Bedini Earth Light

[NickZ]

@Ib2:
I know what you are going through, and I empathize with you on that.

It is no coincidence that Hutchinson, Bedini, and others have used two different types of salts in their mixes, also. But, you are the inventor of the Epsom/salt substitute mix. This comes after much trial and error on your part, and you've proven your point, by making the cells and showing many videos on how they can work, even for a long time, without any additional water added. This is no small matter. Others that are new at this should really replicate the cell mix to a Tee, before you make an untested judgement. The salt substitute that you are using is the best to use in your salts mix, because it has been shown by you that it works, and works very well. Others have used Epsom/Rochell salt mixes, because they have also found them to work well.
If anyone else can obtain over 1.5 volts from a cell made of only two short pieces of wire, and some salts, then we'll be all ears.


I see that two different types of carbon in a cell, also seam to work better than just one type by itself. This may have to do with the same thing, two different electronegative potentials, even in the different types of carbon used, as they are not all the same.
I really advice people to use carbon when ever possible, as it will eliminate at least 1/2 of your cells oxidation problems.
Jim has made carbon/Mg cells that can output almost 3 volts, each cell, at least at first. So far, that takes the cake...
Guys, seriously,
thanks for all you do.

[LetsReplicate]

A video showing that Morton's salt substitute is key to make cell that will not need water added to it to keep it alive. Crystal Glue Cells don't need water to keep them alive - YouTube

...Yeah, that green on the copper is the chlorine corrosion! It is still happening when you draw power even if you pretend you can't see it! My wires are thinner than yours and that corrosion was enough to break the 22gauge aluminum lead (which oxidizes black) in 100% of cases. The corrosion is still happening in your cell, you're just slowing it down by not using any power (a short doesn't draw power so it is not a fair test). I don't care if they maintain their unloaded voltage for years, I only care how much total power I can get from them during their usable life.

None of your other cells have used a non-Morton's potassium chloride salt substitute so you are not addressing the point I made. You are trying to step around science in favor of brand loyalty here. The variable (if there is one) has not been eliminated with data yet; and to endorse a brand you should BE SURE it is chemically necessary first. You are required to make the a duplicate cell with a different brand of potassium chloride if you want to prove that Morton's is superior to any other brand. You are saying the equivalent of: only Coka-cola classic can be used to make a rum & coke because if you use any other cola, you will have to add ice to keep it cold. You don't even have enough anecdotal evidence to imply that there is any correlation between Morton's and water, let alone causation.

Yes I can make cells that work exactly the same as yours using Sifto, but I don't care because it doesn't extend the usable power of the cell. Holding voltage is not the same as having a power output and even if your cells APPEAR dry, they are still semi-wet on the inside. If they weren't you would have an open circuit. Sealing the water in doesn't matter and even if you try it will either run down eventually due to gas production, or the moisture in the air will act as the electrolyte with the exposed portion of the electrodes so it doesn't matter if there is water (or other liquid/super cooled liquid) in the cell, because there is: and otherwise it would be an open circuit. It also doesn't matter if you replace the water with another electrolyte because the corrosion will still occur. The point is get the maximum usable power from the cell despite metal corrosion. Power before perpetuation.

You assume that just because I've demonstrated a cell that sometimes requires water depending on ambient humidity that I'm not capable of building cells that work like yours and that is untrue. The point is that you are trying to blame an environmental factor on having a specific brand of an ingredient. You can't make that claim unless you eliminate other brands of potassium chloride using duplicate tests in your environment. Jumping to conclusions slows the effort to find the best recipe.

WE may think that as long as the metals used in the cells are preconditioned by an oxide layer, that that will protect them. Well, this really needs to be proven, and that can take some time to really know for sure.

The longest running, most power cell I've used so far has been an oxide coated magnesium electrode with the 4 components of the stove top cells but using water instead of being heated (the cell was originally tried with alcohol but water caused a MUCH nicer output, not wet but semi-dry, it had an output close to that of a AAA battery while still being pressure sensitive). The operational life for the build was around 1 month (would have been longer, but the peak current output had passed). I better coating may have lasted longer.

When we electrolyze the oxide layer on, we are putting the magnesium from the Epsom onto the magnesium electrode. It is getting eaten away first which is nice because it does increase the operational life of the cell proportional to how much magnesium was deposited and because the coating is oxidized already reacts less (produces less gas) during the initial production of the crystal.

I have been making cells like craizy. They are all lighting 10mm LEDs very bright. Some has 3 LEDs on and no oscilator.

Everytime i make a new i play with geometry. This is key. Water is the gas or sacrificial element. Water is actually good if controlled. No galvanic here.

This is not just chemistry guys. Transcend that a little. Do you really think a tree lives on what? Nutrients from the ground? Only? Water and radiation from the sun. Without either there is no tree.

Yes can be galvanic if you want, but if you control it is no longer galvanic. What you call pitty is just the first phase unless you add too much water or reactants.

Geometry.
Fausto.

Surface area results in current production, but distance between the electrodes is just as important. More distance between the electrodes results in more dielectric power loses but the more distance also results in a larger "depletion layer" which increases the electrical capacity (and crystal electrical production) of the cell. The key is to find the balance point that results in maximum power output.

The cells are still galvanic, and they are still corroding, but there is an energy gain from the crystal. It is chemistry AND electrostatics, not just one of the 2 but BOTH.

[plengo]

It is galvanic only when i see the corrosion. No corrosion no galvanic.

Fausto.

[LetsReplicate]

It is galvanic only when i see the corrosion. No corrosion no galvanic.

Fausto.

Not all corrosion is visible. In most cases the corrosion dissipates into the electrolyte and wears fairly evenly. And just because it isn't happening quickly doesn't mean it isn't happening. Optimally we will need a recipe where the cell is directly rechargeable (fully reversible chemical reaction), that is the only way to replace the corrosion.

These cells would not work without a chemical reaction taking place. That means they ARE galvanic, corrosion is not the sole property of galvanic reactions.

A Galvanic cell, or Voltaic cell, named after Luigi Galvani, or Alessandro Volta respectively, is an electrochemical cell that derives electrical energy from spontaneous redox reaction taking place within the cell. It generally consists of two different metals connected by a salt bridge, or individual half-cells separated by a porous membrane.

[NickZ]

If a cell can take a load and run it for a long time, then that would be a good thing, of course, but that has not really been the case, at least not with wet cells. They would need to be tested not only for voltage loss but also the loss of metal, and more important is the loss of conductivity. Their increasing resistance as well as their high impedance all need to be recorded long term to really find the answer. In many cases it may only take a few days or less to watch a cell lose its power. Practically no cell has really past the test of time yet, as most are not even a year old, while pulling a load the whole time, and not just on blinking oscillators.
I would personally love to see a video or at a least a picture of a cell that can bightly light three leds, especially with no oscillator, like Plengo has mentioned. And also to see that same cell performing a year later.
If you think that you have such a cell, please post it.
We really need to see what works, and what doesn't, as most all of these cells lose power with use, and the stronger ones seam to lose it even quicker. But, are there exceptions? Like a cell that is now stronger than when it was first made? Like Lidmotor has seen at times...
I agree with Plengo in that if you don't see any oxidation, and if there is no lose in power, then why not use it.
Then again, this is a thread about dry, not wet cells. At least that is what we have been focusing on and working towards here.

[NickZ]

LetsReplicate:
Some people may think that all cells are galvanic, so, please explain how a cell that has no water and no air, makes leds light up, so far for months.
Open circuit? Will not work? Isn't there more to this... we here working on this thread think so, at least hope to be able to prove it and more importantly use it.

So please look below.
Dry cells: made with no water, no oxygen, no salts, and no heat involved.
No open circuit, either... still lighting leds.
This has also been shown by the Marcos Reid type solid state semiconductor cells, which have been been tested while running loads for several days, with no drop in output.
This is the direction that some of us are going towards.
Rechargeable secondary batteries already exist, perpetual solid state ones, don't, at least not on Ebay, not today.

[ibpointless2]

...Yeah, that green on the copper is the chlorine corrosion! It is still happening when you draw power even if you pretend you can't see it! My wires are thinner than yours and that corrosion was enough to break the 22gauge aluminum lead (which oxidizes black) in 100% of cases. The corrosion is still happening in your cell, you're just slowing it down by not using any power (a short doesn't draw power so it is not a fair test). I don't care if they maintain their unloaded voltage for years, I only care how much total power I can get from them during their usable life.

None of your other cells have used a non-Morton's potassium chloride salt substitute so you are not addressing the point I made. You are trying to step around science in favor of brand loyalty here. The variable (if there is one) has not been eliminated with data yet; and to endorse a brand you should BE SURE it is chemically necessary first. You are required to make the a duplicate cell with a different brand of potassium chloride if you want to prove that Morton's is superior to any other brand. You are saying the equivalent of: only Coka-cola classic can be used to make a rum & coke because if you use any other cola, you will have to add ice to keep it cold. You don't even have enough anecdotal evidence to imply that there is any correlation between Morton's and water, let alone causation.

Yes I can make cells that work exactly the same as yours using Sifto, but I don't care because it doesn't extend the usable power of the cell. Holding voltage is not the same as having a power output and even if your cells APPEAR dry, they are still semi-wet on the inside. If they weren't you would have an open circuit. Sealing the water in doesn't matter and even if you try it will either run down eventually due to gas production, or the moisture in the air will act as the electrolyte with the exposed portion of the electrodes so it doesn't matter if there is water (or other liquid/super cooled liquid) in the cell, because there is: and otherwise it would be an open circuit. It also doesn't matter if you replace the water with another electrolyte because the corrosion will still occur. The point is get the maximum usable power from the cell despite metal corrosion. Power before perpetuation.

You assume that just because I've demonstrated a cell that sometimes requires water depending on ambient humidity that I'm not capable of building cells that work like yours and that is untrue. The point is that you are trying to blame an environmental factor on having a specific brand of an ingredient. You can't make that claim unless you eliminate other brands of potassium chloride using duplicate tests in your environment. Jumping to conclusions slows the effort to find the best recipe.



The longest running, most power cell I've used so far has been an oxide coated magnesium electrode with the 4 components of the stove top cells but using water instead of being heated (the cell was originally tried with alcohol but water caused a MUCH nicer output, not wet but semi-dry, it had an output close to that of a AAA battery while still being pressure sensitive). The operational life for the build was around 1 month (would have been longer, but the peak current output had passed). I better coating may have lasted longer.

When we electrolyze the oxide layer on, we are putting the magnesium from the Epsom onto the magnesium electrode. It is getting eaten away first which is nice because it does increase the operational life of the cell proportional to how much magnesium was deposited and because the coating is oxidized already reacts less (produces less gas) during the initial production of the crystal.



Surface area results in current production, but distance between the electrodes is just as important. More distance between the electrodes results in more dielectric power loses but the more distance also results in a larger "depletion layer" which increases the electrical capacity (and crystal electrical production) of the cell. The key is to find the balance point that results in maximum power output.

The cells are still galvanic, and they are still corroding, but there is an energy gain from the crystal. It is chemistry AND electrostatics, not just one of the 2 but BOTH.

The tarnish is from when the cell is still wet but when it dries the tarnishing stops, this is why I say stay away from water because if i keep the cell wet and the cell will continue to corrode away. Since the cell drys out the tarnish stops, and also its a tarnish layer that copper develops to protect it from corrosion and if the green stuff was really corrosion than the statue of liberty would not be still standing.

First I would like to say that I will experiment with other salt substitutes just to prove that not all salt substitutes are the same. Second I don't care about Morton, it could have been any salt company so long as I get my results.

You stated "(a short doesn't draw power so it is not a fair test)" this has got to be the stupidest thing I ever heard. Since a dead short won't draw any power why don't you short out your car battery and let me know how we that works out for you. A short is the most destructive test you can do to any power source.

You seem to be missing the point here, you're want to run before you can walk. The amount of computing power in your cell phone would have taken up a whole building back in the 50's, as time goes on things improve and get better and smaller. If you came here want to power your house with a cell the size of a cup of coffee than you came to the wrong place.

I have done your "scientific" ways of testing. I have made my control glue cell, and my Glue-Epsom salt cell, and my Glue-salt substitute cells and they all fail over time. I have made many other cells but their was two that has stuck out to me because they don't need any water to run and that is ground breaking. It seems you don't understand what this means, you ignore it because it won't power a blender so you skip corners and bring back water which is the reason why your metals corrode and nothing else. You see micro-amps now but with anything else in the world it can get better over time. Sure today I can only power a clock but who knows a year from now i can be powering heater. Right now it doesn't matter if i can power a cow the fact that my cells still stays alive after it drys out is what i'm most excited about. You could state it like I've created a anti-gravity machine but it only hovers a inch above the floor and only moves a inch a hour, and just it because it can't do mach 2 now doesn't mean it won't ever do it.

[ibpointless2]

It is galvanic only when i see the corrosion. No corrosion no galvanic.

Fausto.

I would have to agree with this statement, no corrosion means no galvanic's.

[LetsReplicate]

LetsReplicate:
Some people may think that all cells are galvanic, so, please explain how a cell that has no water and no air, makes leds light up, so far for months.
Open circuit? Will not work? Isn't there more to this... we here working on this thread think so, at least hope to be able to prove it and more importantly use it.

The crystal is in a "super cooled liquid" state, it doesn't matter how you aquire the state, but it is REQUIRED for the cells to work. Super cooled liquids APPEAR solid but are still liquid enough to transfer ions. Proof of that can be performed on ANY heated cell: just overcook it! That evaporates ALL the water and the cell will read as an open circuit unless water is re-added. As I've stated repeatedly, I live in a VERY dry climate during the winter and that prevents the cells pulling moisture out of the air so I can tell you for a FACT that an overcooked stovetop cell DOES NOT RECOVER without water.

Fudementally, we're talking about a salt bridge:

One type of salt bridge consists of a U-shaped glass tube filled with a relatively inert electrolyte; usually potassium chloride or sodium chloride is used, although the diagram here illustrates the use of a potassium nitrate solution. The electrolyte is often gelified with agar to help prevent the intermixing of fluids which might otherwise occur.

That last sentence means that means that ions still exchange despite there not being direct liquid contact. A gel is solid in the same way a supercooled liquid is a solid.

As electrons leave one half of a galvanic cell and flow to the other, a difference in charge is established. If no salt bridge were used, this charge difference would prevent further flow of electrons. A salt bridge allows the flow of ions to maintain a balance in charge between the oxidation and reduction vessels while keeping the contents of each separate. With the charge difference balanced, electrons can flow once again, and the reduction and oxidation reactions can proceed. In general, keeping the two cells separate is preferable from the point of view of eliminating variables from an experiment. When no direct contact between electrolytes is allowed, there is no need to make allowance for possible interactions between ionic species.

So please look below.
Dry cells: made with no water, no oxygen, no salts, and no heat involved.
No open circuit, either... still lighting leds.

...they have salts. All of the substrate ingredients of these cells are technically ionic salts.

In chemistry, salts are ionic compounds that result from the neutralization reaction of an acid and a base. They are composed of cations (positively charged ions) and anions (negative ions) so that the product is electrically neutral (without a net charge). These component ions can be inorganic such as chloride (Cl−), as well as organic such as acetate (CH3COO−) and monatomic ions such as fluoride (F−), as well as polyatomic ions such as sulfate (SO42−).

Galvanic does not mean it has water; and removal of water does not make them not galvanic. The same is true for oxygen and heat. There is a chemical reaction taking place inside the cell that is giving you a DC output. The free energy the cell may, or may not be producing is only serving to refill the capacity that is being depleted when you draw power power from the cell.

Imagine the cell is a cup under an ocean of energy that is trying to recharge is. We need to pump "water" out of the cup so that more can rush in. The energy that is already in the cup is the galvanic reaction. There is nothing we can do to prevent the corrosion because the base galvanic reaction is required to bias the charge in the cell. Without the bias caused by the galvanic reaction there would be no free energy drawn into the cell. That means that no matter what we do to increase the energy produced, there will sill be corrosion and we need to accept that.

This has also been shown by the Marcos Reid type solid state semiconductor cells, which have been been tested while running loads for several days, with no drop in output.
This is the direction that some of us are going towards.
Rechargeable secondary batteries already exist, perpetual solid state ones, don't, at least not on Ebay, not today.

There is always be a drop in output at some point, no cell will produce a useful amount of power "forever". The question is: how much total power is there?

[ibpointless2]

I remember doing test to see if water was in the cell so I would freeze the cells in a deep freeze. As you guys know water will freeze and when in a solid form the molecules slow down so a galvanic reaction slows down too and this would show if a cell used water for ion transporting or not. Since a deep freezer is cold and dry it would be fitting to test cells in, just leave them over night and see if they still have any usable voltage.

Frozen Water battery - YouTube

Frozen Crystal Cells - YouTube

[LetsReplicate]

The tarnish is from when the cell is still wet but when it dries the tarnishing stops, this is why I say stay away from water because if i keep the cell wet and the cell will continue to corrode away. Since the cell drys out the tarnish stops, and also its a tarnish layer that copper develops to protect it from corrosion and if the green stuff was really corrosion than the statue of liberty would not be still standing.

That is not something you can prove unless you cut multiple duplicates of the cell up after drawing differing amounts of power from them to note the amount of corrosion on the wire itself. My conclusion from seeing it is just as valid as yours.

A rather more spectacular example occurred in the Statue of Liberty when regular maintenance in the 1980s showed that galvanic corrosion had taken place between the outer copper skin and the wrought iron support structure.

The problem that most necessitated the restoration of the Statue of Liberty was galvanic corrosion of the iron armature in contact with the copper skin. Galvanic corrosion occurs when dissimilar metals are in electrical contact in the same electrolyte. The difference in electrochemical potential between the dissimilar metals (iron and copper) is the driving force for electrolysis, whereby the armature, forming horizontal anodes at an accelerated rate. The iron armature, forming horizontal and vertical ribs against the copper skin, and the attachment mechanism, whereby copper saddles (which are flush riveted to the copper skin) surround the iron armature, provided a configuration conducive to galvanic corrosion.

Since all of the iron armature was interconnected, only one location of physical contact to the copper skin was necessary to provide electrical continuity to the copper throughout the Statue. The designers of the Statue had tried to prevent this galvanic coupling by insulating the two materials with asbestos cloths soaked in shellac. This was only a temporary barrier that became porous with age and provided electrolytic continuity by wicking and capillary action. (reference)

The green effect on copper is known as "galvanic corrosion stains" with regard to the Statue of Liberty...

First I would like to say that I will experiment with other salt substitutes just to prove that not all salt substitutes are the same. Second I don't care about Morton, it could have been any salt company so long as I get my results.

Thank you, that was an answer I was looking for.

You stated "(a short doesn't draw power so it is not a fair test)" this has got to be the stupidest thing I ever heard. Since a dead short won't draw any power why don't you short out your car battery and let me know how we that works out for you. A short is the most destructive test you can do to any power source.

There has to be charge differential between the two electrodes of the cell for the depletion zone (capacity) of the cell to recharge. We are not dealing with a normal battery here but it does require galvanic action to function. When you short the cell out with 0hms of resistance you are making the two electrode have the same potential. The cell sources best in pulses because it needs to recharge.

This is a source with a very high internal resistance, that makes them different from a normal battery which has a very low internal resistance (at the beginning of their life). That makes an impedance mismatch which prevents optimal transfer of power while shorted. This property was already established several months ago. If you want to prove that wrong place a 1kohm or larger resistor as the load and see if the cell is able to recover after a few months, odds are that it won't recover.

You seem to be missing the point here, you're want to run before you can walk. The amount of computing power in your cell phone would have taken up a whole building back in the 50's, as time goes on things improve and get better and smaller. If you came here want to power your house with a cell the size of a cup of coffee than you came to the wrong place.

I can both walk and run. "Lighting an led" and "holding a voltage" are standing still, you have to move forward to get anywhere. The goal is usable power, that doesn't mean "power a house", but is does mean a scalable system that can do something useful.

I have done your "scientific" ways of testing. I have made my control glue cell, and my Glue-Epsom salt cell, and my Glue-salt substitute cells and they all fail over time. I have made many other cells but their was two that has stuck out to me because they don't need any water to run and that is ground breaking. It seems you don't understand what this means, you ignore it because it won't power a blender so you skip corners and bring back water which is the reason why your metals corrode and nothing else. You see micro-amps now but with anything else in the world it can get better over time. Sure today I can only power a clock but who knows a year from now i can be powering heater. Right now it doesn't matter if i can power a cow the fact that my cells still stays alive after it drys out is what i'm most excited about. You could state it like I've created a anti-gravity machine but it only hovers a inch above the floor and only moves a inch a hour, and just it because it can't do mach 2 now doesn't mean it won't ever do it.

Yes, but you have in many cases you jump from hypothesis to conclusion, everybody does that, it is called confirmation bias. The cells are interesting but just because they "hover 2in above the ground" doesn't mean they are "anti-gravity" when it is MORE likely that they have a "lift" force that does not affect gravity. You can't go claiming it is anti-gravity when you have a lift force; that exact claim set back independent ion wind research (lifters) by more than 10 years and still confuses many people. You have an interesting variation on a galvanic cell that has semi-conductor properties and may transduce energy; it is not magical and unexplainable.

"Appears to dry out" is different from "dries out". Just like "appears to stop corroding" is different from "stops corroding".

[Aaron]

bogus expertise

You can't go claiming it is anti-gravity when you have a lift force; that exact claim set back independent ion wind research (lifters) by more than 10 years and still confuses many people.

Geoffrey Ingram, you really should do your research before making such ridiculous analogies. Set back the lifter research 10 years?

Lifters ARE asymmetrical capacitors exactly like Townsend's experiments.

Even the US Army verified ionic wind is at least three orders of magnitude too small to explain the force demonstrated. It is not a simple ionic wind force - there are effects going on that nobody can claim to know exactly what - and that includes YOU. Sorry, but not everything can simply be written off as some basic effect that fits your little box no matter how much you want to prove the Earth is flat.

Your self-proclaimed "expertise" is being revealed for what it really is bit by it in all the threads that you are "contributing" to.

[Aaron]

lets replicate - geoffrey ingram - blowing hot air

These cells would not work without a chemical reaction taking place. That means they ARE galvanic, corrosion is not the sole property of galvanic reactions.

Galvanic action is NOT the only way - I'm not saying these particular cells are galvanic or not but there are ones that absolutely are NOT - you are simply blowing hot air based on you doing nothing more than protecting your fragile paradigm. Sorry, you are not an expert in anything other than what the books tell you to believe.

Please stop trying to ram your claustrophobic paradigm down everyone's throat.

Geoffrey Ingram

[NickZ]

Letsreplicate:
As I've mentioned, this thread is about non galvanic cells dry cells. As You do not believe they can even exist, then why don't you find a thread that fits your way of thinking . We have been through this many times before. And you LetsReplicate have NOT replicated and shown us anything new, so don't bore us with your negative know it all answers.
My cells have no water and no salts, they are bone dry and months old. Open you eyes. Since no proof is good enough for you, Please move on to another thread where you can continue your wet cell theory, or show us your non galvanic dry cells. The only bubble that you are bursting is your own.
Again, we have heard this all before, and you are disrupting this thread.
NickZ

[plengo]

@all,

I would not exclude wet cells from this thread since even Bedini, John Huntinckson have done here wet cells. I agree that solid state is great but i think power for the lifetime of ones living is great all by itself.

I want dry cells too but so far only wet cells has given me usable power.

What you guys think?

Fausto.