Bedini motor why stress can only use ceramic magnets?

[yx630514]

In this excellent forum to seriously study a lot of Bedini motor information, do not understand why you can not use a strong magnetic force neodymium magnet, but was chosen the weak magnetic ceramic magnet? What is the reason for this choice?

Neodymium magnets and ceramic magnet used the main parameters of indicators is as follows:

.........................Remanence****Max Energy Product****Coercive Force
..............................(Br)..................(BH) Max......................(iHc)
........................-------------------------------------------------------
.............................Gauss...................KJ/m3........................KA/m
........................-------------------------------------------------------
NdFeB magnets........12000....................275.........................>955
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ceramic magnets.......3800.....................26............................300
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Which parameter determines the Bedini motor does not choose to use Neodymium magnets? Instead choose to use ceramic magnets is more reasonable? If simply because of NdFeB magnetic force is too strong, then can use the scaled-down size neodymium magnets?

The following is a provider of mail-order Web site Beddini suite, but also to sell neodymium magnets, I really do not understand: the east that can not be used neodymium magnets, neodymium magnets can be used on the west, how to choose? You help me?

Truth In Heart CREDIT CARD ORDERING CENTER


Thanks!

[citfta]

Magnet choice

The type of magnet you choose depends on what you are trying to do. If you are building the SSG or simplified school girl circuit for charging and rejuvenating batteries you want the weaker magnets. In the SSG the magnetic field is only used to trigger the transistor. It is not used for generating power. If you use a strong magnet it will saturate the trigger winding and the SSG will not perform well. If you are building the window motor you want strong magnets so you will have strong torque. That is why Rick sells both kinds of magnets. If you need more information there are a couple of threads here about the SSG and a couple more about the window motor.


Hope this helps, Carroll

[Sephiroth]

Citfta has pretty much covered it

Neos are fine if you are using air core, or perhaps met glass (geussing). But for any standard ferrite core material, being exposed to the ridiculously strong field of a neo will saturate the core and turn it into a permanent magnet that prevents the field from collapsing efficiently.

As citfta said... on the ssg the magnets are just for triggering

[theremart]

Why not neo?

In this excellent forum to seriously study a lot of Bedini motor information, do not understand why you can not use a strong magnetic force neodymium magnet, but was chosen the weak magnetic ceramic magnet? What is the reason for this choice?

Neodymium magnets and ceramic magnet used the main parameters of indicators is as follows:

.........................Remanence****Max Energy Product****Coercive Force
..............................(Br)..................(BH) Max......................(iHc)
........................-------------------------------------------------------
.............................Gauss...................KJ/m3........................KA/m
........................-------------------------------------------------------
NdFeB magnets........12000....................275.........................>955
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ceramic magnets.......3800.....................26............................300
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Which parameter determines the Bedini motor does not choose to use Neodymium magnets? Instead choose to use ceramic magnets is more reasonable? If simply because of NdFeB magnetic force is too strong, then can use the scaled-down size neodymium magnets?

The following is a provider of mail-order Web site Beddini suite, but also to sell neodymium magnets, I really do not understand: the east that can not be used neodymium magnets, neodymium magnets can be used on the west, how to choose? You help me?

Truth In Heart CREDIT CARD ORDERING CENTER


Thanks!

I think you need to look at the context of where it is not recommended. For beginners neos are not what you want on the school girl motor if you are trying to step people thru the process of building the SSG. If you notice in the advance groups they do use neos like on the window motors.

You have to learn tricks with the neo. As Bedini states, they do saturate the trigger winding, and can make the timing on the triggering tricky. You can over come this with optos, reed switches or other means to improve the triggering, but this is better not for a newbie.

I always work against the rules myself, and I went with neos and ceramics right off just to test the difference myself. Both work, both do the job, but... if you were in charge of a forum and instead of fighting a group of newbies explaining the exact right place to put the reed switch, and why the coils should not be so close, I may think that I would push the newbies to the ceramics myself.

Another big factor is the amount of drag when used with iron the neos have. Yes, you can change the core material to something that has less drag even remove the core, and it does work, but.... again if you are trying to teach a concept, it is better to start all on the same playing field.

I can see why you would want to start with the bicycle wheel, it is common to all, and if you set a standard for the build, then you can help them out because you are all talking the same language. I believe the goal of the Yahoo group for newbies was to establish the working concept.

These are my guesses as to why neos are not recommended. There may be other reasons like the shape of the magnetic field.

An another factor may be how cheap the ceramics are as compared to neos, you can get more people building these things if you are using cheaper materials.

These are my best guesses as to why, I love working with neos because of how strong they are, I hate working with neos because of how strong they are.

[baroutologos]

Agree fully with Sephiroth.
If you study and play at least for a year with your SSG you realize magnets are not essential at all for a SSG circuit to work. They procure only the triggering, despite the enormous para-philology developed by Bedini regarding scalar souths, magnetic current, core precharging etc etc.

Apart from triggering of course, magnets provide a minor mechanical energy output. (that solid state do not have)

[yx630514]

Thank citfta, Sephiroth, theremart, baroutologos appropriate advice:

Bedini School Girl Motor and other forms of monopole experiments I have done, now are preparing to replicate the window motor, then I can now use neodymium magnets?

But I see many replicate of the window motor is still used in ceramic magnets, why? Because it is cheaper?

If are using Neodymium magnets, magnet size do reduce the need for appropriate?

attachment figure is the introduction of neodymium magnets volume decrease after the hint.

[Sephiroth]

Thank citfta, Sephiroth, theremart, baroutologos appropriate advice:

Bedini School Girl Motor and other forms of monopole experiments I have done, now are preparing to replicate the window motor, then I can now use neodymium magnets?

But I see many replicate of the window motor is still used in ceramic magnets, why? Because it is cheaper?

If are using Neodymium magnets, magnet size do reduce the need for appropriate?

attachment figure is the introduction of neodymium magnets volume decrease after the hint.

I can give you a bit of information that might help you decide between the two The weaker the magnets you use, the FASTER the motor will run. The stronger the magnets you use, the SLOWER it will run.

However torque is the other way around. Stronger magnets will give you more torque at low rpm than weak magnets.

Think of magnet strength as gears on a bike. Normally a bike has two sets of gears. one on the pedals, and one on the back wheel, right?

The strength of the magnets on the rotor is one of your gears, the other set of gears is the inductance of your stator coils. The stronger the magnet, (or the more turns you have on the coil) the LOWER the gear. The weaker the magnet (or the lower the turns on the coil), the HIGHER the gear.

This is one aspect of impedance matching

ps : if I were to choose between the images you posted, I would go with the last one. You want the poles to be as close together as possible, so I would recommend using flatter magnets with their edges touching. This is for both ceramics and neos with the window motors.

[area46241]

wire sizes...

Hello forum members I have been kicking around the Bedini circuit for some time and I was currious why is the bifilar coil is wound with two different sizes of wire? I have three sizes on huge spools but have been reluctant to use them. the first is thinner than human hair. the second is more stout about hair size and the other is very thick around say .030 of an inch. Can a bifilar be wound with the same size wire and still work?

[Sephiroth]

Hello forum members I have been kicking around the Bedini circuit for some time and I was currious why is the bifilar coil is wound with two different sizes of wire? I have three sizes on huge spools but have been reluctant to use them. the first is thinner than human hair. the second is more stout about hair size and the other is very thick around say .030 of an inch. Can a bifilar be wound with the same size wire and still work?

It will work but it is a bit of a waste... in part of my "how to" videos I show why a thinner gauge wire is used for the trigger coil

YouTube - How to Build a Bedini Motor ... Part 2

[ewizard]

One other detail that might be of interest. I picked this info up from some magnet healing devices being discussed in a book. Neo's are stronger but have less 'reach'. Ceramics may be weaker close up but their field of reach extends further than a Neo magnet. I'm not at all sure why or how that works - maybe the shape of the field being created. It might be something along the lines of a beam of light from a reflector - big reflector with a small bulb throws further than a small reflector with a big bulb. Maybe the ceramic focuses the field to throw further with less overall power.

[sucahyo]

One other detail that might be of interest. I picked this info up from some magnet healing devices being discussed in a book. Neo's are stronger but have less 'reach'. Ceramics may be weaker close up but their field of reach extends further than a Neo magnet. I'm not at all sure why or how that works - maybe the shape of the field being created. It might be something along the lines of a beam of light from a reflector - big reflector with a small bulb throws further than a small reflector with a big bulb. Maybe the ceramic focuses the field to throw further with less overall power.

Lol, and for all this time I thought that caused by size... because I have thin neo which it's field/reach is considerably smaller than my speaker magnet, and this neo is a lot stronger. A test with CRT monitor or TV should show it. A big car speaker magnet can give gauss effect up to one meter away... Never have Neo big/thick enough to compare though.

Maybe because a strong magnet will do intern flux flowing more. If we attach neo to iron thicker than the neo, it will practically have no stickyness left after the iron.

[Matthew Jones]

Seph wrote...Neos are fine if you are using air core, or perhaps met glass (geussing). But for any standard ferrite core material, being exposed to the ridiculously strong field of a neo will saturate the core and turn it into a permanent magnet that prevents the field from collapsing efficiently.

He also said...

However torque is the other way around. Stronger magnets will give you more torque at low rpm than weak magnets.

theremart wrote... Another big factor is the amount of drag when used with iron the neos have. Yes, you can change the core material to something that has less drag even remove the core, and it does work, but....

I don't want to pick a fight or anything and I am not suggesting to run out and try build your first monopole or whatever with neo's but I have to point out that these 3 statement are just plain wrong and without thought.

The first statement by Seph, states the strong magnetic field saturating the magnetic material in the core will prevent a proper collapse. This is wrong.
If the magnet is a North magnet saturating iron inside a opposed north wound coil, and the iron has become saturated, that would make the iron on the top of the coil a SOUTH POLE. This alone will only cause the field to collapse at a faster rate. The field may not expand as far. But this can be a plus. You can add magnets at a closer tolerance and successfully fire them.

THIS is also a free Anti Lenz effect. The neo will pull into a south charge piece of iron quicker than just iron. This is very noticeable in RPMs. A person can build a coil with copper coated welding rods as recommended in Bedinis plan and can build a like coil with pure (98%) iron welding rods. Saturate the iron core. Use the same magnets on the wheel and you will get higher speed from the saturated core. Test it.

This leads to the next statement from Seph and theremart's statement. Speed or torque is all depending on timing.
The Neo's have a firm field, ceramics have a spongy field. The neo just need to be fired sooner rather than later, quicker rather than longer. Speed and torque both at the same time, for less energy.

There is also a fact about Neo's in an Open Loop motor that no one mentions.
You always fire the magnet away after it passes the core. With a neo magnet the passing a of the magnet over the core generates energy. If all your goal is, is to tap the ground to make the current move briefly, to raise the potential, and then discharge it into the another battery, this generated energy is collectible or at least can be used to recover loss from tapping the ground.
Neo's also show a curled field effect when they are close together. The field from the north pole returning to the south is moving in a opposite direction ans the field leaving the north pole. 2 magnets side by side will have a really dense curled field. This field can also produce energy, and comes at no cost in the form of Lenz Effect.

Neo's work. They are not detriment in any way if use them correctly.

A monopole does not need to go fast or have torque, So i would agree with theremart about the financial pro's to using ceramics.

Matt

[Murlin]

reason to use ceramic magnets

Off the top of my head I can say positively that a huge advantage of using ceramics is that you can machine dovetails for mounting, drill 'em, and...well...machine them in any shape you want.

Neos are extremely brittle and mostly plated. They omit dangerous gasses when machined and the dust can be explosive.

Do not machine on a neo unless you are a griding pro and do it before plating.

meh 002...


regards,

Murlin

[area46241]

Thankyou

THANKYOU INTROVERTABRATE!!! great video
that was the video my fuzzy brain could not remember...
does the transistor need a heat sink?

[Sephiroth]

He also said...

I don't want to pick a fight or anything and I am not suggesting to run out and try build your first monopole or whatever with neo's but I have to point out that these 3 statement are just plain wrong and without thought.

The first statement by Seph, states the strong magnetic field saturating the magnetic material in the core will prevent a proper collapse. This is wrong.
If the magnet is a North magnet saturating iron inside a opposed north wound coil, and the iron has become saturated, that would make the iron on the top of the coil a SOUTH POLE. This alone will only cause the field to collapse at a faster rate. The field may not expand as far. But this can be a plus. You can add magnets at a closer tolerance and successfully fire them.

You make a good point about the field orientation with the core so I might be wrong there but I'm sticking to my guns with the second statement. You're right that timing also plays a part, but my comparison of neos and ceramics to gears is true when all other factors are equal.

@area46241 - I find a 2N3055 shouldn't heat up on an ssg as long as you keep it under 250ma per transistor...