Bedini Earth Light

[NickZ]

How does an Epoxy beach sand cell sound? No water, no corrosion, might work, who knows. Any ideas???

[NickZ]

"Nobody is playing correctly here? Clumsy"?

[ibpointless2]

The moisture test that I have made only test conductive-ness of something and not if it has water in it. I assume that water would make the cell conductive and thus light the LED but other materials are conductive too and this could light the LED.


I have made some cells out of non water based substances like epoxy and such and I have gotten little power from them, from 2mV to 20mV. It was the water that gave these cells life.

Now I remember watching a video about water, it was stated that water itself had a crystal form to it. The crystals layered at the top of the water, the crystals are what created the surface tension so that bugs could walk on. Also the capillary effect of water rising in a narrow tube was actually the water crystals growing. I remember doing test on this idea, I took a cup of water and put one aluminum wire in deep into the water and then had another aluminum wire barely touch the top of the water and I could get close to 600mV. ‪They say it can't be done The Same Metal Water Battery‬‏ - YouTube

So the water itself is a crystal forum that allows a galvanic reaction to happen. I don't know how the same metals could forum the galvanic reaction or even why I got energy from the water like did but it had to be due to the crystals in the water. Is it possible to have a galvanic reaction with the same metals? Same metals have the same potential so how was i able to get voltage?This Idea also work for non metals like graphite.

[b_rads]

I hate to admit it but these cells really are nothing more than galvanic cells, even if they don't show it.

@all
When NickZ suggested aluminum as the electrode on the banana cell, reminded me of some experiments I did a while back when trying to see how quickly the anode would be consumed using different electrolytes. Aluminum foil from the local dollar is extremely thin. I made these little test cells from wood glue, potassium chloride, and a couple of copper sulfate crystals. The original output was around a quarter volt and a 2ma. Less than 24 hours they were dead and this is what they looked like.
Brad S

[Matthew Jones]

@all
When NickZ suggested aluminum as the electrode on the banana cell, reminded me of some experiments I did a while back when trying to see how quickly the anode would be consumed using different electrolytes. Aluminum foil from the local dollar is extremely thin. I made these little test cells from wood glue, potassium chloride, and a couple of copper sulfate crystals. The original output was around a quarter volt and a 2ma. Less than 24 hours they were dead and this is what they looked like.
Brad S

Copper sulphate degrades aluminum at an amazing rate.
I am builder by trade and when they changed treated lumber from arsenic based to copper sulphate (ACQ lumber) we were still wrapping posts with painted aluminum. Within hours we watched the holes appear in the aluminum. This only happened on the extremely wet lumber.
I am not sure how much a couple of crystals amounts too but I am sure that before your glue dried you had already started a rapid degrading of the aluminum.
Not to say your not making a valid point just adding a little fact I know to be true.

More than likely this process would been slowed down had you first coated the anode and cathode before bonding the 2 together with the blend you used.

Matt

[b_rads]

Copper sulphate degrades aluminum at an amazing rate.
I am builder by trade and when they changed treated lumber from arsenic based to copper sulphate (ACQ lumber) we were still wrapping posts with painted aluminum. Within hours we watched the holes appear in the aluminum. This only happened on the extremely wet lumber.
I am not sure how much a couple of crystals amounts too but I am sure that before your glue dried you had already started a rapid degrading of the aluminum.
Not to say your making a valid point just adding a little fact I know to be true.

More than likely this process would been slowed down had you first coated the anode and cathode before bonding the 2 together with the blend you used.

Matt

Thank you for the confirmation on the copper sulfate (sulphate) Matt. I intentionally added this to the mix with the other materials thought to not be galvanic to show how easy it is to test. I should have made a comparison cell without the copper sulfate for reference.
Thanks again Matt.

[NickZ]

b-rads and All:
Valid test on the foil.
I think that even if we don't use water, the same thing will happen due to the oxygen present in the Air. Alum can also be one of the causes of the deterioration, even though it is supposed to control it instead. A Neutral cell would be best. As it is the difference in potential in the two metals as was just mentioned again by Lidmotor, that is creating the voltage source, and not the salt, water, or air. Salt only further improves the current, but does so at the expense of the metals. The rest of the story is why or how the two different metals can create any voltage in the first place, and that is really the important point. As just to say that is it a galvanic reaction, does not really explain where or how the electricity that is generated comes from. Or does it???
These cells really should be using bigger and wider plates inside, instead of wires as the electrodes. As current and voltage output is dependent on the mass and surface area of the metals. That way we can catch up to the rest of the current battery industry and its related technologies.
As far as I can see so far, it's the oxidation and the loss of physical contact in the cells and wire connections causing the problems.
I really don't think that the only reason we get a couple of volts from these cells is due to the chemical reaction, as in a galvanic cell, anymore than explaining how rocks crystals are outputting voltage. Or why a magnetOf course, if I am wrong, I'll be the first to take note of it.

@ Armagdn03: Thanks for you comments, that was really needed. Now we don't have to act so clumsy, slow and retarded anymore, all thanks to you. Sorry our thread was not to your liking, how sad, but there is a ton of very useful information, on the subject of permanent output cells that don't ever need recharging, elsewhere.

[skaght]

"Dry" cell

So I tried a couple experiments to eliminate the water. I took an iron plate and a zinc plate (because that's what I had) and a 1.5 inch diameter rubber o-ring. inside the o-ring between the plates I tried sandwiching a couple things:

powdered iron
powdered aluminum
powdered graphite
powdered black copper oxide

I added no liquid, although purists will probably talk about ambient humidity. The first three powders didn't work at all. Resistance was variable (infinite to a couple ohms) based on how tightly compressed they were (I used a c-clamp), but voltage/current were basically nil. Copper oxide, however, yielded 0.18 volts with a current that appeared steady around 6 uA. I think other semiconducting powders might do better. In addition, other additives in the powders might improve things. Now I know these power levels are tiny, but perhaps we can do better and create a true "dry" cell.

[NickZ]

skaght:
Sounds good. I think that not only dry is better, but sealed from the air as well, such as submerged in e-poxy (airtight) is possibly even better, with just the connector sticking out of the cell.

[ibpointless2]

My latest glue cell still shows no deterioration even when it been shorted out for days. The cell still bounces back to the original voltage just fine too.

It could be nothing but so far this has been the best cell I've made, it has lasted the longest and shows no corrosion so far even after being shorted out. I made a video to show how exactly I made the cells and what I used and where to get them. If you want to see what i see i suggest following what the video says.

‪How to Make a Crystal Glue cell‬‏ - YouTube


I'm also trying the aluminum foil and copper wire to see if it will corrode. I'm still letting that cell dry.

[NickZ]

This guy has done a lot of testing, and has some interesting conclusions. These are similar to cell designs I was going to make. So this might save me some effort, as there does not seam to be much power output from the copper cement cells he made for his tests. Even when using salt, baking the cells until dry in an oven, as well as sealing the cells from the outside air.
‪Cement Cu-Tungsten electrostatic heat cell‬‏ - YouTube

After watching the video it made me realize that the beach sand cement combination is still the best way to go, for me, up to now. As each one my cement cells outputs 60 mA. That is more output than all this guys cells all put altogether. The trick is to keep that current level from dropping, and be able to connect them in parallel to get more usable current levels too. Looks like adding salt in this case is not really raising the current levels, by all that much. Unlike the Mg-Carbon cell that Lidmotor and Lasersaber are working on. Possibly using Alum to control the rust, and some type of oil bath.

Ib: What you need is to make a real working cell, to test the cells output, as well as its break down rate. Your cells look more like salt cells, as there is a lot of salt in the glue. You can pour them into a mold, then remove them and further totally dry them out by hanging them in an oven for a while, A test can be done not by shorting them out, but instead by placing a load (leds) on them. Of course when dealing with very tiny voltages and currents there may not be much negative affects to be seen on the metals. I suggest to put a load instead of a short circuit on the cells, and see what they can do, as well as what happens over a longer time span.

Right now I am baking one of my cement cells in the oven to really get it totally dry. If after baking for a couple of hours does not make it dry, (4 month old cell), I don't know what will. This cell is practically dead from unknown causes, and an autopsy may be in order, but before that, I'm running it through some tests to see WHY cells die.

[Lidmotor]

Jeri Ellsworth

@All
I just discovered Jeri Ellsworth a few days ago on Youtube. Some of the people on this forum may know her but I had never heard of her before. She is a self-taught electronics professional who is amazing. She is a high school dropout who with shear determination became very succesful in advanced electronics. I have been watching some of her videos and the range goes from the very basics to the advanced stuff. I decided to post this video because she talks about failure and how it is important to success.


‪Secret to Learning Electronics - Fail and Fail Often‬‏ - YouTube

We are stumbling along on this thread but at least we are still trying. This is a worthwhile endeavor even if we are just reinventing the wheel. Maybe we will make a better one.

Here is the Wikipedia link to who Jeri Ellsworth is:

Jeri Ellsworth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is a video that she made explaining the VERY BASICS of how a galvanic cell works. It is at grade school level but we MUST understand this and not confuse it with something much more complicated.

‪Batteries - A to Z of Electronics‬‏ - YouTube

Lidmotor

[NickZ]

@ All:
Lidmotor- thanks for the links and info on Ellsworth. Great to see someone doing what they love to do, and making money at it, also.
I have not given up, but, it would sure be nice to not have to reinvent the wheel, it might not be as rewarding, though...

[ibpointless2]

I know that these cells are galvanic by our modern definition. I know a galvanic cell will corrode the plates. But I'm merely reporting what I'm seeing and what I'm seeing is that the plates on my glue cells are not corroding even though they're mostly salt.

I'm doing test to see if they'll corrode and the best test is to short the cell out as that will bring the corrosion faster. I'm not claim my cells are the end all of other cells. I'm just pointing out what I'm seeing and that is these cells are not corroding so far. The cells dry clear so if they do corrode I'll know and report it.

So far I've have gotten a calculator to run off these cells but I need to make more to get a LED to light. Here is a video of me running a calculator. ‪Glue Battery Cells powering Calculator‬‏ - YouTube

[mikrovolt]

Jeri Ellsworth is one of many like herself that have made significant
contributions, this is seen by the innovative success of the silicon valley.
She is a young maverick self taught engineer with a positive mindset.

‪The Tin Foil Dunce Cap Initiative‬‏ - YouTube

The cells some good , some not, but that is ok.
As a non corrosive layer the polyvinyl acetate may work better with graphite.
An active material could be applied after the glue composite drys. just a thought.