Bedini Earth Light

[redrichie]

Maybe this question is for jb but if anyone else knows feel free. Edison invented the nickel iron battery for Electric cars. (Way back then he could get over 100 miles on a charge. Go figure.) The batteries are nearly indestructable. Would the alum work in this battery?
And please will someone tell me what to do with the sulphuric acid I dump out of these batteries. I have 3 batteries worth in a bucket. Would neutralizing with baking soda water be enough? Then just dump it onto the ground?

[DadHav]

Hi guys,

could you please clarify which alum to use? I read somewhere that it has to be
Ammonium aluminium sulfate but on this site it says sodium aluminum silicate:

How to convert a Lead Acid Battery into an Alkaline Battery - Sepp Hasslberger

Thanks a lot guys.
Cheers,

Prato

Hello Prato, I also wonder what the electrolyte is for the iron / nickle battery. That sounds interesting as well. They mention 400 cycles on the Alum battery. I wonder what is the actual breakdown in the battery that ends the cycle or if it can be rejuvenated again. Lot's of questions eh?
John Hav.

[John_Bedini]

Alum Food Grade

Here it is again.
Alum

Ammonium aluminium sulfate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hi guys,

could you please clarify which alum to use? I read somewhere that it has to be
Ammonium aluminium sulfate but on this site it says sodium aluminum silicate:

How to convert a Lead Acid Battery into an Alkaline Battery - Sepp Hasslberger

Thanks a lot guys.
Cheers,

Prato

[CrystalDipoleMatrix]

Here it is again.
Alum

Ammonium aluminium sulfate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hi John, just want to know why you use ammonium alum and not potash alum?? The ammonium alum is a synthetic product and the potassium alum is from a natural rock. Ammonium alum is highly toxic. My alum is from the ''clubhouse'' spice brand, it's potash alum (small crystals) and all my 4 crystal batteries are running since 2 weeks now with no water added since 7 days. I have a pulse motor running off 3 cells in series and a cell powering a blocking oscillator led.

[prato_braun]

Here it is again.
Alum

Ammonium aluminium sulfate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thanks for the quick clarification

[br0ns0n77]

So I'm pretty new to all this experimentation, but I was wondering if there was a way to use these batteries in parallel in a 12v system being they don't actually settle down above 11v?

How would these batteries become applicable running things like an inverter or powering small 12v appliances? Forgive me for my naivety.

Thanks for the insight in advance!

[DadHav]

@ Dadhav
John-- you have to make sure that the metal is clean I found out and it is better if you rough it up with sandpaper to increase the surface area. John Bedini has the Alum mixture very strong---almost like syrup. You can get the food grade Alum at a spice supply outlet online. I have been forming my little one cell plates by zapping them with a 6v battery for about 5 seconds. It bubbles like crazy. Then I discharge it and go again. About three times and the oxides are formed up. I slow charge the cell with 3 volts to get the joules in. Expect to see about a 1.5 volt cell form up. 50/50 solder may or may not work. I think what I showed was 80/20. I found some more on Ebay and also at another dollar store. That stuff was labeled. I am currently trying linotype lead and that works very good. It is 84% lead with antimony and tin. The antimony makes the alloy stronger and stiffer.


Hope this helped.

Lidmotor

Hi Rusty. I decided to leave the solder behind and try a small LAB. This one is a small 1.3 ah that I totally abused and had no use for. I'm still getting used to the charge / discharge characteristics. I hear ya on the way you are charging. So far for the first 6 cycles it seems like my little battery does not like to be charged with two much current, but I don't want to elaborate yet till I know more about what I'm doing. I will say the battery is usable again. I have also been discharging the battery with the stator motor and window motor, just to mess around with the impedance characteristics. It looks like there's some new ideas to play around with. The battery liked running the stator motor with the half wave mini circuit and a feedback. The battery certainly isn't where I'd do back flips yet but it really is a fun experiment so far and I think it's worth spending time with, especially with John leading the way.
John Hav.

[John_Bedini]

Converson to Alum/Ammonium Aluminum Sulfate

John Hav,
If you get a big one you will do back flips. Everybody is just goofing around with small devices. but if you start to get into the 24 Amp Hr range things will change. The reason for the food grade Alum is simple anything else and you will start to eat the active material on the plates. Epsom Salts is just good one time.Sodium Sulphate will soften the material on the plates and it soon will fall off. Using detergent and tap water will cause the plates to not take a charge as all the active material is dissolved away, the minerals and the chlorine in tap water is very damaging to the plates. The battery works two ways with Sulphuric Acid as a normal Lead Acid Battery or with Food Grade Alum or Ammonium Aluminum Sulfate.

The salt (Ammonium Aluminum Sulfate) is a very good Ionic compound and works very well for ionic transfer, just a little research will point that out. Again I will point out the two different impedances that take place. The impedance is high under charging so current is less. Under load the impedance is very much lower so current is available, My charts do not lie in the video as I have done this many times. Taking a dry Battery off the shelf is the test, and I did that on video and I'm going to do it again. You can lead people to the water but you can not make them drink. In all my years with batteries this one along with the copper magnesium Cell perform the best for current with shifting impedance. Most are unsuccessful because they use junk batteries, junk batteries do not perform, the old saying Junk in Junk out.

This is not Voodoo it's just the way chemistry works in the cells. If you think the store dry charge battery is hard to do try a 1951 Willard battery that has never been formed, that is on video too.

[b_rads]

Began testing homemade lead plates.

@all:
Had a little time yesterday afternoon so I finally mixed the electrolyte (distilled water and alum) and conditioned the homemade lead plates as per Lidmotor’s excellent instructions. The lead plates were formed from sinkers purchased at the sporting goods store. I did not have time to perform several deep charge / discharge cycles, but I was able to power a small load oscillator over night. On a quick charge – 10 minutes at 4.5 volts I am able to run a motor turning a propeller for several minutes and then run the oscillator for considerable time after that. I mixed my electrolyte very strong with hot water, the solution did not go clear, instead remained a milky white without any of the alum falling to the bottom. I will try to video this later and demonstrate this truly fun homemade lead/alum cell.

I have not tried this but intend to on some of my solar 12v batteries.
This is from:
batterystuff.com sells a product called “battery equalizer”.
Checking the msds for this product we find that this product is 0.1 – 1% cadmium sulfate.
This is what they claim:
“The Problem ~ Internal Resistance & Sulphation
Lead acid batteries have changed very little in 70 years. From the initial application of the electrolyte, sulphation begins coating the lead plates causing internal resistance. Aging batteries lose overall performance and require increased maintenance (more water) and charging time. Sulphation will eventually choke out any electrical activity. Stored and inactive batteries accelerate the problem of sulphation, leading to REDUCED BATTERY LIFE.”
“The Solution ~ Reduces Resistance & Sulphation
A small amount of Battery Equalizer to each cell will mix with the existing electrolyte solution. The improved battery chemistry will dissolve existing sulphation and prevent new deposits from forming for years to come. Batteries will charge faster, hold a charge longer, reduce terminal corrosion and reduce gassing (water consumption). Follow normal battery maintenance and DOUBLE BATTERY LIFE WITH ONLY ONE TREATMENT”
Brad S

[Sawt2]

@all:
Had a little time yesterday afternoon so I finally mixed the electrolyte (distilled water and alum) and conditioned the homemade lead plates as per Lidmotor’s excellent instructions. The lead plates were formed from sinkers purchased at the sporting goods store. I did not have time to perform several deep charge / discharge cycles, but I was able to power a small load oscillator over night. On a quick charge – 10 minutes at 4.5 volts I am able to run a motor turning a propeller for several minutes and then run the oscillator for considerable time after that. I mixed my electrolyte very strong with hot water, the solution did not go clear, instead remained a milky white without any of the alum falling to the bottom. I will try to video this later and demonstrate this truly fun homemade lead/alum cell.

I have not tried this but intend to on some of my solar 12v batteries.
This is from:
batterystuff.com sells a product called “battery equalizer”.
Checking the msds for this product we find that this product is 0.1 – 1% cadmium sulfate.
This is what they claim:
“The Problem ~ Internal Resistance & Sulphation
Lead acid batteries have changed very little in 70 years. From the initial application of the electrolyte, sulphation begins coating the lead plates causing internal resistance. Aging batteries lose overall performance and require increased maintenance (more water) and charging time. Sulphation will eventually choke out any electrical activity. Stored and inactive batteries accelerate the problem of sulphation, leading to REDUCED BATTERY LIFE.”
“The Solution ~ Reduces Resistance & Sulphation
A small amount of Battery Equalizer to each cell will mix with the existing electrolyte solution. The improved battery chemistry will dissolve existing sulphation and prevent new deposits from forming for years to come. Batteries will charge faster, hold a charge longer, reduce terminal corrosion and reduce gassing (water consumption). Follow normal battery maintenance and DOUBLE BATTERY LIFE WITH ONLY ONE TREATMENT”
Brad S

Years ago there was a product called VX-6, I believe cadmium sulfate was the active ingredient in that also. It was a worthwhile product, don't know if its still around though

[DadHav]

John Hav,
If you get a big one you will do back flips. Everybody is just goofing around with small devices. but if you start to get into the 24 Amp Hr range things will change. The reason for the food grade Alum is simple anything else and you will start to eat the active material on the plates. Epsom Salts is just good one time.Sodium Sulphate will soften the material on the plates and it soon will fall off. Using detergent and tap water will cause the plates to not take a charge as all the active material is dissolved away, the minerals and the chlorine in tap water is very damaging to the plates. The battery works two ways with Sulphuric Acid as a normal Lead Acid Battery or with Food Grade Alum or Ammonium Aluminum Sulfate.

The salt (Ammonium Aluminum Sulfate) is a very good Ionic compound and works very well for ionic transfer, just a little research will point that out. Again I will point out the two different impedances that take place. The impedance is high under charging so current is less. Under load the impedance is very much lower so current is available, My charts do not lie in the video as I have done this many times. Taking a dry Battery off the shelf is the test, and I did that on video and I'm going to do it again. You can lead people to the water but you can not make them drink. In all my years with batteries this one along with the copper magnesium Cell perform the best for current with shifting impedance. Most are unsuccessful because they use junk batteries, junk batteries do not perform, the old saying Junk in Junk out.

This is not Voodoo it's just the way chemistry works in the cells. If you think the store dry charge battery is hard to do try a 1951 Willard battery that has never been formed, that is on video too.

John, I got really jealous when I saw the old Willard batteries in a few of your videos. I remember them from when I was just a kid. OK, so thank you, your points where very clear. I found a few places selling what they said was food grade Alum but none of them could confirm it was ammonium. One said the formula was AL2 SO (3) H2. If anyone could link me to a site that sells at a reasonable price I would appreciate it. I was a little confused when mixing the alum for the small battery test. I heated the water a little and added alum but I had sediment before I reached a point where the solutions felt slippery or thick. I just assumed it was as saturated as possible without boiling and used the solution above the sediment. I did see your graphing support on the video. It was very impressive. I will buy a larger battery and I remember you making a recommendation a few times but I don't remember what your preference was.
Thank You.
John Hav.

[br0ns0n77]

So I'm pretty new to all this experimentation, but I was wondering if there was a way to use these batteries in parallel in a 12v system being they don't actually settle down above 11v?

How would these batteries become applicable running things like an inverter or powering small 12v appliances? Forgive me for my naivety.

Thanks for the insight in advance!

Guess no one has an answer for this?

[DadHav]

Guess no one has an answer for this?

Br. I'll take a quick wing at it until someone comes along that knows better. You mention parallel batteries because the alum batteries settle down to a much lower voltage than a LAB. I think you may be referring to series batteries to get the voltage back up high enough to run 12 volt equipment. John said he expected a nominal voltage similar to a NiCad or NiMh battery. That would be about 1.2 volts per cell. OK that would boil down to a 7.2 volt battery instead 12 volts. So if you put 2 in series you would get 14.4. I would imagine most converters and also 12 volt accessories would run from the 2 batteries in series. I wouldn't bet my life on it but i think most stuff is designed to run at 14-15 volts because a regular battery can charge that high. John has some convincing video that shows the power density should be fine for such loads as well. Maybe this will help as an answer until the boss corrects me if I'm wrong. Just a gut feel but 2 alum batteries might be borderline on the high side.
You must remember this is new to most of us and results will certainly very.
John Hav.

[Lidmotor]

Good News---Bad News

@All
The Good News:

My converted motorcycle battery remains strong at around 10.5 to 11 volts. I don't have a way to know if it is fully charged though. You can't use a hydrometer on it and just looking at battery voltage is useless. I have not load tested it like John B. did in the video to see how long it will power something.


The Bad News:

I wanted to see what the pH was of the electrolyte so today I drained the battery into a plastic pan and tested it with a house plant pH tester. It is at around 3 -----it is mildly acidic. It bubbles baking soda. This is NOT an alkaline battery like some people have said. Alkaline would be about a pH of 7 and up The electrolyte is about as acidic as household vinegar (at least in my battery). The regular battery sulfuric acid is way down around a pH of 1or less so this Alum/distilled water electrolyte is much safer.

I am still wondering about the strange chemistry that must be going on inside the battery. Anyway I let the electrolyte settle out ( there was some grey lead oxide in it) and then just put it back in the battery. The battery is now usable and I have saved it from the junk heap -----I consider that a big success.

Lidmotor

[John_Bedini]

Ph Level

Lidmotor,
ALUM

Composition: Papermaker's alum is aluminum sulfate. Concentrations and addition amounts are usually based on either (a) the equivalent amount of Al2O3 or (b) the equivalent amount of the hydrate, Al2O3.14H2O. Alum is most commonly delivered as a liquid concentration, having a solids level of 8.3% as Al2O3 or about 50% as hydrate. Alum solutions are acidic. For instance, a 1% solution has a pH of around 3. Ionic species present in alum solutions are highly dependent on the degree of reaction with hydroxyl ions. It is tempting to say that "the composition is pH-dependent." However, in the vicinity of pH=4.3 the composition of alum solutions changes a great deal with very little change in pH. At pH=3 and lower the main species is a hydrated form of Al3+. At a pH near to 4.3 there may be oligomers such as Al13O40H487+ or related species that contain sulfate. In a broad range of pH between about 6 and 9.5 the main species will be Al(OH)3 (and possibly related species that contain sulfate). The soluble aluminate ion predominates at pH values greater that 9.5.

It is important to mix enough Alum. I hope to post a new video tomorrow on a lead alum crystal without growth so far. We will see how it goes.