Bedini Earth Light

[NickZ]

@ Jim:
I have also had very good results from using the small pencil leads, although they are easily broken. But I notice that your voltage after only a couple of seconds of readings drops fast. Maybe you can mention at what levels that cell will maintain at, even after a few minutes of being connected to a meter, or to a red or white led. As it is acting as a capacitor which starts high but quickly drops. In any case that's quite a voltage its got.
The ratio of cathode to anode is a mistery, but the hardest part is getting a higher current level that will maintain its level under a load. That is much harder to do with a small cell, and is where mass is important.
NZ

[jehdds]

@ Jim:
I have also had very good results from using the small pencil leads, although they are easily broken. But I notice that your voltage after only a couple of seconds of readings drops fast. Maybe you can mention at what levels that cell will maintain at, even after a few minutes of being connected to a meter, or to a red or white led. As it is acting as a capacitor which starts high but quickly drops. In any case that's quite a voltage its got.
The ratio of cathode to anode is a mistery, but the hardest part is getting a higher current level that will maintain its level under a load. That is much harder to do with a small cell, and is where mass is important.
NZ

Thanks Nick,
Yes the voltage after sitting overnight stabilized at 2.42 volts. The cell is not a capacitor really. It is an interesting gizmo. You can drain it down with a LED, let it sit, or add an aliquot of water and it bounces back. Again, it is neat in that the bounce back does not involve recharging with current per se.
This is but scratching the surface on this mix. So, the capacity for sustained load will be perhaps proportional to the mass of not only the anode vs cathode, but the "reserve" of the mass of the electrolyte as well. I am still tinkering with the mini cells trying to see how and what electrode material is best. Next step will be larger can like cells machined out of magnesium in the "C size and D size." Has anyone else had any findings with the Zn0 epsoms cells?

Very Best Regards,
Jim

[NickZ]

Thanks for the reply Jim. I'm really glad to see that the starting voltage is so high. That gives us all some hope, as nobody has really gotten that high an output before.
I also wonder about the amount of mass of the electrolyte that is really needed. As it seams that it does not take much of an electrolyte just to allow the ions through, possibly just a thin film or layer is enough, like capacitors use.
Will that last cell light an led? And, was it you that had another cell that read 100 mAs?
I have been working on the capacitor type cells which I am now making in a 1 by 2 inch galvanized pipe, until I can get aluminum pipe, but i'm using just the carbon and the outside galvanized can, and still can get an output. That is, with no other anode like the carbon rod, or electrolyte mix. Just the two things. But I find that if I make the size of the cell smaller, the output drops much faster, or will not sustain. So, cell size is a limiting factor also.
My idea is to connect my cells to a big Joule Thief like Lasersaber is working on now, but not have to depend on the solar panel and batteries that he is using. That is my ultimate goal, for now. I'll take some pics when I get it all together, I have his type of Joule Thief working now, using my own home made 8 inch toroid coil, but I'll try it with the big 6 inch split Tv yoke ferrite core, also.

[John_Bedini]

Crystal Battery

Jim,
Good work.
I still say that the Milliamp reading is because of the internal impedance of the cell. That cell should light a 2.8 volt Led and stay until surface charge is gone. Can you do that test to see how long it takes to run down?.
John B

[minoly]

I still don't understand why people are not putting a load across the cell and then take the amp reading, while at the same time show the voltage on the cell drop. Even though the voltage drops and the amps go down, it still gives us a good basis to run off of.
BTW our cells still run the little WM using SSG ckt after all this time, we only have to add a few drops a week.

Patrick

[John_Bedini]

Impedance Crystal Cell

Minoly,
Correct you should load the cell and not let stand alone. You must form the Crystal as to which the electron flow is going. It's very important to form the lattice in which the cell is going to work. Led's have a working time in hours and so do crystal cells. This is why I keep cycling them as I want to know the maximum run times. I have seen Marcus Reids cells do the same thing here. His bigger cell we have been able to kill dead and then cycle it back to full again about 100 time now. The crystal cell is an automatic adjustment device with the load. So the impedance can change in continuous operation, works just like a transistor with heat and cold.
Leakage current goes down when cold and up when hot. Happy Sailing.
John B

[jehdds]

[QUOTE=John_Bedini;165139]Jim,
Good work.
I still say that the Milliamp reading is because of the internal impedance of the cell. That cell should light a 2.8 volt Led and stay until surface charge is gone. Can you do that test to see how long it takes to run down?.
John B[/QUOTE

John,
How long should/could the surface charge last once the load is placed on it?
Meaning, how do we ascertain what is surface vs intrinsic capacity?
By no means are my little cells what I would envision as suitable for extended large loads. By golly they light LED's but need larger mass.
I am specifically working on mixes, and geometry for building larger.
Thanks for the clarification as to note when one can know surface charge is gone. My thought was to short cell then look at it.
Or just leave it be, would the surface charge dissipate?
Thank you again
Very Best Regards,
Jim

[NextGen1967]

I still don't understand why people are not putting a load across the cell and then take the amp reading, while at the same time show the voltage on the cell drop. Even though the voltage drops and the amps go down, it still gives us a good basis to run off of.
BTW our cells still run the little WM using SSG ckt after all this time, we only have to add a few drops a week.

Patrick

@patrick,

What is the average power rating of your cell? And did you notice a declining time in water intake needing.

I agree, that would give a good indication... Having a load that takes down the voltage maybe to 75 or 50% of standing voltage. It would allow power (watt) measurements, which is a much more realistic value and is more easy to compare.

Yellow, Orange and Red led's usually work around the 2.0 volt level, with clear (transparent) lens. Green are also available in the same voltage range, tough also in many other voltages. With some luck your DMM meters could show which forward voltage the led's have, so one could use them in declining voltage order while testing.

Agreed with JB, the cells should always be on a load, as when there is potential (voltage), the Crystal structure will be forced to align. More potential difference is more forced.

Surface charge would normally dissipate in several hours, and after 12 hours most if not all would be gone. However, for this kind of cells, just place a light load to dissipate the surface charge... Normally this would drop quit rapidly. By measuring the slow down curve of the drop one could more or less determine when the surface charge is gone. I think however that with these kind type of cells, we cannot really speak of 'surface' charge.

Shorting the cell fore a few seconds will cause a 'bump'.. There would be a rapid Vdrop, but once the short is gone, the cell recovers quickly again with a rapid Vclimb which 'overshoots' the (new) standing voltage again. In this kind of cells the 'overshoot' could result in a higher voltage then before the short, because of crystal alignment.... There could actually be merit in a high continue pulse discharge for these cells due to conditioning of alignment. However, I would need to verify this myself.

--
Ron.

[Slider2732]

Was good to see the 3V reading Jim
Got some pencil 'leads' from the dollar store last week and will see about making comparison cells.
As far as ZnO, all I have is that sunburn cream stuff and it's bombed out on each cell try when using it.

Last night saw an odd phenomenon with my 'failed' cell that's still running the Ha'penny oscillator (overcooked baking soda, boric acid, alum, couple of drops of Spic+Span cleaner when the cell registered hardly anything on first building).
Poor thing is just limping along now at 0.475V, but the oscillator is still going. I think the quit level of the oscillator is approx 0.45V so it may or may not reach the 1 month run time in a couple of days.
There was a storm that went through yesterday evening and the cell was on 0.500V. With seeing a rise to 0.504V in the first few minutes, I took it outside onto our porch and let it sit there for a while. Was my wife's idea about it being closer to the natural forces at work and away from any household frequencies.
The reading after half an hour went down, for the first time ever in such conditions to 0.483V.
So, I brought it back in, disconnected the cell and let it rest for 1 hour. It's the only break it's ever had and at this point in its life, something had to change for the better. It rose to 0.567V.
It was put back on the circuit and the mV began to fall back off over several hours. Now at 0.475V it seems the difference was a fluffy charge, rather than a replenishing charge.
If the cell had remained stationary and not been touched at all, the reading now would have been expected to be approx 0.492V....so, removing the load may have been detrimental.

[John_Bedini]

Crystal Cells

At all
Maybe I did not say it right. Surface charge would be the charge developed at the beginning of the cells life. Later it would settle down, say to a working voltage of 1 to .5 volts under load this is where the curve is important. The cell can and does sustained under this load for a time period, then you can notice if the cell is gaining which means the cell has formed as a constant current source semiconductor. Impedance is the next issue as the load seems to be divided in the crystal mixture. So if the cell can do 30 Ma then the working part is 15 Ma, you must balance the load to 1/2 the total short circuit current. So when Jim showed the current under short circuit of 14 Ma then working under load it should run at 2.5 to 7 Ma with no problem.
John B

[Slider2732]

Thanks for the clarification John.
I hadn't realised about the 1/2 loading
What has been noticed though, are the very fine lines at which a 'tipping point' can be reached. Very fine for my cells anyway, which typically output only a couple of mA for long terms tests, if that.
Too small a load and a cell will die at a week old. Too large a load and the same thing. But, Goldilocks loading sees cells of exactly the same mixture trundle along for much longer.
In the case last night, the cell had been very happy, for what it is, to drop slightly as it went per day, then charge itself a bit with electrical storms.
When disconnected from that apparently happy balance, it reacted negatively.
Cell now reads 0.476V, so it seems to be stabilizing out.

However, it might need a defibrilator applying to get through to 1 month of running on Monday.
The dog in the film 'There's Something About Mary' springs to mind

[ibpointless2]

Crystal Cell powering a pulse motor

Pulse Motor being powered by Crystal Cell - YouTube

[jehdds]

Guys,
JB is correct on the cells internal impedance issue. Here is a video showing TWO carbon based electrodes of two different mass and surface area as related to measured voltage output, Resistance, Current levels etc.
I will be off bench for a bit. All thoughts welcome and I appreciate your patience with my experiments. Still just scratching the surface.
DUAL CATHODE TO ANODE RATIO FINDINGS V, I, R, IN SAME CELL - YouTube
Very Best Regards,
Jim

[ibpointless2]

Guys,
JB is correct on the cells internal impedance issue. Here is a video showing TWO carbon based electrodes of two different mass and surface area as related to measured voltage output, Resistance, Current levels etc.
I will be off bench for a bit. All thoughts welcome and I appreciate your patience with my experiments. Still just scratching the surface.
DUAL CATHODE TO ANODE RATIO FINDINGS V, I, R, IN SAME CELL - YouTube
Very Best Regards,
Jim

It doesn't feel like a fair test. A carbon welding rod is not the same as Pencil lead. It would be fair to stick with the same thing. For example use multiple pencil leads wrapped up together instead of the carbon welding rod, this will make the test more fair.

[jehdds]

It doesn't feel like a fair test. A carbon welding rod is not the same as Pencil lead. It would be fair to stick with the same thing. For example use multiple pencil leads wrapped up together instead of the carbon welding rod, this will make the test more fair.

Agreed.
Fair enough, but it does still point out there is something
To surface area of the cathode can skew findings as well as perhaps performance, or so it seems.
Very best regards,
Jim