induced in a coil is dependant on the rate of change of the magnetic field around the coil. Iron has far higher hysteresis than air so the magnetic field of an iron core coil will collapse slower than an air core coil resulting in lower voltage output.

EDIT: Ah! I see there IS a drop in current so that helps support what what I'm saying

[sucahyo]

I agree that air core have field collapse faster and make the voltage higher. As for current, I get more confuse when I redo the experiment.

Just done the recording, uploading will take a while.
I will post the video at separate thread since this is not about spike anymore.

[SkyWatcher]

Hi folks, posted this in solid state thread 'Hi folks, I rewired my joule thief circuit to this one by Sephiroth, it is even more efficient causing next to no heat in transistor and more output, maybe with the resistor going from the collector to the base its turning on the transistor more effectively and the bifilar not being connected at the high voltage flyback. This circuit is working very well, I would recommend folks try this one, since I've built Bedini's and the JT, this is even better.' Thanks for posting this circuit, though ive also come to the conclusion that darlington's cause excessive heating in transistors for whatever reasons in these self oscillators.
peace love light
Tyson