Bedini Earth Light

[John_Bedini]

Crystal Cells

Thank you John,
I definitely have the white oxide layer and the
Magnesium is NOT being digested.
What would you expect the maximal current fro
The cell? I have found that once you really juice it and the electrolyte solidifies, the galvanic is done.
Have you seen current be less affected by desiccation than voltage?
Just wondering.
I know what I have is not a Mg/Carbon galvanic cell.
Thank you so much again,
Very best regards,
Jim

Jim,
I would say that crystal cells have different ranges and levels of voltages. The real limiting factor is the cells impedance anywhere between 1.5 Meg Ohms to 350 Ohms, but does the cell stay at this impedance, NO. The cells sometimes seem that they are dead but that is far from the truth as Chuck and I found out. They can be shorted out by water and then dry out and be right back.

Alum forms an ever expanding crystal. So it is advisable to limit the amount of alum in the mix if you can. Sodium Carbonate will short itself out with to much water in the mix.

However an easy experiment to see, this is simple.

Rochelle Salts 3 spoons Epsom Salts 3 spoons, Alum 1/4 spoon. then copper and Magnesium, just plain copper will do. Heat this mix until it is just liquid and no further pour in a cup to emerse the electrodes in.
Polarize when it is in-between states, ( Between solid and Liquid) only do this one time and not at more then the voltage of the cell, say 1.5 volts that is it.
Now let set with a load on it. This load should be a meter and a resistor. when the load goes down add a couple drops of water and watch. Soon you will not need to add water for weeks.
Why the Alum crystal as it grows pulls water from the air. To even slow this process down more add flower drying silica. The current of the cell can be anything depending on the area of the electrodes, normal between 2 Ma to 35Ma. so by experimenting you can come up with the mix that works. Warning adding Sodium Carbonate to Alum causes a reaction the neutralizes the two chemicals.
Do the experiment until you understand how the water is locked up in the end and your circuit is still running.
John

[jehdds]

John,
Thank you again.
The reason I asked
About ZnO was that it absorbs water and
Co2 to make essentially zinc carbonate,
Thus perhaps a viable option.
More time with the mortar and
Pestle. So far my mixes happily digest
Water when totally desiccated. More work
For me to be sure.
Thank you so much again,
Very Best Regards,
Jim

[chuck H]

Rochelle crystals

@ Radiant1 and all.
The magnets change the way the crystal grows (the shape and length). Also be patient... sometimes it takes 2-3 days for them to grow if you did your mix correctly.

[chuck H]

Crystal cell/Mg

@ everyidea and and all:
The reaction that happens(heat) is the oxidation being removed from the Mg instantly. The Mg becomes very clean and shiny and way more conductive (then it is ph balanced instantly) Galvanic at that point is stopped or very minimal. Then the semi conductor type layer is in place as the H20 starts to go away... I may have not explained that very well though. It is a very fast process. I guess you could look at it as it is a semi conductor already but this process makes it a semi conductor that is usefull in this application. You take away the bad oxides and replace it with 1 that is usefull...

[NextGen1967]

Lidmotor,
I guess your not having any luck with the chemistry. The Carbonate Cell is constructed as I said to Ibpointlass, and yes I did build his cell to check the current. The Star Cell design take advantage of the pattern of the center electrode. You Guys need to think this one out.
Heating Copper forms Corpus copper the P device. Now leave that in the oven or flame until you get the black oxide layer over the red and leave it alone, do not scrape it. you now have two layers N and P. The chemicals must be pure no substitutes or you think you know better. Do the simple experiments first with the salt substitute and borax as Ibpointlass did.
It would be much better if you would use the Magnesium Cup as I did, it has already been pointed out how to get the oxide layer on the Magnesium so I do not want to repeat that. Take the cell that far first with what Ibpointless did without the glue as that is just a binder you need to form something like a cement crystal that will harden. Get it to this step first then we will take this a step further. And no that is not what Marcus is doing as I said before everybody would be hard pressed to make that Hydrate including Me. Even if I know the Mix I have had no success making it as something seems to be missing. However I do understand the Chemistry and can make other things do the same thing with far more power in Ma.
You just need to take your time in building it as it is not easy as it looks.
John B

John,

Having made the red and black layer (sorry I stubborn and used a binder, but it seemed to work anyhow), I made another one in the original way and noticed no (direct) difference... I would advice tough to use JB's pure method.

However, I later on also made the oxide layer on the magnesium strip, which allowed me to do something I also would really advise others to do, to just SEE the effect... Once you SEE this, you will maybe better understand it.

Once you have a piece of copper plate with the 2 said layers and the magnesium ribbon with oxide layer, place the DMM probes on each metal, and then just touch (WITHOUT any MIX, and just DRY) the Mg strip -of course ONLY the layered part- on the copper plate... place it at several positions and be amazed

by using NO water and NO mix, one will read anywhere between 0.5 to 1.86 volts (1.86 volts would mean you made an almost perfect PN layer).

Without this PN layer, things in a later stadium might go wrong, and the N layer on top is important for having a better current output later on when you try the mix as JB said, and continue to try different mixes.

An intriguing note:

While touching these electrodes dry together, we can get great voltage, but next to no amperage (at least with my Mg oxide layer at this moment).

An exception to this is Jim's ZnO mix (not a ZINC electrode, but a mix that contains ZnO), he is able to produce CURRENT (and quite a lot) when doing the same said dry touching... This -to me- is quite amazing, and in my opinion needs more attention also. In my opinion, the oxide layer on his Mg metal is different in some ways.

A good way to check if your oxide layer on the magnesium strip is -more or less- correct, is to measure its resistance... Place one lead of the DMM on an edge of the magnesium that is NON layered, and place the other lead of your meter over the layered part... Probing at many spots, you would need to have an 'open' resistance reading (meaning >40Mohm)... Even when you WET the OXIDIZED part, you still would read an open reading.. if not, the oxide layer is unlikely to work correct and you will have an galvanic action.

Also, I agree with JB, that it is not like in the MR picture, the PN layer simply makes out a -kind of- IGBT in combination with the Mg metal itself (having an NPN type), and it is *this* part that could be very well the amplifier part JB was mentioning, and this gate also controls the amount of current flow (together with the -kind of- diode at the other end, and the mix part). Well, that is -my interpretation of it anyhow-

--
Ron.

[NextGen1967]

@ everyidea and and all:
The reaction that happens(heat) is the oxidation being removed from the Mg instantly. The Mg becomes very clean and shiny and way more conductive (then it is ph balanced instantly) Galvanic at that point is stopped or very minimal. Then the semi conductor type layer is in place as the H20 starts to go away... I may have not explained that very well though. It is a very fast process. I guess you could look at it as it is a semi conductor already but this process makes it a semi conductor that is usefull in this application. You take away the bad oxides and replace it with 1 that is usefull...

Chuck,

That is indeed kind of a cryptic way of explanation (to me)....

Let me try to explain what -i think- you just said.... (not to sure)...

You have the magnesium metal, and then -by a quick process- the already -bad- existing oxide layer is removed, and the magnesium metal becomes shiny.

However, is this magnesium metal now complete (as in end processing), or *now* it is a good time to place the correct layer over it? (I really think it is the later part - Am I correct in this assumption?).

If I am allowed, this fast process might be achieved by A (not necessarily THE) mix - right? (I hinted already earlier as of how to do this). This mix takes away the bad layer (the standard air caused oxide layer, which is a conductor type layer, which we do not want), and this A mix would change in opaqueness through this process ? It is a rather violent process, that is why I used the wording attacked earlier on.

--
Ron.

[jehdds]

Guys,
FYI, you can use the rectified output
Of a Kromrey to polarize.
Small test cell last night charged to 2.8v,9mA.
Need to explore this more.
I whacked it 200v 200mA. Seemed to raise the level a little.
I think it takes less time to make the oxide this way.
Time will tell.
Very best regards,
Jim

[NextGen1967]

If you're good at reading between the lines and merging it with what has been said then you'll understand Chuck's post. There's been talk of four different layers put onto Mg; ZnO, MgO, Mg(OH)2 and Cl. Seeing that Cl has been discussed as a CO2 converter and that HCL acid can heat and strip Mg oxides in a flash and bond with Mg to form a MgCL layer, it would be deduced that this is the process Chuck is talking about for use in their CO2 producing carbonate cells.

Ron's cells are very interesting too, seeing current can be produced with the touching of the coated electrodes. I agree with both ron and JB regarding the toughness of getting the layering of the Cu to stick. In my tests, the CuO wants to "pop" off when the Cu+Cu2O cools after heating. I agree that using a binder or evaporation method would be an easier way to ensure its placement.

I posted the MR cell to help understand what he was doing, not the JB's carbonate cell. It's a starting point. After reading MR's papers, there is a great deal of resonant balancing that he does between electromagnetic and mechanical properties, along with resistance balancing, electron training and plate design. I now agree with JB that making a MR cell would be like patting your head, rubbing your belly, while riding a unicycle on a tight rope. But, it can be done...

rw

Yes, seems correct :-)

These methods by the way (often in dual mode) can be done in pure chemical way as well in call it electrochemical way (zap it with current, to 'bake' the layer). Jim has some very good video's on his Youtube channel about this.

Tough it are not my cells that produce current but Jim's ones (the ZnO type). My ones are good in high voltage, but low amperage.. I got some 10 to 12uA, using a 20mm or so ribbon length.

Jim get slightly less voltage, but *much* more amperage, while using tiny electrodes.... with Zero water and electrolyte mix. To me this indicates some importance.

About the CuO... The website given earlier on how to do this best does a good job... I followed that way (minus the removing of the black layer of course), and got a 95% success rate on developing the black layer.. you can rub and tap it and it won't come off, it also doesn't crack anymore. the 5% failure rate is due to droplet spots (some 55 tiny of them), which show the reddish layer below. Next time I can avoid this error probably.

An interesting note: I used the same copper plate as before, but have cleaned it really thoroughly, and after scrubbing and washing, used the muriatic acid to get the copper clean to the bone. The side of the copper that i had previously used with a binder reached an success rate of nearly 100%... It has some 8 dots on it where the black layer is less thin, but nonetheless the layer is still there.

One thing that skips the mind easy is that after the layers has been made, on both electrodes, other mixes could serve as 'electrolyte'... One only need to stay within the borders of not using mixes that are to aggressive on the created layers.

I am lacking the ability to get powders/solutions etc. here in a timely manner, as -don't laugh- it takes me here between 21 to 90 days before a product reach me... so I will always walk somewhat behind hehe. It's just me being located in a part of the world that is not so advanced.... Got used to the slowness here tough.

I do really not know anything much about the MR cell (just recently when I came aware of this threat) I heard the term MR repeated over and over again, but I personally think it isn't that hard -have to stay positive- right :-)

It might be that once one opens an MR cell (which I assume is sealed airtight ?) *something* leaves the mix, so it cannot be analyzed anymore, unless you realized it must have been there in the first place... Something with about twice the mass of water, and which mimics its working. I forgot the name of it... its a long time ago I knew about it. Tough this is speculation on my part, since I never had an opportunity to order some of this product and play with its properties.

Jim's cell however gives -to me- much more confidence at the moment, due to the said high current production... I have so far no one seen done this, except JB with a huge glass like cell. I do NOT say to disregard chucks/JB's cells at all! let me make that clear. However 2 semiconductors touching each other with no fluids or mix in between producing current is as said unique to me. I have done this long before (with JB's copper oxide layers), but this had at that time involved heat to get the layers in conductive mode.

One more thing. I think it was chuck? who found out some very important aspect of the magnesium metal..... BEFORE applying (any type) of 'correct' layer on it, the old one that might be there has to be removed... this is extremely important since a minute tiny defect in the 'correct' layer would otherwise result in a *very* rapid deterioration of the layer due to the 'old' layer below it will cause the 'correct' layer to rapidly detach.

I per accident destroyed my 'correct' layer, and in my rush to create another one, I was to eager and rushing and due to that I got a very bad result.. It did look like perfect and it worked like perfect (well slightly less performance then i had before), but after a good inspection with some 200 probing spots, I found many tiny defects where the layer was less then optimal in resistance... Lesson, be sure to work correct and do not shortcut.

--
Ron.

[chuck H]

Carbonate cells

Heres a video showing some of the carbonate cells in series running a array of LEDS designed for 12 volt 2amp service. Also we show 2 cells running an osc circuit(note the brightness).

Carbonate cells in series.AVI - YouTube

[Slider2732]

2A !
Excellent and i'm looking forward to getting THERE eventually

The oxide layers are increasingly fascinating, especially with direct voltage obtainable with no mix.
It seems I can get a P junction fine, but am looking for another common material to gain an N. I'd like to build a transistor anyhow and remember the lady with her homemade versions on YouTube. Wondering if that process can relate to the cells. A seperate circuit built in that amplifies the generated output.

For grins, but hopefully of some use to others, I wondered just what water on it's own may do. A baseline of a thing, how much is this galvanic situation playing a part - what does the water hold within, on its own.
Made a coffee and was thinking about all this, when it dawned on me to simply stick the leftover boiled water in a plastic container and find out !

Here's what I found:
Water Battery - doing work - YouTube

[jehdds]

Chuck and John,
Great work. Question or two.
What is the Anode to cathode surface area ratio estimated to be in your cells?
Does increased Anode SA and smaller Cathode SA boost current for you?
I made a mini cell last night with carbon fiber as positive electrode and it seemed so for me. Can you corroborate this?
Again great work all.
Very Bedt Regards,
Jim

[Lidmotor]

Electrode work

@All
I worked on the copper and magnesium electrodes today---on a small scale. I took a 2" piece of copper wire and beat it with a hammer until it was flat and the same width as a strip of magnesium ribbon. The copper was heated until black and the magnesium was oxidized using the electrolysis method. I carefully dipped each electrode in distilled water and coated them with crystal electrolyte mixture. The electrodes were then carefully clamped together with a wood clothes pin. The voltage was about 1.4v but with less than a milliamp. There was no seperator just the two metal strips with a thin layer of crystals between them. The electrode preparation may or may not have been why this worked. I knew that as the water dried out the air was going to get in there and probably stop the thing so for grins I just sprayed the whole thing with WD-40. To my surprise it kept on working. I hooked Penny No.2 up to it and 7 hours later now she is still blinking away.


John B.
Tomorrow I will try making that star copper electrode using a drill chuck like you suggested. I have been going over your last posts and they really helped. Thanks.

Lidmotor

[jehdds]

@All
I worked on the copper and magnesium electrodes today---on a small scale. I took a 2" piece of copper wire and beat it with a hammer until it was flat and the same width as a strip of magnesium ribbon. The copper was heated until black and the magnesium was oxidized using the electrolysis method. I carefully dipped each electrode in distilled water and coated them with crystal electrolyte mixture. The electrodes were then carefully clamped together with a wood clothes pin. The voltage was about 1.4v but with less than a milliamp. There was no seperator just the two metal strips with a thin layer of crystals between them. The electrode preparation may or may not have been why this worked. I knew that as the water dried out the air was going to get in there and probably stop the thing so for grins I just sprayed the whole thing with WD-40. To my surprise it kept on working. I hooked Penny No.2 up to it and 7 hours later now she is still blinking away.


John B.
Tomorrow I will try making that star copper electrode using a drill chuck like you suggested. I have been going over your last posts and they really helped. Thanks.

Lidmotor

Dear lidmotor
Which electrolyte mix/constituents did you use?
How many volts and amps for the magnesium Prep?
Very best regards and fascinating working with WD 40!
Jim

[Lidmotor]

Mini electrode cell

Dear lidmotor
Which electrolyte mix/constituents did you use?
How many volts and amps for the magnesium Prep?
Very best regards and fascinating working with WD 40!
Jim

Jim this was a pretty simple experiment and I didn't think it out much. The magnesium strip was put into small cup of distilled water and epsom salt. I just used a piece of copper wire for the other electrode and hooked a 12v SLA up. The Mg strip bubbled alot. I didn't check the amperage. The oxide coating on the Mg was a light grey (not white) and not very thick. The crystal mixture was borax, salt substitute, and alum (equal parts). I was kinda surprised that this cell worked. Later in the day I took it out of the clothes pin and carefully wrapped a plastic coated twist tie around it to keep it together. Tommorrow I may take it apart and examine the Mg with a magnifying glass to see if it got eaten up. We will see if the WD 40 did what it designed to do----displace the water.

Lidmotor

[NextGen1967]

@All
I worked on the copper and magnesium electrodes today---on a small scale. I took a 2" piece of copper wire and beat it with a hammer until it was flat and the same width as a strip of magnesium ribbon. The copper was heated until black and the magnesium was oxidized using the electrolysis method. I carefully dipped each electrode in distilled water and coated them with crystal electrolyte mixture. The electrodes were then carefully clamped together with a wood clothes pin. The voltage was about 1.4v but with less than a milliamp. There was no seperator just the two metal strips with a thin layer of crystals between them. The electrode preparation may or may not have been why this worked. I knew that as the water dried out the air was going to get in there and probably stop the thing so for grins I just sprayed the whole thing with WD-40. To my surprise it kept on working. I hooked Penny No.2 up to it and 7 hours later now she is still blinking away.


John B.
Tomorrow I will try making that star copper electrode using a drill chuck like you suggested. I have been going over your last posts and they really helped. Thanks.

Lidmotor

Lidmotor,

Good work!

Yes, it's amazing what JB and Chuck have put together at this stage now. The power they can produce now with their cells is practical usable as reading or emergency light, and already adequate enough to power portable deceives such as RTV, mp4 players and all those kind of things. In the place where i live, many people would be very happy already to have ONE or TWO of john's cells for the electricity demand for their whole house! (my neighbor has no electricity, water and gas at all). I'm the wizard around here and have gave away many of the simple light providers (earth battery, wire in the sky, metal plates placed on local hollow block etc etc.... very crappy things, but they work). So you might understand that these kind of cells we try to make now could do a lot of good here. Haha, I have been thinking to introduce your penny here also, as they can be made of virtually anything... they will still work to a better or lesser degree, but the flash freq must be at least 25Hz to make it usable. Led's are problematic here -cost wise- (the rest, I use often junk parts and left overs that I had myself), the lighters here have leds, and those are very handy tough.

As for the star cell shape, by increasing the contact area of the magnesium electrode, you would increase amperage, but amperage is greatly determined by the kind of mix and electrode deposit layer also. If the Mg layer is correctly made, your penny will continue to work for a long long loooong time :-)

I have been playing around with sprays also (conductive and non conductive, and they can do surprisingly things).

It's best to as quickly as possible have the layer build up on the magnesium, as this shortest the 'pitting' period -and thus build of bad layer- ... Optimally one should start with a very clean magnesium electrode, and place the layer on it in the shortest time possible... A 'good' layer on top of a 'bad' layer spells trouble on the mid long term. This has -in my opinion- little to do with lattice orientation -well it does still-, but the main factor of the zapping with energy here is to get that layer build up. Lattice orientation -better said domain orientation- is another thing that is beneficial also.

@ all & John,

I did a critical analyzing on my black coating earlier today, and despite the fact it 'looked' 95% okay, I measured many many defects on the layer still (the eye wont show it, but measurements do). It was a tedious process, since i mapped over 1267 measurement points, manually. The defects were not critical (well some of them were), but it will shorten long term reliability. Main problem basically is to increase the thickness of the black layer (Yes John, I *do* know why this black layer is so important, but there *are* ways to use binders without -to much- negative effects... It is a trade off however. I have also been thinking about high velocity sputtering, but this is not simple also, and again, that is something you can't do with the average house and kitchen tools - Luckily i have a special kitchen tough :-)

@John,

My brain and thinking is working in a very straight and orderly way (it might have to do something with a high sky fall&meet earth accident when i was young), sometimes I might appear crude (direct) towards people with my wordings/writings, but rest assured my intentions are nothing but good towards all and everyone here, and your research is highly appreciated.

--
Ron.