Bedini Earth Light

[Lidmotor]

Good research

This cell called the "Daniell Cell" was made to avoid the problems associated with hydrogen bubbles.
Sort of similar to Johns way of using the hydrogen gas to maintain (or increase?) the cells output levels.
I thought that we were getting complicated in our cell designs, but it looks like this has all been done before, many years ago.
Kind of looks like some of the cells that we have made, now don't it???

Daniell cell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

NickZ

Thanks Nick. Research is a good thing. Above the blackboard in my 7th grade drafting class was a sign that read---

"Learn from others mistakes because you will not live long enough to make them all yourself."

Now that I am old I understand that much better. We simply don't have enough time to make ALL of the mistakes ourselves. Much time spent here on this project has been this------>

More effort spent researching and learning about the work done by others perhaps would have saved us many hours of work building something that was already done long ago.

Lidmotor

[NickZ]

All and All:
Learn from others mistakes, that gave me a good laugh, yes, it's so true.
But there was also a lot of knowledge in the old books and experiments.
This has been a tough cookie to crack, but fun all the way, even though its also been a bit frustrating. Like one step forward and a couple steps back.

@ Lidmotor: thanks for the minimum voltage/current levels needed for the cells to run the exciter circuits. I was thinking to combine some different cells to reach that 1.5v and 30 mAs, or higher levels. The mAs are the hard part to maintain without dropping. Is your Mg fire-starter cell still holding up on the exciter?
thanks again,
NickZ

[John_Bedini]

old work in a new bag

NickZ,
I'm not quiet sure that the cells I'm making are working like a Daniell Cell since it uses Zinc and copper in salutation. In that type cell you would need to watch it carefully and the Zinc would disappear after a short time. I would suspect that Carbon and zinc would do the same thing forming Hydrogen on one electrode. You must remove the Hydrogen in that type of cell so you need a depolarizer chemical to sop it up. The Alum Battery was done many years ago used also in telegraph but they never went dead because of that.

I know that some here have used carbon poles from batteries and crushed carbon, I tend to stay away from the mix as it could be trouble. But it's all trouble when your trying to do something. The mix I gave is very hard to work with to. Pasting is the easy way to get around that as you just cut a new piece of material. Manganese (III) or 2 will help in the mix as it does collect the Hydrogen gas from forming on one electrode. The real question is how long will the cell run giving power.

These cells usually run around 50 Ma at the start and level off at 10 to 20 Ma until the material is dry. Chuck and I have seen them fail because of the insulating material between the electrode but not from galvanic action of the Magnesium electrode. as I said 1 to 3% is not a problem. The problem is feeding them water to keep them going.
John B

[jehdds]

"The problem is feeding them water to keep them going."
John B

John,
Did you ever try placing hydrated sodium polyacrylate around your cell encapsulating it in a blanket of material that ever so slowly allows water to evaporate and perhaps be absorbed by capillary action at the level of the electrolyte? The material can feel like fake snow and is used as such. IT IS NOT WET to the touch really and when it dries can be reused. Just wondering if you ever used it. I wonder if you could premix MnO2/3 into the water before hydrating the polyacrylate and there by would not bother the mg. Just a thought.
Very Best Regards,
Jim

[ibpointless2]

I think Plengo is on to something with his cells that uses capillary action.

The reason why water can go against gravity in the capillary action is due to water growing a small "liquid crystal" where it meets the air. This liquid crystal grows just like with any crystal would. This is why you can't create a fountain from the capillary action, the water is in a liquid crystal state and it can't break free from it. I'm going to be looking into making a cell that uses the capillary action, it makes me wonder if water in a liquid crystal state would be better than it being in a just plain liquid state? Use the water as the crystal?

[John_Bedini]

The Manganese (III) works the best at protecting the pure Magnesium

Jim,
Yes I have done that and Chuck and I have seen some strange thing that take place, epically when using Epsom Salts. I have also seen the material in the mixture disappear leaving behind an unknown metal plated to the Magnesium but not the normal Galvanic action. The thing I found is that adding The Manganese (III) works the best at protecting the pure Magnesium electrode as this seems to thwart the process to a .1% level.

I'm building some power sucking switching circuits so I want to see the effects of this reaction. I have taken the old LM3909 circuit and Chuck and I have made it discreet on a PC board it seems to run down to .35 to .39 volts but it works better at 1 to 3 volts @ 2 Ma it strobes 8 super bright Leds at once. The Circuit has been out of production for years, but now everybody wants it because of the low power use. It was the original charge pump oscillator IC The charge pump doubles the voltage by using a capacitor and then switching the capacitor in series with the battery. What I found was that it does not discharge all the way and returns a big pulse to the crystal cells almost running on it's own energy more or less. A blinking light on these cells could go for years under the right conditions.
John B

[jehdds]

Jim,
Yes I have done that and Chuck and I have seen some strange thing that take place, epically when using Epsom Salts. I have also seen the material in the mixture disappear leaving behind an unknown metal plated to the Magnesium but not the normal Galvanic action. The thing I found is that adding The Manganese (III) works the best at protecting the pure Magnesium electrode as this seems to thwart the process to a .1% level.

I'm building some power sucking switching circuits so I want to see the effects of this reaction. I have taken the old LM3909 circuit and Chuck and I have made it discreet on a PC board it seems to run down to .35 to .39 volts but it works better at 1 to 3 volts @ 2 Ma it strobes 8 super bright Led at once. The Circuit has been out of production for years, but now everybody wants it because of the low power use. It was the original charge pump oscillator IC The charge pump doubles the voltage by using a capacitor and then switching the capacitor in series with the battery. What I found was that it does not discharge all the way and returns a big pulse to the crystal cells almost running on it's own energy more or less. A blinking light on these cells could go for years under the right conditions.
John B

John,
That is ALL very interesting. Was the deposited "metal" a hindrance to the function of the cell, meaning did the NaPolyacrylate kill the cell due to the deposit?
How long was the poly against the cell before this happened?
Very Very Interesting.
How long would you estimate for your cell after initial fabrication and hydration the interval would be before:
1. it goes back to sleep and dries out if not in use
2. Interval between watering if using an oscillator etc.
John,Thanks for this data.
Jim

[NickZ]

I know that the Daniell Cell may not be just like what John has in mind, but, it gives an example of what was done before about the hydrogen gases. Each electrolyte mix may have its own way to stabilize or utilize the gases that are given off. But the longevity of the cell is what needs to be seen, as the stronger the cell output the more hydrogen gas that needs to be dealt with and converted.
Funny thing about the copper oxide treatment, it started out in a cell not giving much voltage, but as time went by it started working better and better. Also the load or draw does seam to activate it, or wake the cell up.
John, I think I know what you mean about the carbon. Even though it may produce the best and highest output, it may not be able to withstand the hydrogen contamination, as compare to the treated copper. Its all trouble, but its also a learning experience, and all good fun.

[John_Bedini]

deposit was metal

Jim,
Yes the deposit was metal as Chuck noticed it, the failure was because I used a paper towel with the pasted mix, it was a test cell. The way I showed it in the video works the best. The cell usually lasts two to four days before it needs water again. In open air about three hours and then you must water it again. It also dries completely out and sits there without any adverse effect. The Manganese (III) does make the cell last much longer when sealed in the box. No hindrance to the cell at all.
John B

[John_Bedini]

Funny thing about the copper oxide treatment

I know that the Daniell Cell may not be just like what John has in mind, but, it gives an example of what was done before about the hydrogen gases. Each electrolyte mix may have its own way to stabilize or utilize the gases that are given off. But the longevity of the cell is what needs to be seen, as the stronger the cell output the more hydrogen gas that needs to be dealt with and converted.
Funny thing about the copper oxide treatment, it started out in a cell not giving much voltage, but as time went by it started working better and better. Also the load or draw does seam to activate it, or wake the cell up.
John, I think I know what you mean about the carbon. Even though it may produce the best and highest output, it may not be able to withstand the hydrogen contamination, as compare to the treated copper. Its all trouble, but its also a learning experience, and all good fun.

NickZ,
Yes I have noticed the same thing and yes it's all good fun. But now the serious stuff starts with data.
John B

[Lidmotor]

Hydrating the Hydrate Cell

@All
The "self-watering" setup that I showed in my last video has a problem----too much watering. Last night the cell over watered itself and drown. It was way down in power this morning but did recover when it dried out. The trick is getting a wicking setup to just give the cell a tiny amount of water. It is very similar to adjusting the flame on a keroscene lantern.

@Nick
My replication of John B's Hydrate cell has gone down to 10 to 20mA when it is refreshed with a little water. It isn't really enough to keep an Exciter running very long. When it dries out the power goes way way down. That is why I am working on this "self-watering" idea.

@John B.
I'm anxious to hear more about your work with the LM3909 chip. I guess Radio Shack used to sell them years ago. What comes around goes around.

Lidmotor

[John_Bedini]

The Charge Pump oscillator for crystal cells.

@ Lidmotor,

The LM3909 chip was around during the 70 and 80's but nobody wanted to use it. If you search the internet you will find two or three engineers that have tried to make this discreet circuit work, but they do not grantee it. The problem with what they have done is that an integrated circuit is precise in it's values. Just saying you can use discreet transistors is way off base because of the gain of whatever they used.

The resistors also must be precise. Example,, If the circuit says 400.2 ohms you would have to order a special resistor, standard value would be 330 or 410 ohms. The working theory behind this IC is a "Charge Pump" the oscillator is a self starting and forced to run, that is no problem as it is just an oscillator. The charging part is the real problem because it must charge the capacitor without any sag.

The pump charges the capacitor to battery level then the oscillator switches the dump, this puts the Led through a series resistor and in series with the battery or crystal cell so what you have done is trick the leds into believing the voltage is double but it's not exactly that. But what everybody is forgetting about is the battery or cell has an impedance to and this must be calculated into the circuit. So the down fall of the discreet circuit is this big series path that the led lights through. The answer is in the gain of the switch that charges and discharges. The remainder of the voltage is returned through the cells backwards.

My solution to that problem was a Darlington switch circuit with a Hfe of 5000. The only transistor is the MPS A13 so we popped it in there. The other thing is the breadboard test is not the same as the circuit board layout and stray capacitance and inductance is all effecting circuit perimeters . So you must adjust things after that. It's not that hard if your going to just make one circuit, but don't expect everyone to work the same right out of the box until you have a board and you have selected all the values again. After that the circuits should all run the same at 1% resistors.
John B

[jehdds]

@All
The "self-watering" setup that I showed in my last video has a problem----too much watering. Last night the cell over watered itself and drown. It was way down in power this morning but did recover when it dried out. The trick is getting a wicking setup to just give the cell a tiny amount of water. It is very similar to adjusting the flame on a keroscene lantern.


Lidmotor

Dear Lidmotor,
Maybe it needs to work like a plant.
Updraft capillary action via small capillary tube to the BASE of the cell and have a long enough thin gap to allow the evaporative action.
Just a thought.
Jim

[Lidmotor]

LM3909 circuit diagram

@ Lidmotor,

The LM3909 chip was around during the 70 and 80's but nobody wanted to use it. If you search the internet you will find two or three engineers that have tried to make this discreet circuit work, but they do not grantee it. The problem with what they have done is that an integrated circuit is precise in it's values. Just saying you can use discreet transistors is way off base because of the gain of whatever they used.

The resistors also must be precise. Example,, If the circuit says 400.2 ohms you would have to order a special resistor, standard value would be 330 or 410 ohms. The working theory behind this IC is a "Charge Pump" the oscillator is a self starting and forced to run, that is no problem as it is just an oscillator. The charging part is the real problem because it must charge the capacitor without any sag.

The pump charges the capacitor to battery level then the oscillator switches the dump, this puts the Led through a series resistor and in series with the battery or crystal cell so what you have done is trick the leds into believing the voltage is double but it's not exactly that. But what everybody is forgetting about is the battery or cell has an impedance to and this must be calculated into the circuit. So the down fall of the discreet circuit is this big series path that the led lights through. The answer is in the gain of the switch that charges and discharges. The remainder of the voltage is returned through the cells backwards.

My solution to that problem was a Darlington switch circuit with a Hfe of 5000. The only transistor is the MPS A13 so we popped it in there. The other thing is the breadboard test is not the same as the circuit board layout and stray capacitance and inductance is all effecting circuit perimeters . So you must adjust things after that. It's not that hard if your going to just make one circuit, but don't expect everyone to work the same right out of the box until you have a board and you have selected all the values again. After that the circuits should all run the same at 1% resistors.
John B

I found this and you are right about the LM3909 circuit being complicated. She ain't no Joule Thief.

LM3909 Oscillator

Lidmotor

[John_Bedini]

circuit LM3909

I found this and you are right about the LM3909 circuit being complicated. She ain't no Joule Thief.

LM3909 Oscillator

Lidmotor

@Lidmotor,
You going to give it a try?... Chuck and I also found that circuit and had to change all kind of things. But you get the basic Idea of how it works. It took a while to lay it all out. LM in the diagram does not give the gain of the devices But I have gone by the factory diagram. To do it right I would need a real chip. The 2n2222 worked better then the 2n3904 and the switch worked with the MPS A18 the 2N3906 was fine.
John B