help with my first Bedini SSG circuit

[blackchisel97]

I have not quit trying since my last post here, and still cannot get it to work. I have a couple of questions:
1.Will the ciruit work if the resistance in the coil is less than 4?
2.Is there a big problem with using 6 volt batteries?
3. Could my problem lie in the fact that I'm using strong neodymium magnets?

I would like to point out I just made a new circuit because my old one was getting really disorganized. The circuit is doing absolutly nothing except for lighting the neon bulb, and is not occilating like yours did when it was not working.

Thank you

Hi cheese

Answering your questions first:
1. it might but with some adjustments to the components
My solid state devices have 100' of #18 which has 4.4Ohm per 1000'. AWG #24 has 22 Ohms per 1000' and #26 - 35 Ohms. However, triggering with magnet and solid state are slightly different animals.
2. while is possible to tune it after to run at 6V it may be a problem, especially with low impedance coil
3. Definitely yes.
It is possible to get it working with neo but I wouldn't recommend first build being neo rotor. This magnets are more powerful in terms of Gauss and will saturate coil core when the gap between the core and magnets is too small. Saturation will prevent sharp collapse of magnetic field and generating inductive spike. For this to happen changes in MF must be abrupt not in slow motion due to the core reaction. You can find this by measuring retained magnetism in metals which came in contact with ceramic or neo magnets.

I have built (and still have) small SSG with double stack 3/4" ceramic magnets, GR 5 - craft magnets. This small rotor, which is 4 CD's sanded and glued together, spins over 1000rpm and it is capable of charging small lead acid batteries such as 5 - 12Ah.
This is common temptation among first time builders to make this powerful by using powerful magnets. Wrong. It's not the magnets what makes SSG efficient energizer and charger.

Where is your neon connected? I'm surprised it is lit, which is the sign of high voltage present. This can only happen if either rotor is running and circuit is working or your coil is self oscillating and circuit running in solid state mode due to the high resistance in the base of tranny.


Vtech

[cheese]

My neon is connected to my base and my collector on the transistor. Is that not the right place? If not please tell me.
Would a picture of the circuit be helpful?

[blackchisel97]

My neon is connected to my base and my collector on the transistor. Is that not the right place? If not please tell me.
Would a picture of the circuit be helpful?

Are you sure this is a neon not a small grain o wheat bulb?
Neon doesn't have filament which glows when current passes through. Instead, just two not connected wires in glass tube filled with noble gas. This gas will start to glow when there is enough potential across both wires, such as 70 -80V.
The reason for neon being incorporated in SSG circuit is not much to protect your transistor but to let you know that hv is present - which means your coil is firing. When it starts to glow very bright it is warning you of poor connection to the charging battery. Pretty much as "Oh s**t!" light. Neon suppose to be connected between collector and emitter of oscillating transistor.
I can't imagine there would be enough potential between the base and collector to fire a neon.


Vtech

[ZeropointEnergy]

Coil resistance

I have not quit trying since my last post here, and still cannot get it to work. I have a couple of questions:
1.Will the ciruit work if the resistance in the coil is less than 4?
2.Is there a big problem with using 6 volt batteries?
3. Could my problem lie in the fact that I'm using strong neodymium magnets?

I would like to point out I just made a new circuit because my old one was getting really disorganized. The circuit is doing absolutly nothing except for lighting the neon bulb, and is not occilating like yours did when it was not working.

Thank you

Blackchisel covered all your issues very clearly.
1.) Your not likely to get the motor spinning unless your in the 4-6 Ohm range as stated in the posts here. (with fine tuning maybe though not easy)
2.) I found with my SSG that 6-9V was very hard to get the rotor sustained and 12V or two 6V in series should eliminate your problem.
3.) Yes, there affecting the results I have neodymium magnets the same dimensions as the ferrite ones which I have placed in the working model. However, I wont use the neodymium (NiB) untill I have abundant experience in understanding what is going on with the relationship of the magnets on the rotor verse the EM generated from the coil.

My tip is make sure you have 650 turns atleast and your coil is in the 4-6 Ohm range and add 4 magnets at even 90 degree spacing at 2 widths (in case there too close the magnet spacing), now you can adjust the air gap between the magnets. And determine if the rotor acts as a single magnet ( if the case make a larger rotor to compensate. )

Regards
Zero

[ZeropointEnergy]

Thanks

Excellent!!
congrats on getting it moving, it sure is fun to watch it spin up isn't is!!

The LED timing light is a great way to tune them, works really well.
Another thing to try, if you have a meter that reads mA, is to put your meter on the power battery's positive lead and set to read mA. start your motor with the highest resistance let it get up to speed. once it's up to speed, start lowering the resistance on your pot. watch the meter while you do this, and when it gets to it's sweet spot, you should see the current drop.
mine will go from over 100mA right down to about 65mA. little more fine tuning and i can get it as low as 60mA draw. and it should be going at it's top speed or near it at the same moment you see the amp draw drop.
that is the sweet spot, once you have that tuned in, try putting the timing light to it, I bet you will see one pulse per magnet.
I have heard they are not always one pulse per magnet when they are tuned the way they want to run, so it's best to go for lowest current at highest RMP.
Play around with it a bit, I am leaving the pot on mine because different conditions might take different tuning, but once you get it tuned you do have the option to replace the pot with a fixed resistor of the same value your pot reads when your motor is tuned. that way you don't have to tune it overtime you want to test it.
congrats on the victory!
N8

Thankyou N8,

It is a great feeling and have a few parts incoming then can tune it. ( Have a few DDM but really want to do testing with panel ampmeter and DSO or CRO )
I have the circuit in now with 100 Ohm resistor and with pot tuned to 0V the rotor speed is great just finishing an hour test now (others have been 10 minutes).
I will keep up the posts as I improve and when I make the youtube clip for a fine-tuned sexy version

Regards
Zero

[cheese]

Hi everyone,
I'm not sure if this is a step in the right or wrong direction but for the first time ever, my circut is making a high pitch tone (self occilating?). I'm also getting 12 volt batteries. Is the self occilation a step in the right or wrong dirrection?

[blackchisel97]

Hi everyone,
I'm not sure if this is a step in the right or wrong direction but for the first time ever, my circut is making a high pitch tone (self occilating?). I'm also getting 12 volt batteries. Is the self occilation a step in the right or wrong dirrection?

Actually both First, it is a good sign that your circuit is working. Second, high pitch means too high base resistance and self oscillating. Reduce a bit and try to spin. Make sure your charging batt. is well connected.


Vtech

[Neight]

Actually both First, it is a good sign that your circuit is working. Second, high pitch means too high base resistance and self oscillating. Reduce a bit and try to spin. Make sure your charging batt. is well connected.


Vtech

glad I saw you posted this, I was going to say the exact same thing

that was my first problem, self oscillating coil, it will charge a battery that way, but not efficiently. like a poor man's solid state charger

for me, I had too much resistance in my power coil and too small magnets. not sure what your using for magnets, but check your pot to make sure it's working correctly and check your power coil. power coil should be between 4-6 ohms resistance.

good luck cheese!!
N8

[cheese]

I'm sorry blackchisel97, I'm really new at all of this what do you mean by base resistance? Do you mean the resistor coneccted to the base of the transistor?

[Neight]

I'm sorry blackchisel97, I'm really new at all of this what do you mean by base resistance? Do you mean the resistor coneccted to the base of the transistor?

He is talking about your 1k potentiometer + the 100ohm resistor with it. absolute lowest resistance you can have is 100 ohm, max depending on your potentiometer is 1100 ohms (1k pot + 100r).
if your resistance is too high your coil will self oscillate and you will get a high pitch squeal, like you have now.
try to adjust your pot down low and give it a spin, you might have to mess with the value of the pot before you get it to move, then you use the pot to tune the circuit to it's sweet spot.
we can get into tuning once you have your running, it's pretty simple to do.

depending on the magnets you are using, these things can be pretty tough to get running the first time.

hope all that helps and makes sense
N8

[cheese]

Yes, thank you very much. I'm getting the 12 volt batteries today and tommarow I'm getting different resistors and a different potentiometer. My current potentiometer is 5k and my resistor is 680 ohm. By the way the high pitch squeal I mentioned that was occuring was really high pitched and not very easy to hear, but in fact is audible when trying to listen closely.

[Neight]

Yes, thank you very much. I'm getting the 12 volt batteries today and tommarow I'm getting different resistors and a different potentiometer. My current potentiometer is 5k and my resistor is 680 ohm. By the way the high pitch squeal I mentioned that was occuring was really high pitched and not very easy to hear, but in fact is audible when trying to listen closely.

ok, you need to get a 100 ohm fixed resistor instead of the 680 ohm. 680 is the recommended starting resistance for the pot + the 100 ohm resistor. and it is pretty easy to go to high with a 5k pot, little over a 1/4 turn on the pot and it will start to self oscillate. use a 1k pot and a 100 ohm resistor and you should be close to making it work. the only other variable is your magnets.

12V batteries are much easier to use also. I tried to start with 9V batteries and it wouldn't run at first. now I have a better coil what will work with 9v, but it helps to have 12v to eliminate variables

sounds like you are getting close!! good luck and if you have any other questions i will try and help where i can

N8

[ZeropointEnergy]

Good luck

Yes, thank you very much. I'm getting the 12 volt batteries today and tommarow I'm getting different resistors and a different potentiometer. My current potentiometer is 5k and my resistor is 680 ohm. By the way the high pitch squeal I mentioned that was occuring was really high pitched and not very easy to hear, but in fact is audible when trying to listen closely.

Blackchisel and Neight gave you all the right information with the 100 Ohm resistor and 1k pot you will be up and running soon ( unless magnets the factor )
When I was first getting it to spin I would have 450 Ohm on the pot and started very easy while on 580 ( 680 total circuit ) it took move effort to start but one it did draw low current and got close to lower resistance speed.
My coil did have the high pitch squeal as you do when the circuit didnt work with 9V batteries and insufficent turns on coil but was audible, so keep trying and good luck it does sound like you are getting close buddy

Regards
Zero

[cheese]

Hello again,
The current progress is that my coil is pretty small, however I got the 12 volt batteries, the coil is occilating at such a low frequency that you can feel a magnet vibrate if you put it next to the coil when there is no potentiometer or resistor. I was under the impression that the circut was occilating because I didn't have enough resistance, do I need more instead of less?

Sincerely,
Cheese

[Neight]

Hello again,
The current progress is that my coil is pretty small, however I got the 12 volt batteries, the coil is occilating at such a low frequency that you can feel a magnet vibrate if you put it next to the coil when there is no potentiometer or resistor. I was under the impression that the circut was occilating because I didn't have enough resistance, do I need more instead of less?

Sincerely,
Cheese

your coil will self oscillate if your resistance is too high. self oscillating means that the coil is working itself and wont drive the rotor. On my motor, I have to keep the base resistance under 1100 ohms and it will work. too low resistance and my motor will be slow and have too high amp draw. my motor runs it's fastest at it's lowest amp draw. at top speed i have my pot turned all the way up and i am only drawing about 60-65mA. it is a balance between too high and too low. that is why you use a 1k pot to tune the circuit, so you can vary the resistance between 100 ohms and 1100 ohms. mine will run at any resistance between those two values, but works best at 1100 ohms (100r + 1k pot turned all the way up). I used a 5k pot for a little bit to experiment with it and if i went much higher than 1k on the pot it would start to self oscillate and make the noise you are getting.

I don't think it will work with no resistors in the circuit and you could blow your transistor that way. i could be wrong on this, but with my pot turned all the way down to 0r and only the 100 ohm resistor in place, my motor is barely spinning and i am sure if i go much lower than that, it wouldn't work at all.

also if your coil is too small, it wont work. you want about 150' of both the trigger wire and the power wire to make a big enough pulse to push away the magnets from the core. also you have to make sure you have your coil hooked to the circuit in the right direction or it wont work either. double check that your magnets are pointing north out from the center of your rotor. you can check this with a compass. if you wire your coil backwards, you wont get movement on your rotor. just a few thoughts to point you in the right direction

N8