Help/Ideas for Bedini test bed

[ZPDM]

First off I do not have an electronics background. Alright that out of the way I will give a little background and then mention what it is I would like help with. From my understanding, if you simplify things as much as possible, all that is really needed in the Bedini circiut is the electromagnet the two batteries wired up and a diode to direct the, whatever you want to call it, back emf, radiant energy, inductive spike, ringing etc. There is actually a good video by "the Daftman" school boy project (TheDaftman) - YouTube which he has called the "schoolboy project" demonstrating this while this goes along with the work that "Imhoptep" has done with automotive relays. Seeing as this is what is essentially needed why not look for ways to try and better quantify things and observe what adjusting different varaibles does? More specifically I would like to create a test bed to test various coil types and parameters while also being able to adjust voltage, watts and most importantly pulse rate.

Let me mention first how I don't want to do this. I don't want the magnetic wheel timer set-up. Yes you could measure rotations and determine pulses/time however 1) it would be a more complex machine and 2) that magnet flying past the iron core and electromganetic field at varying speeds, with the tangential movement and different possible magnet strengths likely does something. I did note skimming Bedini's patent that he mentions the magnet is not involved in energy production, though this might have been said for the sake of the patent and while certainly the majority of the production is coming from the electromagnet (hence solid state set-ups), the flying magnets are likely doing something and also creating a very complex variable. Did see a video of someone spinning a turned off Bedini and capturing inductive spikes on an oscilloscope so who knows maybe the magnets do contribute to energy production. Besides what does that Bedini cat know about this anyway? Has he ever done one single experiment in his entire life? Sheeez.

Alright, anyways I want it solidstate. Now I know the next reply would be, build a timing circiut with a 555 chip. Did I mention the part about not having an electronics background. I might be able to do this, I understand it involves a couple capacitors and potentiometers, but even if I were successful I would still have no way of quantifying how fast the pulses are occuring. Isn't there a pre-made package to do this? Yes with a variable DC power supply I could alter voltage and watts now I just need something to turn the darn thing on and off at defined rates and tell me how fast it is going. I wonder whether a function generator would do this, but I am getting in over my head there with wave forms and whatnot. Can a function generator do or mimic pulsed DC? That's probably the core of my question. And if it can't is there some sort of pre-packaged way to do pulsed DC and quantify the pulse rate? Any thoughts?

Once you had a set-up like this you could likely gather some good data. For instance on various electromagnet types (different windings, gauge, core type, size, wire material) look what it does at different voltages, amperage and pulse rates. I know there are textbook equations to predict some of this, then again they don't predict anything about charging with negative energy so it is likely worthwhile to try to gather some quantitative data. As it may be unclear the best way to measure the radiant energy produced, likely the benchmark for such a system would be to charge a capacitor of given specifications to a defined voltage and then measure how fast it took to accomplish this in various set-ups. That's it, any ideas/guidance much appreciated.

[kcarring]

Hey Z.

i could probably say a ton of stuff, and a majority of the forum (maybe you too) would say, Kyle.. shut up. I have been known to carry on and annoy people in the process.

I did however wanna help, cause your mindset is very close to what mine was not so very long ago.

Here's a thought. You observed the daftman, and u know what .. that is actually a very interesting test tool.. you are wise to have picked that up.

Why not build one? The school boy. instead of batteries though... buy yourself some brand new supercapacitors. About four of them. And that's it, begin testing. Like you say, keep it simple. Take the complexity of batteries out of it intially... and rotors..

Besides, if you make it out of beautiful wood... it could be a very neat table topper! I'd like to make one too, might just follow along on the project... then evolve from there. observe just the input, the coil, the event - over time. have a small discharge load of known LEDs. later you can incorporate a small lead acid battery. Do up a good coil though, and try make it such that you could exchange other coils in, later. research that. Make it so u can add core materials and take them out; exchange them for something else. A multimeter like a craftsman that showed frequency would be handy too. An inline analog ammeter adds to things.

Simple IS good.
Cheers

[ZPDM]

Kyle,

Thanks for the help. We are fifty percent or more on the same page. Imagine the "Schoolboy Project" but instead of the buzzing relay, something which told you how fast the relay is firing. Heck you might even be able to use a guitar tuner and work backwards from there. But to be precise you want something that delivers precise pulses at known measured intervals. From there, as per the end of the video, measure the time to fill a capacitor. The rest of the variables at least seem more easy to measure and alter.

So again before I waste money can a function generator do or mimic pulsed DC? If it can't is there some sort of pre-packaged way to do pulsed DC and quantify the pulse rate?

[citfta]

@ ZPDM

Since you obviously think you know more than those of us that have been doing this kind of thing for years why don't you try using the search feature of Google and find out what a function generator can do?

[ZPDM]

Cifta,

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. If in some reasonable way I have given offense I humbly apologize. The sarcasm regarding Bedini is patently obvious in light of reference to his previous patent. Elsewise, I consider you an "expert" of the sort that has hindered discovery of the truth for oh these long ages.

[ZPDM]

One more thing, I said repeatedly I have no electronics background and obviously I am a "newbie" on this forum. I guess that is your welcome wagon. I have "Googled" function generators. I wasn't certain from the AC power source and the variety of wave forms whether one could mimic or produce pulsed DC (why not just answer this?). I suppose I could speak with a manufacturer on this, I thought it worthwhile to bring it up here. You seem to disagree?

[citfta]

@ZPDM

Ok I'll try to explain why your first post ticked me off. In the first place you admit you don't understand anything about electronics. Then you proceed to explain what we should be doing to get a better understanding about coils and radiant energy. If you had done any research at all on this forum you would have found that a lot of us have done all the things you think we should be doing and a lot more than that. Then you go on to say John Bedini hasn't done any experiments! I don't always agree with John's conclusions or explanations but he has contributed more to this forum than a lot of us. He can sometimes be short with you and maybe not tell you all you want to know but he has done a lot to help explain some of what we are doing. By the way how many patents do you have?

As far as myself goes there are many people on this forum that I have tried to help. A lot of them were newbys like yourself but they didn't come on here and try to tell the rest of us how we should be doing our testing. They came here and actually asked questions about things they didn't understand. If you want to learn something then build the basic School Girl and when you can tune it and get the best charging from it then you might have learned enough to go on from there. Or build the 555 circuit and go solid state. By the time you have learned to build the 555 circuit you will have made a small start in learning electronics. If you are too lazy to learn basic electronics then just go away because you are wasting your time and the time of anyone trying to help you. If you want to get serious and learn about electronics there are many on this forum including myself that would be willing to help you.

Carroll

PS: Some function generators can put out pulsed DC but most do not.

[kcarring]

@Z

I forgot to say, on your output storage... you'll need some caps that will go up to high voltage. I meant the supercaps, as input. You can pulse DC with a PWM yes. And open a gate on FET. My experience personally has been, if you want to "force" the Bedini technology to work AS YOU DEMAND it too, your results will be less than favorable. I personally believe you are looking to find a frequency that which at least approximates a resonance pattern for the given battery. John has suggested certain configuration, for reasons. Meaning transistors and coil sizes, wire guages, cores, magnet spacing. Take your analogy with the guitar tuner; you want to "ring" the battery. Can you twit a dial and pulse DC to force it to ring when you say so? I don't believe so. We are trying charge it a new way instead of slamming it with current, or forcing it to charge, how we say it ought to.

Please allow me one moment to explain something that I feel will have validity in your quest.

When I first started into this I shared your exact frustrations, I just wanted things to work, damn it, hit the start button, give me something measurable, predictable. That's how our world operates, we want it now, on, full power, off, done. And so engineers have given us what we wanted. John Bedini and others offer us something a bit different, something a little closer to how nature actually operates in its infinite complexity of balance in impedences, resonant patterns/frequencies. And that's a bit of a hard curve/hump to get over, that one. It takes time. It's fairly unlikely that any free energy (let's call it "new energy" device instead, shall we? I hate that word) will be switching mode power supplied with Lo Med and Hi, and New Energy Mode. you'll find that nearly all devices in this realm operate not on linear input vs. linear output, rather pulsed currents, resonance frequencies, and high impedence-current restricting circuitry that is very confusing at first. 100 years ago, some very lucrative engineers simplified a lot of things for the general public and our usage of power became very predictable, but also very wasteful, and illogical (if compared to how researchers have found efficiency). And that's a key factor here.

As for the frequency, I'd just go with DMM that dispays. Given you won't be counting "every single cycle".

Even if you did know the frequency, the exact number of cycles, etc... The H-wave that is produced is very strangely (geometricly speaking, it's actual shape) and therefore very difficult to determine the actual power delivered in each cycle (as opposed to a pulse dc square wave). The area of the graph.The power, being the area of the graph, I mean. And the most confusing part is, even if you did somehow see "more power out, than in" - which I doubt you will, that isn't where the gain is, as I see it. And as others see it. And even, as JB describes it. But that is the confusing part, for sure... and truly where all the controversy, hype, confusion and BS that goes along with it, starts... but if you stick with it long enough... you might just see, like i did, in the end... it doesn't matter anyway - because there are enough benefits in this, to learn it, apply it, and use it - whether there is truly any "free energy" or not. It is a good circuit.

It might be best to just start the whole thing with rechargeable AA's, as to be able to keep it cheap and yet variable. Skip the capacitor plan altogether.

See what you get out compared to what it costs (energy wise) going in. If you like what you're doing, move on to lead acid and build an SSG. Follow the plans to a T. Do a full 5 conditioning cycles, then do 40 or 50 discharges and recharges. That's what I did. I found that despite I thought I knew what I was doing, it wasn't until half way through did I even have, what "they" told me I needed. And then, I started to see some benefits. Keep in mind what I deem as benefits though: slightly increased capacities, higher standing voltages, possibly quicker charge times, and seemingly zero wear and tear on the batteries. Free Energy? Personally... I don't believe so. Others do.

Though simple in principle, these experiments are not simple to do with perfection; see what the general result is, "for better or worse" sort of approach.

I have not seen one single proper calorimetry based scientific Bedini test done, anywhere, ever... it would take quite a bit of time for one thing... batteries, individuals batteries, cannot be relied upon to be consistent, one to the next... output on incandescent light is irrelevant and meaningless if pure science is the goal ... in some senses the entire test (personally I did 42 cycles , lead acid SSG)... is a bit like saying can HHO extend your fuel economy? Well, maybe, but... it won't be a simple matter to truly determine if your setup actually (without a single doubt) DOES.... but .... after so many fillups, if u are convinced its better for the motor, and your spending less at the fuel station weekly... go with it! It's very much like that, I personally think. Or, you can do 100 dynamo tests and take the averages. How much time and effort and money is it worth to you to know.


But, perhaps, you'll just see enough benefit, overall, to continue. Free Energy, or not... which is what I personally found I am willing to bet there has never been anyone, ever, on this planet, that has EVER done a proper test. But you see... many of these individuals are not looking for a calorimetry based test result, they are looking for small changes and modifications, or alternatives to producing better results, because they are already convinced of the benefit... so they aren't interested in people like you (and me not so long ago) *****ing about the lack of credibility in test methodology. In short, their time and money is better spent elsewhere.

But, ... having said that, just as importantly, there has been plenty of people find, in their minds, and from what they see.... more than ample representation and reason to continue... to them it was clear (the benefits). It' would've been a waste of their cash to pay out for equipment or lab time to do anything more, just to confirm what they already knew.

And then there's been some failed test/ors too. I've had both. I've been both. But I continue because I see enough benefit to do so. I never saw any gains whatsoever until my 23rd cycle because my magnets on my rotor were too tightly space, and my coil was poorly wound, too few winds. Long before that, my own renditions, dinky in size, were not representing the system well. To this day, I am still learning about how to to determine "when" you say stop. Nothing in this world is automatic. Once I actually (finally) had as absolutely close to a "stock" setup, I began to see gains. The entire learning curve, for me, was 18 months. And when I say gains I mean that I saw benefits, I'm not implying that I was witnessing free energy, I am saying that I saw a benefit to what I was witnessing before me, which I think is the key... and possibly the hard part to really swallow. Is it worth YOUR TIME. Does it show benefit TO YOU.

At some point you will get frustrated with it, publicize that, which is annoying to others trying to do their work, compare their work, you'll get asked to pipe down, like I have, and so you move on. Don't be a fool like I've been, *****ing bout this or that. Put in the time if you truly want to know. Don't make early conclusions and post them like I did. You'll only embarrass yourself, like I did. I may have put 18 months in, testing, well "This Bedini cat" has put no less than 20X that amount in, and whether or not I like his business ethics; here is not the place to knock him. Only recently have I changed my attitude, and public demeanor on these issues. Make your own mind up, for yourself, keep your posts clean... Keep on testing on your own, comparing, and finding benefits where you can, be it in this, or other methods.


Life's like that, live and learn. And for me the hardest part is listening.

[ZPDM]

@Cifta

I did build the Bedini SSG. Worked great, but thanks for the offer of help. Also built it with a variant timing circuit that I found in a hobby magazine for detecting the magnetic field, that worked as well and also powered a magnetic pendulum. I am proposing a methodology for "tuning" or more precisely evaluating the efficiency of various Bedini solid state set-ups. I guess that "ticks you off". The variable most often left out in evaluating such systems is pulse rate and it is one of the most important as nothing happens without it. While I don't have an electronics background I do have two undergraduate degrees one graduate and one post graduate degree, I am not entirely unfamilar with science.

While it is far outside my area of expertise, and really most others as well, I begin to suspect John Bedini may be one our greatest living experimental scientists. Regarding the humor related to John, when he was the one who invented the device, released it to the public, its patented by him, its named after him and he has spent decades and much of his career as an experimental bench scientist I would think someone, as you tell me, as knowledgable as yourself might see the irony in asking what he knows about this device and if he has ever done an experiment!

The joke was made because I felt a bit awkward that Mr Bedini in his patent mentions that the power production is not coming from the magnet. This is essentially true I believe as we obviously have solid state Bedini devices. Moreover, anyone who claims to be producing energy from magnets is not likely to obtain a patent. That said if one has a permanent magnet passing over a coil with an iron core there will be an induced current in the wire coil. This induced current will in turn produce an induced magnetic field. That is high school science, right Carroll? That induced magnetic field will itself collapse once the magnet leaves leading to an inductive spike. Am I in error here? As I mentioned, though I am too "lazy" to dig it out at the moment, there is a video of someone documenting this by turning a non-powered Bedini set-up with a rotary drill and showing induced inductive spikes on an oscilloscope. The magnitude and properties of this induced field will be influenced by the strength of the magnet, the velocity of the magnet, the diameter of the rotor and the size of the air gap. Do you see now why I am proposing a solid state system as a test bed?

I fear it may be intellectually lazy of me to be engaged in discussion with someone who is concerned primarily with a character assessment and not addressing the merits or demerits of a proposed experiment, but wanted to give a little more insight into my thinking. I genuinely appreciate the guidance that some wave form generators may be able to do pulsed DC, from my background I lack specialized knowledge in this area and appreciate open scientific collaboration. Sorry if the joke didn't go over, I tend to find that some engineer types lack the "irony gene" lol. Hopefully reasonable people and Mr Bedini himself will not take offense.

Paul

[ZPDM]

@kcarring,

Thank you for your enthusiastic and lengthy reply. We are not really on the same page anymore and I'll explain again what I am doing, which is really a bit simpler than some of what you talk about and sort of "spill the beans" on what I am really curious about. But before that I would say I am not comfortable here on this forum and doubt I will be an active participant, maybe, but I really doubt it.

One thing that really is I guess sickening is the right word is what happened to "TheDaftman". You know he really did a great job, what he did, which I encourage people to check out is publish Bedini and related circuits as color coded diagrams which you could then print out, glue to a piece of wood and attach the neccessary parts. He made it "paint by numbers" as it were. Well Daftman never played up the free energy part, most of the time he downplayed or denied it. In any event he felt his findings interesting enough to start a discussion board on energy experimentation a year or two ago.

His last post from over the Holidays details how in his word all his businesses and workshops were "fire attacked" destroying everything while he lost a very good friend (his right arm as he called him) in the fires. Strange coincidence, and to his credit (I hope and pray) he is now firmly commited to discussing alternative energy sources. They'll get thiers huh, if they don't wise up, make take a hundred years, but foul play like that, if that is what it was, doesn't go unpunished.

Anyways, sorry for the digression. I am talking about something much simpler than you. Bedini talks about difficulties with properly measuring radiant energy, while the bottom line is usable energy. The capacitors are simply the measuring tool for radiant energy, not the power source. A pulsed DC source with variable voltage and wattage is the power source. ( as an utterly irrelevant aside, did you see that recent video of John's where he hooks up an iron wire air core to a Bedini device and shows that the magnetic poles are reversed?!! I doubt anyone has ever seen or documented that, that itself is a huge finding and it sounded like John also didn't have a good idea for what was going on).

You know what I am most interested in is looking at different core materials. How does a core made from nails compare with a soft iron core? How does an iron core compare with silicon steel? How does silicon steel compare with Mu metal and similar compounds? I am not sure if I have terminology right from memory, perhaps Carroll can help, but from what I recall Mu metal has both a very good hysteresis and a magnetic permeativity like an order of magnitude greater than silicon steel. Wow. That is what you want right? All those little soldiers lined up to produce your magnetic field. While I have my curiosity, (and if I am right here) I suppose the last thing I would want is for someone like Bedini to comment on this. He has done likely more than anyone to bring this curious new science into discussion, and if he is not lying or exagerrating, which I don't believe he is, has suffered more than anyone should for it. Still, if memory serves, I think one area where Mu metal does find application is in some high end audio applications.

That's it. Scary how powerful this technology might be if it is genuine, maybe it is for the best if it is not widely known. Strange place to post and suspect I won't be back as I look for a good variable pulsed DC source.

[kcarring]

as I look for a good variable pulsed DC source.

Try a PWM designed for HHO. Depending on your needs, they can be very cheap. MAXXtronics makes a nice (up to) 35A mosfet based one. ZeroFossilFuel makes a custom unit that goes higher. Cap your output with voltage rated to whatever spikes you might think will hit it, others may have better ideas, on protection.

[citfta]

@ZPDM,

I apologize for misunderstanding your joke and underestimating your experience with Bedini circuits. It is hard sometimes to understand where a person is coming from by their first post. You are correct that understanding how a cap charges from a spike is an area that needs to be understood if someone is interested in harnessing radiant energy. But your really do need to take the time to learn as much as you can about electronics to understand and recognize the difference between normal circuit operation and some of the weird things that happen when working with radiant energy. Over and over on this forum I see people posting about some new thing they think they have discovered and it is just a normal circuit that has been known for years.

The PWM idea from Kcarring is a good one and an easy way to get the kind of pulses that you want. The only problem with it is they are usually fixed frequency and only vary the pulse width. The 555 circuit is still by far the cheapest and easiest way to get a variable frequency DC pulse and you can also vary the pulse width. If you start testing your idea you will discover that the width of the pulse will also make a big difference in what you get from the coil. My offer to help with the electronics still stands.

Again my sincere apologies for totally misunderstanding your first post.

Carroll

[ZPDM]

@kcarring
Thx for the lead, will look into it. Re the guitar tuner, I was just getting at that you could put a tuner next to a humming relay and determine what note it was playing and from there determine the Hertz and so pulses/second. Not a good experimental set-up though. Also should have said magnetic permeability not permeativity ;-)

[ZPDM]

@citfta

Think nothing of it. Probably not the best idea to have one's first post on a new forum about a Bedini device include a joke at Bedini's expense. I may lack a social gene or two.

As an outsider to those educated and trained in electromagnetics I have technical deficiencies but may possibly be able to more easily consider the "big picture". While understanding how a cap recharges from a radiant spike is interesting I am primarily concerned with a measurement system of the useful energy produced. I think a capacitor is more standardizable and reproducable then a given type of battery.

The Bedini SSG set-up I had was not over-unity. It also ran off a nine volt "Radioshack" battery. It charged batteries when hooked up wrong. I worked at a gas station through High School and so know how to jump start a battery, there is no reason whatsoever that a battery hooked up like that should charge. I also understand that systems with greater input and larger coils would theoretically be more likely to "approach" over-unity.

Again I am concerned with varying in a quantifiable way the pulse rate. Do things behave the same at 1 pulse per second versus a thousand, versus ten or one hundred thousand? While a bit silly and very basic research even for this topic, Bedini and I think Tesla himself spoke of the radiant energy as behaving like a gas, is there a minumum pulse duration required for the magnetic field to form? Given the different properties of different core types and different coil windings coupled with different power inputs if by some Bedini/Tesla chance one got a COP of even 1.01 of usable energy out and if the system behaves the same at one pulse per second as at 100,000, well that is 5 orders of magnitude and likely more to go with. That could be some frightening power density. Possibly all nonsense, but we need to look at the pulse rate. Come on that is the whole darn thing, pulsing the coil. There has to be a way of concretely varying the pulse rate and in a quantifiable manner.

If I didn't tick you off before I probably have now ;-) While I appreciate and will look into kcarrings PWM idea I think your idea about a function generator is likely better. I think a square wave with only positive voltage is the same as the pulsed DC generated from say a 555 timer circuit, though I am way outside my element here. It's not like buying a new car, but if I can have a bit more assurance I may start putting stuff in a spread sheet, may even start with a ten wind air coil and narrow gauge wire before moving on to who knows what.

[citfta]

Hi ZPDM,

No you haven't ticked me off at all by asking technical questions. In fact I can answer some of what you want to know and suggest some more ideas for you to pursue. When you apply voltage to a coil current starts to flow which in turn creates a magnetic field which opposes the flow of current. This is called inductance. And this is the reason current always lags voltage when power is applied to a coil. If we make our pulses very short then we may turn off the power before the maximum current has been reached and therefore before the full strength magnetic field has been produced. This is more a matter of pulse width rather than the frequency of the applied pulses. You are correct that for the best effect we need square wave pulses so the on and off times are very quick. If we drive the coil with a pulse that just causes the coil to reach saturation then we will get the most return on the spike for the amount of power we have put into the coil. If we drive the coil with a pulse that causes the coil to be saturated for any longer than necessary then we are wasting power and heating the coil. This is the beauty of the SSG. It is self regulating so that as soon as the coil reaches saturation if it is tuned properly then the pulse is turned off and the spike collected. The pot in the circuit of the SSG allows us to find that proper tuning spot.

Do you have any test equipment like a scope or a frequency counter? If you use the 555 circuit you will need some way to measure the frequency of your pulses. You will also need some way to measure the pulse width. The best tool for that is a scope. The scope will also allow you to see when you have reached saturation of the coil with you pulse. The scope will also allow you to measure the frequency of your pulses. For this type of research and testing a scope is the most important tool you can have. And you need one with at least 100 mhz frequency response. I got a real nice one to replace my old one at a hamfest. I only paid $35 for it. This is where ham radio guys get together and swap and sell their old equipment and sometimes new equipment. Look on the internet for a hamfest in your area.

Another option is to use the Picaxe chip to generate your pulses. You can program the pulses for the width you want and also for the time between pulses which you can calculate to give you the frequency you want. This way you don't have to have a scope for measuring the pulses and frequency. You will have to guess at how much you are saturating the coil by the amount of charge you are getting back into your cap. The software for programming the Picaxe is free and can be downloaded and studied before you decide you want to spend the money to go that way. The programming is actually pretty easy and the starter kits are reasonably priced. This is the best way to get really precise control of your pulses. The Picaxe 18x is the one used by a lot of us on this forum. You can go to robotshop.com and look at what they have.

I hope I haven't overloaded you with too much info at one time. These were just some thoughts I had that I hoped might help with what you are wanting to do.

Carroll