capacitor choice for Bedini classic 3-pole (conference 3-pole)

[meehow.kailan]

I'm am currently experimenting with the Bedini Classic (conference) 3-pole device.

After reading more and more about this technology I'm realizing that having a charging capacitor to zap the charging battery is the way to go, however, I don't know what kind of capacitor to use.

If I am using two 12V 7AH SLA batteries, one for the Primary and one for Charging, what is the recommended capacitor?

is it better to have a 600V 10uF pulsed at 10Hz? or 25V 10,000uf at some other frequency?

I'm sure there's lots of different choices based on set up but I'm just wondering where to start.

Also, can I feed back the capacitor pulses into the Primary battery? or should I avoid that all together.

thank you in advance.

[FRC]

I am not sure myself, but the one they use for the inverted circuit, with
some of the Bedini kits going to the charging battery is 10uf 250v Datasheet PDF



FRC

[FRC]

Pdf

I guess that document.pdf didn't come through. You can find it near the
bottom parts section at Renaissance Charge CREDIT CARD ORDERING CENTER



FRC

[Mark]

With all the testing I have done I have never found that dumping a capacitor into a secondary battery was more effective then letting the spikes go directly into the secondary battery. I would be interested if anyone has found anything different.

Mark

[Farmhand]

Hi meehow.kailan, I agree with Mark, allthough capacitor dischargers have thier uses and it's worth having a cap discharger for your Three Pole.

In my opinion, which is formed from experimenting and research, I think there are two best ways to go. The capacitors should be at least 250 volt as the spike would be over 100 volts most likely. A 25 volt electrolytic cap won't like that.

1. A small capacitance dumped at fairly high relative voltage, say 10uf at 24 to 48 volts or so even higher, this would give the battery a sharp jab of reletively low energy. Most use non polarized "audio crossover" type caps for this. As FRC linked.

2. A large capacitance dumped at a few volts over the battery, say 400uf to a few thousand uf at anywhere from 2 to 6 volts or more above the battery. This would give the battery a big thump of a fair bit of energy. And produce some amps. Electrolytic caps for this.

My preference is number two. I have charged 75 000 uf of caps to 48 volts and when dumped to a battery I see 3.5 amps of cuurent pulse. Which impressed me.

I have tried the inbetween ground with little success.

For 7 Ah batteries I would suggest a 400 volt 470 uf or so cap dumped at 18 to 24 volts. I think Truth in Heart has some 500 uf caps for sale and the prices are good there. Having said that its not as easy as it sounds sometimes. Depending on the method to trigger the dump and the device used for switching. It is usually best to switch the negative line because the spikes can be absorbed by the battery a bit as the cap gets full. No switching device in the positive line kinda thing. It can be done both ways though. I don't use timers to dump yet, I try to have the rising voltage trigger the switch to dump.

Hope that helps.

Regards.

P.S. I don't think the actual frequency is as important as the efficiency or effectiveness of the power transfer and the effect it has on the battery, overall. I would liken the first method to another type of spiking and the second to current pulsing.

[minoly]

Meehow,
the difference is night and day. if you are not seeing better charging, you are doing something wrong. the add on gear kit comes w/ cap and ckt and timing wheel for cap dump.
Accessory gear YouTube - 3 Pole Monopole Gear Kit
you can find it at the potential tech site. difficult to build yourself at that price.
however, we did do it w/ legos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npoGcZJBTi4

[Mark]

Meehow,
the difference is night and day. if you are not seeing better charging, you are doing something wrong. the add on gear kit comes w/ cap and ckt and timing wheel for cap dump.
Accessory gear YouTube - 3 Pole Monopole Gear Kit
you can find it at the potential tech site. difficult to build yourself at that price.
however, we did do it w/ legos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npoGcZJBTi4

Minoly,

Are you saying that you get better charging with a cap dump setup? If you are then have you used a battery that was discharged down to around 12.2 volts? And after charging up to a certain voltage let the battery rest for say 12hrs and check the resting voltage? Do 2 timed charges with a discharged battery and a 12 hr rest period, one with the cap discharge and one without and see what your results are. I have never had better charging with the camp dump and I have tried different cap sizes and different amp dump sizes. With a fully charged battery it may appear that it charges faster at times but I have found that not to be the case.

Mark

[kippered]

@ meehow good question.

I look forward to having some spare time over the next few days and plan to start testing with cap dumping. My plan is to cap dump from the gen coil back into the drive batt at a voltage level somewhere around 14V via a bridge rectifier and a SCR. At a post from Farmhand on the other thread I am going to be very careful in picking my SCR as the trick is in getting them to shutoff at the right voltage level.

I am picking the primary battery because my guess is that the gen coil power is standard 'hot' current and when coupled to the drive battery will only add some extra juice or run time to the drive circuit which uses the 'hot' type power to establish the magnetic field.

Anyhow LOTS to test and catch up on, will post most of my results over here:

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...e-meeting.html

Thanks all for the continued input lets make 2011 a fun one and a revolutionary one!

[minoly]

Minoly,

Are you saying that you get better charging with a cap dump setup? If you are then have you used a battery that was discharged down to around 12.2 volts? And after charging up to a certain voltage let the battery rest for say 12hrs and check the resting voltage? Do 2 timed charges with a discharged battery and a 12 hr rest period, one with the cap discharge and one without and see what your results are. I have never had better charging with the camp dump and I have tried different cap sizes and different amp dump sizes. With a fully charged battery it may appear that it charges faster at times but I have found that not to be the case.

Mark

I just re-read that for tone - that was a horrible post - sorry
have you played around with the timing of the cap dump - timing is everything - pay close attention to where exactly you are dumping relative to the N/S magnet pass - remember the invisible scalar south. Also, try ditching the trigger coil - use a hall for trigger.

[Mark]

I just re-read that for tone - that was a horrible post - sorry
have you played around with the timing of the cap dump - timing is everything - pay close attention to where exactly you are dumping relative to the N/S magnet pass - remember the invisible scalar south. Also, try ditching the trigger coil - use a hall for trigger.

Minoly,

I am talking about dumping into a secondary battery. It is irrelevent where the magnets are or the scalar south is or even the hall trigger. I'm just talking about the charging method itself of using a cap dump setup compared to just using the spikes. I use an SCR and it is self triggered by the charge.

Have you personally found cap dumping to be more efficient then using the spike directly into a secondary battery? If you have then I recommend you perform the test I suggested before to verify your findings.

Please dont take this as an attack I'm just interested if others have found something different then me.

Mark

[minoly]

cap choice

Minoly,

I am talking about dumping into a secondary battery. It is irrelevent where the magnets are or the scalar south is or even the hall trigger. I'm just talking about the charging method itself of using a cap dump setup compared to just using the spikes. I use an SCR and it is self triggered by the charge.

Have you personally found cap dumping to be more efficient then using the spike directly into a secondary battery? If you have then I recommend you perform the test I suggested before to verify your findings.

Please dont take this as an attack I'm just interested if others have found something different then me.

Mark

That is exactly what I am talking about

Meehow,
the kit comes w/ something like this:
400V 560UF Aluminum Electrolytic Capacitor
hope this helps...

[greekstile]

Hi all. Been a member here for a bit, but mostly lurking. I post more on the bm2 group.

Anyway, some good discussion on the 3pm. Just wanted to chime in. I think its important that we distinguish between the cap dump ckt with the timing wheel and the cap pulser ckt. While similarly featured, they are different. I have run both on the 3pm.

The cap dump w/timing wheel is run off the generator coil, dumped to a cap via FWBR, timed and dumped via reed to the primary, secondary, or another battery. You find out pretty quickly that the one generator coil doesn't give you much power. But add in 2 more in series with the first, and you get some serious voltage. The problem quickly becomes the reed switching. The reed ends up sticking. Its just not a good method to trigger the dump here. Suggestions welcome for alternatives. Now, the beauty of this setup comes from the drag induced by the 3 generator coils. If you have done your homework, you will find a sweet spot not only in trigger resistance, but also rpm. So this setup not only gives you extra charging power through the circuit itself, it also boosts the charging to the secondary as well by allowing you to keep the motor from speeding up out of that sweet spot.

The cap pulser is the the back end circuit dumped into a cap via FWBR and dumped via 555/SCR into charging battery. I haven't had enough time to test charging compared to straight radiant ssg charging. However, in the limited runs i have done, charging is faster. Also, in this configuration, you can rotate the batteries, which you cannot do in a traditional ssg setup. Or, heck, just dump it right back to primary. Another cool thing about this setup, you could run it off the regular ssg output, or isolated via a secondary winding.

Either way, both of these circuits offer advantages and flexibility when added onto the ssg.

Just my 2cents.

Happy new year all!

Jason S.

[Mark]

[QUOTE=minoly;124008]That is exactly what I am talking about

What do you mean by this?

You still have not answered my question. Have you personally found cap dumping to be more efficient then using the spike directly into a secondary battery?

[FRC]

Meehow, you maybe interested in this video. I think it relates to your question.

YouTube - bedini 3pole mono with scr cap dec28 2010.wmv


FRC

[minoly]

Cap dumping

You can use that timing wheel to do both - dump the Ginny-generator-pick-up-coil as well as the radiant “cap pulser” style dump. You don’t have to use a reed either, use a hall, use an opto switch, slap a piece of copper on there and use a couple of brushes…. You can use that wheel to time multiple devices, use it to power off the energizer while backpopping the primary… the only limit is our imagination.

There are a few reasons your reed will stick, very high voltage and current are a couple, you can switch more often and add a magnet to the reed - watch this vid - see how he uses magnets in proximity to reeds - and look up reed switching.
YouTube - Magluvin's Channel
It’s all in the balance, that’s why JB wants people to learn not replicate.

@ all we are not that fond of the SCR cap dump, it does work better than directly to the battery due to the lower impedance of an appropriate capacitor, however there are more benefits to be taken advantage of with timing if you use the wheel.

@Mark, yes, that is exactly what I’m talking about.