Question about low drag energizer

[tmarconi]

Hi all,

I have a question relating to the image from pg. 55 of the Bedini SG Advanced book.
The image shows the sequence of events when the magnet is just leaving the position
over the energizer coil. I hope reproducing it here is acceptable.

lowdrag.png

The explanation states that, while the diode conducts in the trigger window defined by the difference in capacitor
and peak coil voltage, current is delivered to the capacitor AND a mechanical Lenz reaction is created against the
passing magnet, weakening its attraction to the iron core.

So, I think I understand the part where one aspect of Lenz's reaction is minimized because the current is only allowed to flow when the magnet
is still almost vertically above the core and so the attraction is mostly perpendicular to the direction of rotation.

What I don't understand is, why does triggering the current at this particular window weaken the magnet attraction to the core?
As the N-magnet starts to leave the core, the current that it tries to generate in the coil (through the flux change in the core) will always
create a magnetic field with S-pole oriented towards the leaving N-magnet, attracting it back to the core.

So in that case, no matter when you allow the current to flow, it should still attract the N-magnet back.
I have re-read this and the section on Lenz's law many times but I'm just having trouble working it out.

Could someone with more knowledge maybe clarify / correct my mistakes ?

Thanks
T

[bistander]

Hi all,

I have a question relating to the image from pg. 55 of the Bedini SG Advanced book.
The image shows the sequence of events when the magnet is just leaving the position
over the energizer coil. I hope reproducing it here is acceptable.

lowdrag.png

The explanation states that, while the diode conducts in the trigger window defined by the difference in capacitor
and peak coil voltage, current is delivered to the capacitor AND a mechanical Lenz reaction is created against the
passing magnet, weakening its attraction to the iron core.

So, I think I understand the part where one aspect of Lenz's reaction is minimized because the current is only allowed to flow when the magnet
is still almost vertically above the core and so the attraction is mostly perpendicular to the direction of rotation.

What I don't understand is, why does triggering the current at this particular window weaken the magnet attraction to the core?
As the N-magnet starts to leave the core, the current that it tries to generate in the coil (through the flux change in the core) will always
create a magnetic field with S-pole oriented towards the leaving N-magnet, attracting it back to the core.

So in that case, no matter when you allow the current to flow, it should still attract the N-magnet back.
I have re-read this and the section on Lenz's law many times but I'm just having trouble working it out.

Could someone with more knowledge maybe clarify / correct my mistakes ?

Thanks
T

Hi T,
I'll give it a shot.
1.)
The magnet is always attracted to the core. This force is cogging.
2.)
Forget about "vertical" force. There is equal and opposite force force maintaining the air air gap so the only forces of concern are in the direction (+ or -) of the motion.
3.)
The force resulting from load current and changing flux thru the coil due to motion of the magnet always opposes motion.
4.)
A voltage is induced in the coil resulting from a changing current and self induction. This voltage has polarity to tend to induce current which will oppose the force* causing the initial change in current.

*Since this force opposed motion, the force resulting from #4 will assist motion.

bi

[tmarconi]

Hey Bi,

thanks for the reply.

I still get stuck between steps 3 and 4.

In step 3 you wrote: The force resulting from load current and changing flux thru the coil due to motion of the magnet always opposes motion.
Which means that in the case of magnet N-face towards the coil, as it is leaving the position straight above it, the flux change through the coil
core is such that it induces a current which no matter in what direction the coil is wound, creates a S-field at the top, attracting the leaving magnet
which induced it. That is the way I understood Lenz's law.

Now in 4, you write that a voltage is induced in the coil due to a changing current and self induction. This is what I don't understand.
Are you saying that the changing current in the coil, generated by voltage in the coil due to the flux change of the leaving magnet, induces another voltage in the
coil which then creates a N-field facing the magnet, thereby assisting motion?

[bistander]

Hey Bi,

thanks for the reply.

I still get stuck between steps 3 and 4.

In step 3 you wrote: The force resulting from load current and changing flux thru the coil due to motion of the magnet always opposes motion.
Which means that in the case of magnet N-face towards the coil, as it is leaving the position straight above it, the flux change through the coil
core is such that it induces a current which no matter in what direction the coil is wound, creates a S-field at the top, attracting the leaving magnet
which induced it. That is the way I understood Lenz's law.

Now in 4, you write that a voltage is induced in the coil due to a changing current and self induction. This is what I don't understand.
Are you saying that the changing current in the coil, generated by voltage in the coil due to the flux change of the leaving magnet, induces another voltage in the
coil which then creates a N-field facing the magnet, thereby assisting motion?

Yes. The result is the superposition. And I suspect contribution from self induction to be rather small to the point of being negligible. If you feel differently, I suggest you explore other sources in the literature or do the calculations using a real life example. Guess I'd be curious of your findings but not enough to motivate me to do it myself.
bi

[tmarconi]

Well from this explanation I guess one would indeed suppose the contribution from the self-induction to be negligible, otherwise it seems one can keep twisting Lenz's principle unto itself endlessly ... but maybe I'm missing something.

However from what I have gathered there does seem to be an effect present in the low-drag energizer coils, so then I still wonder how that works ...

[bistander]

...
Are you saying that the changing current in the coil, generated by voltage in the coil due to the flux change of the leaving magnet, induces another voltage in the coil which then creates a N-field facing the magnet, thereby assisting motion?

Hi T,

Having reread your post, I see a point of confusion. Perhaps I should not have replied 'yes' so quickly to this question from you. It is not voltage due to flux change caused by departing magnet, but from voltage due to self induction of the coil in conjunction with a changing current in the coil. In other words, another term(s) in the equation.

I write term(s) because the polarity of voltage due to self induction depends on the direction of the change in current (increasing or decreasing). And in your shown circuit, with diode and capacitor, that 'black area' on graph includes a peak with some increase/decrease before and after.

Hoping that helps.
bi

[tmarconi]

Ah, right. I feel like that was the missing piece.

So by allowing the current to flow only around that peak window, we make use of the fact that on the
steeper part (while the voltage is still increasing negatively, while the magnet is leaving) the field
generated towards the magnet due to self-induction be an N-field. The trigger window also includes a bit
of the other side of the peak, when the negative voltage starts returning to zero. But there the slope is less
so the opposite effect of self-induction generating an S-field (attracting the leaving magnet) will be less, producing
a net effect.

Am I close ?

[jettis]

I think the authors of the SG book are trying to show that you can take a small amount of voltage, clip the wave basically for free or almost for free. Think about that. If you have enough of these waves clipped you can basically have the machine power produce more power than used to rotate it.


An example would be to build one power coil on a 6” rotor with four all North magnets, now build a second independent rotor of 20 inches (attached to the same shaft as your 6” rotor) with 24 all north magnets and start attaching low drag generator coils one by one and see how much you can get out of the machine. If there is not enough power to get what you want add a second power coil to the 6 inch rotor and electrically connect that coil with the first primary coil, connect them in series. That will require more voltage on the primary but this will give more flyback energy for equal current. Order Paul Babcock’s most recent video it should help you.


You could also do this on one wheel, but you need a separate trigger. For example if you had 24 magnets on a rotor only trigger fire the transistor )on four of the magnets and not on the remaining 20 magnets on the rotor.



These are rough figures to get people thinking outside the box on these systems. If you are running off four magnets and generating off of 20 magnets you have a machine that is out of equilibrium, how much out of equilibrium depends how many generating sections you have vs the power sections.



Dave Wing

[tmarconi]

Hey Jettis,

Thanks for the reply. I mainly had trouble understanding what exactly happened during the clipping of the negative peak that caused the low-drag effect.
How I see it now (my previous post) is that the clipping doesn't eliminate Lenz drag, but reduces it, and this together with the flyback recovery of the motor coil mainly lowers the losses. The main energy gain in the SG system still comes from conversion of the radiant spike in the battery, via a bounce by electret effect.
At least that's how I understood the book.

In fact I had been planning to have a look at several of the latest presentations, including the one you mentioned.
The asymmetric rotor ideas are interesting, I will think about it a bit more.

best
T

[jettis]

In the generation process in the image of the first post in this thread shows the generating coil creating a bucking effect north against north, (north magnet against north coil core) after it is attracted in.

When you look at a north faced magnet the steel core is attracted in and you normally have to pay to get it back out when rotating, the rotational momentum given by the magnetics is given back on the way out and added to the rotational friction losses, conventional generation is also added to the losses as well in this mechanical system. This is normal classical Lenz law, however the Bedini system circumvents this to a degree, losses are minimal, for the most part it keeps your rotational speed while you generate.

Dave Wing