help with my first Bedini SSG circuit

[dR-Green]

@Neight
Just a word of advice; watch your output wires and make sure the are connected. 3055 will not survive hv spike if they become loose. It is rated at 60V, if I remember well.


Vtech

I dunno. As you know I've popped one 3055 by using 2 parallel 22 SWG wires on the same circuit, but I can leave it running for a while without any output connected. The neon is turning black, and while this is happening the scope shows 220-300v spikes. I don't like to leave it running like this for more than a minute, but I think it's interesting to watch. Sometimes when the neons are a little worn (10+ seconds of use) and have gone from bright plasma-like purple to orange, there seem to be large bursts of energy, a lot brighter flashes that are the same plasma purple as when the neon is brand new.

I'll just post this because this amuses me, these are the neons I'm using

WireEnded Neon Type : Small Bulbs Lamps : Maplin

Q)

can these wire ended neons run off 100v dc?

A)

No sorry this product does not support that.

... But they will off a couple of AA batteries

[dR-Green]

Oh yeah... I use AA batteries or a 4A power supply when I disconnect the output, to at least try to limit the current I suppose. The one time I popped the transistor I had a 12Ah battery on the input and it wasn't earthed, so I blame one of those conditions or a combination for popping the transistor.

[Neight]

I dunno. As you know I've popped one 3055 by using 2 parallel 22 SWG wires on the same circuit, but I can leave it running for a while without any output connected. The neon is turning black, and while this is happening the scope shows 220-300v spikes. I don't like to leave it running like this for more than a minute, but I think it's interesting to watch. Sometimes when the neons are a little worn (10+ seconds of use) and have gone from bright plasma-like purple to orange, there seem to be large bursts of energy, a lot brighter flashes that are the same plasma purple as when the neon is brand new.

I'll just post this because this amuses me, these are the neons I'm using

WireEnded Neon Type : Small Bulbs Lamps : Maplin

... But they will off a couple of AA batteries

nice!! you have to love when you can beat the manufacturers specs like that!!
I have a few transistors just in case i do blow one, but so far, i have done the same as you. disconnected the positive of the secondary battery just to watch the neon flash a bit. I also don't leave it go for long, but it is neat to see it happen.
I need to get a AA connector so i can play with smaller power supplies. right now I am working on improving the efficiency of my system, cause it is still drawing a bit more power than it should. I need to shorten my coil a bit, and also need to work with my rotor some. what i have right now is a cd platform and i didn't pull off the ring magnet or circuit under it yet. will likely work on all that this weekend.
I have some more parts being delivered sometime today that i am going to mess around with, and just keep learning!!
one of the next things i would like to get is a scope, so if anyone has any suggestions for a good scope at a reasonable price, i would really appreciate it. I know literally nothing about buying or using a scope, so it would have to be relatively simple to use for a beginner (if such a thing exists)
thanks for the input dR-Green!
N8

[tjnlsn255]

N8,

On Ebay do a search for Oscilloscope.....

Check out the Nano Pocket Scope on Ebay if don't mind it coming from China.

$71 buck with free shipping....

John Bedini used one of these in one of his recent videos....cool....

Just a thought.....

Todd

[Neight]

Thanks Todd for the tip on where to find a scope and what to look for! very helpful

I have one more question, and it is pretty basic, but I don't want to screw anything up, so I want to double check before i do anything wrong.
I am trying to introduce some control in my build, so i bought the SSG kit from the rcharge website. Now instead of the 2N3055 transistor, I have the MJL21194. I also have a very handy circuit board to mount it all on. actually i guess I have two questions.
1. for the transistor, how to i attach the transistor to the heat sink? there is a film that goes in between the two, and I am not sure if it just lays down on the heat sink, or if it should be fixed to it in some way. there is a hole in the top of the transistor, and one in the board which i am assuming is to fasten it all down, but that would require me to drill a hole in the heat sink, which i do not have the proper equipment for. can the transistor just lay on top of the heat sink, or am i simply over-thinking this one again?

2. there is a spot to put a jumper to bypass the pot once you have your resistance tuned. do i need to have that jumper in regardless, or is that something to put in once i have a resistor in the circuit and no longer need the pot. since I intend to use this board for a while, possibly on several different setups, i do not want to permanently bypass the pot, because I may have to tune my circuit more than once. I just need to know if i need that jumper either way, or will the circuit work without it? also, if i do eventually want to bypass the pot, would the pot have to be removed, or can i just turn it to 0 and leave it in? I am pretty sure this will work with the pot in and turned off, but i am not as certain that the circuit will work without the jumper in. trying to figure this out on my own, i traced the circuit lines on the back of the board, and to me it looks like the jumper is needed to complete the circuit, but i don't want to solder it in place if it doesn't need to be in there yet.

if anyone here has used one of these kits before and knows what i am even talking about, I could really use a bit of guidance here

thanks in advance to anyone who can help me out!
N8

[blackchisel97]

Thanks Todd for the tip on where to find a scope and what to look for! very helpful

I have one more question, and it is pretty basic, but I don't want to screw anything up, so I want to double check before i do anything wrong.
I am trying to introduce some control in my build, so i bought the SSG kit from the rcharge website. Now instead of the 2N3055 transistor, I have the MJL21194. I also have a very handy circuit board to mount it all on. actually i guess I have two questions.
1. for the transistor, how to i attach the transistor to the heat sink? there is a film that goes in between the two, and I am not sure if it just lays down on the heat sink, or if it should be fixed to it in some way. there is a hole in the top of the transistor, and one in the board which i am assuming is to fasten it all down, but that would require me to drill a hole in the heat sink, which i do not have the proper equipment for. can the transistor just lay on top of the heat sink, or am i simply over-thinking this one again?

2. there is a spot to put a jumper to bypass the pot once you have your resistance tuned. do i need to have that jumper in regardless, or is that something to put in once i have a resistor in the circuit and no longer need the pot. since I intend to use this board for a while, possibly on several different setups, i do not want to permanently bypass the pot, because I may have to tune my circuit more than once. I just need to know if i need that jumper either way, or will the circuit work without it? also, if i do eventually want to bypass the pot, would the pot have to be removed, or can i just turn it to 0 and leave it in? I am pretty sure this will work with the pot in and turned off, but i am not as certain that the circuit will work without the jumper in. trying to figure this out on my own, i traced the circuit lines on the back of the board, and to me it looks like the jumper is needed to complete the circuit, but i don't want to solder it in place if it doesn't need to be in there yet.

if anyone here has used one of these kits before and knows what i am even talking about, I could really use a bit of guidance here

thanks in advance to anyone who can help me out!
N8

Neight, For bifilar coil you don't need a heatsink, especially for 21194.
When tuned this circuit shouldn't pull more than 150 -250mA, depending on wire used. In case of 250mA (0.25A) at 12V input we're talking 3W and this is the most what your circuit will draw. Transistor is switching, not "ON" all the time and it should run cold. If you would like to introduce higher input such 24 or 36V and have coil with #18 wire than having a heatsink may not be bad idea. I never saw this kit but the hole in pcb is to mount the transistor so you'll need to have a hole in the heatsink for the screw. Film goes between the transistor and heatsink and it doesn't need to be fastened to it. It provides good conductivity for heat but insulates electrically transistor from heatsink.
As for the jumper, You have to trace the line and see what needs to be there to complete the circuit - trigger coil - pot/resistor - base (left leg when looking at the face with printed number). I could tell you but I want you to figure this out on your own. You can keep the pot permanently if you want. One warning; while it may be amusing to watch neon glowing purple while having charging battery disconnected, it is very easy to burn your pot inside. Those pots have carbon conductive/resistant layer which may starts to arc and burn a spot. This is very common experience among SSG builders. There are pots with wire instead of carbon. They can be rated at 1W - 100W and can survive as long as their power rating isn't drastically violated.


Vtech

[Neight]

once again, thanks blackchisel97!
That helps a lot, I found a drill i can borrow to drill the heat sink so i can put it in, just for good measure.

as for the jumper, I was not understanding exactly how it works :/
I didn't realize you could switch sides of it once it was already on. it has three pins and a slide on sleeve that allows you to change your circuit without having to take anything off or replace any parts. I could tell that it needed to be in place, but I was not able to tell which way to put it in so that it routed the power correctly. once again, i was over thinking it. I stared at the circuit lines for a while, and then started fiddling with the jumper. the top half came off and I honestly thought i broke it for a moment. the more i looked at it, i realized it was supposed to be two pieces, and that is how you switch the circuit from pot to fixed resistor. It took me a little while, but i have it figured out and working again
when i said i was brand new at all of this, i was not kidding, there is a learning curve here and I am doing my best to follow it
thanks for making me think my way through this one, I was right in the first place, and it was more about me doubting my own judgement than it was not being able to understand what i needed to do
I am getting the hang of all this, and i really do appreciate all the help!!
until next time...
thanks
N8

[blackchisel97]

once again, thanks blackchisel97!
That helps a lot, I found a drill i can borrow to drill the heat sink so i can put it in, just for good measure.

as for the jumper, I was not understanding exactly how it works :/
I didn't realize you could switch sides of it once it was already on. it has three pins and a slide on sleeve that allows you to change your circuit without having to take anything off or replace any parts. I could tell that it needed to be in place, but I was not able to tell which way to put it in so that it routed the power correctly. once again, i was over thinking it. I stared at the circuit lines for a while, and then started fiddling with the jumper. the top half came off and I honestly thought i broke it for a moment. the more i looked at it, i realized it was supposed to be two pieces, and that is how you switch the circuit from pot to fixed resistor. It took me a little while, but i have it figured out and working again
when i said i was brand new at all of this, i was not kidding, there is a learning curve here and I am doing my best to follow it
thanks for making me think my way through this one, I was right in the first place, and it was more about me doubting my own judgement than it was not being able to understand what i needed to do
I am getting the hang of all this, and i really do appreciate all the help!!
until next time...
thanks
N8

I'm glad you solved the problem on your own. Please don't get me wrong, I'll help but I know that with your enthusiasm towards this project you'll learn very fast on your own. You'll have much more satisfaction from getting project done on your own with little help - if necessary. This will provide you with kinetic energy rather than static field which will dissipate in short time.
Actually, this had also effect on me and I decided to refurbish my old solid state charger. Always postponed because I constantly use this to restore people's batteries. Nothing fancy, bamboo cutting board and acrylic front but I like it and what's more important - it works like a charm for the past 2 years.


Vtech

[Neight]

You'll have much more satisfaction from getting project done on your own with little help - if necessary. This will provide you with kinetic energy rather than static field which will dissipate in short time.
Actually, this had also effect on me and I decided to refurbish my old solid state charger. Always postponed because I constantly use this to restore people's batteries. Nothing fancy, bamboo cutting board and acrylic front but I like it and what's more important - it works like a charm for the past 2 years.


Vtech

I love the bit about kinetic energy and static field, that one had me cracking up
a few of the questions i have asked I already had a pretty good idea of the answer, and was mostly seeking confirmation, which was the case with the jumper. I could tell i needed it, but it took me a minute to figure out how it worked. I had never seen one like that before, and i didn't want to put it in wrong and burn out my transistor. It's mostly an issue with my confidence right now. I really feel like i only know enough to be dangerous to my own equipment at this point, but the further i get in the project, and the more i learn, I am getting much more confident and willing to try things on my own I will get there, it's all about seat time at this point.

I checked out the photo of your solid state charger, very cool! looks like another project I would like to tackle down the road!

I really appreciate all the advice and guidance you have given me on here, and I hope to be able to pass it along as I keep gaining experience and knowledge!!

N8

[cheese]

I need your help

Hi Neight I was watching your videos and I had simmilar things happen to me. I would like to ask you how you improved your motor after the only way you could move it was manually. I would really appreciate your help and am getting very frustrated with the motor. Also when everyone was telling you to fix the resistance what did you do about it. Please respond soon.

[Neight]

Hi Neight I was watching your videos and I had simmilar things happen to me. I would like to ask you how you improved your motor after the only way you could move it was manually. I would really appreciate your help and am getting very frustrated with the motor. Also when everyone was telling you to fix the resistance what did you do about it. Please respond soon.

Hello cheese, sorry to hear you are having trouble, I know the feeling

Most of what i did is right here in this forum and on my youtube channel, but I will see if I can help in any way.

First thing you need to double check is that your circuit is wired correctly, there is a video i used to follow step by step instructions at this link...
YouTube - introvertebrate's Channel
if you follow that video step by step, then you should have a properly wired circuit. Also you might have to switch around your coil wires a bit to make sure you have the pulses from your power coil pulsing North. if you have a compass, you can check to make sure all of your magnets on your rotor are facing north out, and if you coil is wired and pulsing correctly, then you should be able to manually pulse your coil and at least move your rotor enough to tell if it's working. How I would manually pulse my coil was to use a diode or LED to tap the leads on your neon, which should pulse your coil and move your magnets. also, I found out a bit too late that the coil needs to be wound clockwise around your spool on these SSG circuits.
you will also want to check the resistance on your power coil with a multimeter. It should fall between 4-6 ohms on the meter. mine was 7.5, and it will work with that resistance, but you might as well get that right now while you are still working with everything. if your resistance on the coil is too high, just take some turns off and test it until it falls in the correct range. if it's too low, you might not have enough coil wound, I was told about 150' is about what you want to shoot for, though i don't know how many turns that makes, cause i haven't counted mine.
also the spool you use will make a difference. you want the inside diameter of the spool core to be as small as you can, and long if you can get it. my coil core right now is about .75" diameter x 1.5" long, which is still a bit too wide and too long, but it's enough to make it work. for the core of the coil, i used a bunch of small nails (make sure the are attracted to the magnets before you put them in) packed into the core of the spool as tight as i could get them. the copper coated welding rods are supposed to work best, but i have no used them just yet. get them in there very tight so it fill up the whole core of the spool and either glue them in, or at least tape both ends closed really well so the magnets don't pull them out, that could be a bit dangerous if you motor is spinning
if you have checked your coil resistance, the winding of the coil, the polarity of your magnets, and your circuit and everything is done correctly, then you may have a bad transistor or potentiometer. you can check your potentiometer and your resistor with your multimeter the same way you did with your coil.
on your pot, you want to put the leads of the meter on the leads of the pot and turn the dial, if the resistance doesn't change, you might have a bad pot. get a different one, then test it and wire it up and see if that doesn't make a difference. as for the transistor, i still don't know a good way to test them, and if it's not working, you can build another circuit around a new transistor and see if that doesn't work. there are ways to test transistors, but unfortunately, i don't know them. I got lucky and mine was working, so i didn't have to fool with it.
My actual problem wound up being weak magnets. at first i was using very small neo magnets (1/8"x 1/8" cylinders) buried in a cork. then i tried some 1/2" x 1/4" ceramics, which were also too weak. what ended up working for me were using the same ceramic magnets with some 1/2" x 1/8" neo magnets on the end of those. i can tell you from experience you will want to secure your magnets to your rotor very well, because it doesn't take much to send them flying once your rotor takes off.

check all of your parts, make sure they are working properly, double check that you have them put together right, according to the schematic, and make sure you have your coil wound correctly and that it is both long enough and has low enough resistance. if everything you can check by sight or with meters shows to be working right, then you might need different magnets. too weak and it won't do anything because they wont trigger the power coil, and too strong and they may not move because they are attracted to the core of the coil too strongly.

My best advice would be to build the motor according to the original instruction from Bedini himself. I found out the hard way that if you start making changes to the original design to use what you have on hand, there gets to be a lot of little variables that are difficult to tune correctly.

if you need a link to the original direction, let me know and i can get you one.

that is about as much as i know at this point, and i hope it helps give you some ideas of things to try. I ended up getting a bit lucky and had it all right the first time, and was just being too impatient to wait for my magnets to come in the mail. once i had some stronger magnets, my motor took right off.
good luck, and If you need anything else, feel free to ask, I may be able to come up with another suggestion or two if you have more specific questions
N8

[cheese]

Thanks for the advice

Earlier in the comments it said something about the magnets being the same size as the core, is it bad if they are 2-2.5 times bigger? How would I test the resistance, through just one wire in the bifilar coil at a time or both at the same time.

[cheese]

Thanks for the advice continued

I would appreciate a blueprint from bedini himself. Thank you very much.

[Neight]

Earlier in the comments it said something about the magnets being the same size as the core, is it bad if they are 2-2.5 times bigger? How would I test the resistance, through just one wire in the bifilar coil at a time or both at the same time.

I think you should be safe with magnets bigger than your core, but there is a chance they will be attracted too strongly to the metal core, and it will cause too much drag for the motor to run efficiently, or at all. it depends on the type of magnets, if they are ceramic, you may be ok, neo magnets have a much stronger field and may not want to spin as well if they are too big.
and to test the resistance, you want to only test the power coil with the ohm setting on your meter. the trigger coil will have a much higher resistance than the power coil because it is a smaller gauge.
Like i said, my coil ran ok with the 7.5 ohm resistance, but i think i can make it more efficient if I take off enough turns to get it in the 4-6 ohm range.

hope this helps
N8

[Neight]

I would appreciate a blueprint from bedini himself. Thank you very much.

here is a link to the schematic which contains much of the info you need. if you follow this, they say it will work the first time, every time. I am in the process of building this very thing, and will let you know how it goes

http://rpmgt.org/Schematic2.jpg