Help/Ideas for Bedini test bed

[kcarring]

@Z All of my PWM's vary both the pulse width, and the frequency. Having said that, the range is limited to design, knowing what frequency range you wish to work in, really helps. You can make them yourself, to more custom specs, of course. The 555 has it's limits though, and other methods (as discussed) are possible.

This is very close to what I use on a 12V HHO unit, both frequency and pulse width are controllable.

MXA067 Heavy Duty 30 AM PWM DC Control

[citfta]

@ Z

And here is another idea in addition to the one kcarring posted. The following function generator can be controlled by your PC through the USB port so you can very accurately set up the pulse width and frequency. It is good up to 2 mhz so it should do all you want it to. It does do square or rectangular waves.

Velleman, Inc.

Carroll

[ZPDM]

@ KC and Carroll,

You both have got me thinking on this a lot and I think a plan is forming. It might be approached in three stages.

Stage 1
* Get a variable power supply, I believe that solves the issue of controlling the volts and watts as opposed to using a 12 volt battery source. Repeat "Daftman School boy/Imhotep Relay" project and use an oscilloscope to measure the pulse rate and look at the wave form. Hadn't thought of using an oscilloscope to quantitate this but that of course would be how you would want to do it. May even be a little better than my "guitar tuner" idea /*that is another joke*/ So even at this stage you would be quantifying some things better and could do a little more controlled experimentation and if that is far as I get and learn a little about using a scope that would certainly not be a complete waste of time. Am thinking of going with the DSO Nano scope as I don't need much and it is inexpensive.

Stage 2
I really don't want to delve into the 555 chip and complex circuit building any more than neccessary as it might be a source of frustration and I am not going to make up for a lack of a degree or background in a few days. However, to get some more flexibility nonetheless, my trusty Radioshack Basic Electronics Workbook has a page on "Build a simple two transistor oscillator". That sounds a little more my speed and it should provide an ajustable pulse rate that could be coupled to the Bedini set-up. As an aside Forest Mims who wrote the accompanying books for the Radioshack Getting Started in Electronics hobby kit did a great job and it is highly recommended to anyone coming in as a neophyte. Not sure I would have ever gotten the SSG running without this reference and tool kit.

Stage 3
Dialing it in with more precision and flexibility. I see now how a pulse width modulator could solve this, especially the one I was directed to. I am still tending away from it for two reasons 1) it is a bit of overkill in terms of the power it can handle and 2) it can only pulse up to I think about 3 KHz. This leaves the function generator idea. The function generator is very flexible and can generate very fast pulses but of course the power from the USB will be very small. So it needs to be coupled to the power source in some way. Now I am genuninely not trying to be a wiseguy here I don't know if everyone has done this for years or if there are at least 15 reasons not to do it 3 of which might involve getting hurt, but on the surface it looks like you could just take the output of the function generator use it to signal a transistor, as the induced electric field does in the SSG, and the transistor switches the source power. If that is doable and I can't see why it wouldn't be then you have a pulse rate that you can dial in, per the limits of the transistor, from a pulse/second to say 100KHz. And you can look at the behavior over different wave forms. The Vellman PC based FG does look like a good way to go, they also have a handheld one that is a bit cheaper though you can't change the duty cycle but it also might work.

Of course even once you had this, you would still have all the variables with the coil and the core and how best to measure what it is you are getting out but you would have a dialed in solution for volts, amps and pulse rate.

Figure $100 for the nano scope, $200 for the function generator, a bit less than a $100 for the variable DC power supply. So before considering coils, charge batteries or capacitors you're at about $400 so maybe 5-6 hundred to start experimenting. As I said not like a new car, still if I am way off base or blatently in error here wouldn't mind hearing about it before I start buying stuff. And if I get to phase III might take up that offer of electronics help as I would not want to fry a laptop and/or function generator. Not sure when I'll get to all this may not even be till the Spring, though hopefully sooner, but after the discussion this is what I've come up with.

Paul

[minoly]

@ KC and Carroll,

You both have got me thinking on this a lot and I think a plan is forming. It might be approached in three stages.

Stage 1
* Get a variable power supply, I believe that solves the issue of controlling the volts and watts as opposed to using a 12 volt battery source. Repeat "Daftman School boy/Imhotep Relay" project and use an oscilloscope to measure the pulse rate and look at the wave form. Hadn't thought of using an oscilloscope to quantitate this but that of course would be how you would want to do it. May even be a little better than my "guitar tuner" idea /*that is another joke*/ So even at this stage you would be quantifying some things better and could do a little more controlled experimentation and if that is far as I get and learn a little about using a scope that would certainly not be a complete waste of time. Am thinking of going with the DSO Nano scope as I don't need much and it is inexpensive.

Stage 2
I really don't want to delve into the 555 chip and complex circuit building any more than neccessary as it might be a source of frustration and I am not going to make up for a lack of a degree or background in a few days. However, to get some more flexibility nonetheless, my trusty Radioshack Basic Electronics Workbook has a page on "Build a simple two transistor oscillator". That sounds a little more my speed and it should provide an ajustable pulse rate that could be coupled to the Bedini set-up. As an aside Forest Mims who wrote the accompanying books for the Radioshack Getting Started in Electronics hobby kit did a great job and it is highly recommended to anyone coming in as a neophyte. Not sure I would have ever gotten the SSG running without this reference and tool kit.

Stage 3
Dialing it in with more precision and flexibility. I see now how a pulse width modulator could solve this, especially the one I was directed to. I am still tending away from it for two reasons 1) it is a bit of overkill in terms of the power it can handle and 2) it can only pulse up to I think about 3 KHz. This leaves the function generator idea. The function generator is very flexible and can generate very fast pulses but of course the power from the USB will be very small. So it needs to be coupled to the power source in some way. Now I am genuninely not trying to be a wiseguy here I don't know if everyone has done this for years or if there are at least 15 reasons not to do it 3 of which might involve getting hurt, but on the surface it looks like you could just take the output of the function generator use it to signal a transistor, as the induced electric field does in the SSG, and the transistor switches the source power. If that is doable and I can't see why it wouldn't be then you have a pulse rate that you can dial in, per the limits of the transistor, from a pulse/second to say 100KHz. And you can look at the behavior over different wave forms. The Vellman PC based FG does look like a good way to go, they also have a handheld one that is a bit cheaper though you can't change the duty cycle but it also might work.

Of course even once you had this, you would still have all the variables with the coil and the core and how best to measure what it is you are getting out but you would have a dialed in solution for volts, amps and pulse rate.

Figure $100 for the nano scope, $200 for the function generator, a bit less than a $100 for the variable DC power supply. So before considering coils, charge batteries or capacitors you're at about $400 so maybe 5-6 hundred to start experimenting. As I said not like a new car, still if I am way off base or blatently in error here wouldn't mind hearing about it before I start buying stuff. And if I get to phase III might take up that offer of electronics help as I would not want to fry a laptop and/or function generator. Not sure when I'll get to all this may not even be till the Spring, though hopefully sooner, but after the discussion this is what I've come up with.

Paul

This guy has a few insights to think about as well
min2oly's Channel - YouTube
there is more than one way to climb a mountain - and there are other ways to vary the pulse, pulse width, pulse strength, freq.... etc..... having little "electronic" background could work to your advantage. if I read correctly it sounds as though you are musically inclined, use this to your advantage.

here is an alternate core material to think about:
Paramagnetic Core - YouTube

[kcarring]

@Z
You can't go wrong with those devices because they will aid you in 1000's of electronics projects.

@minoly
As much of a naysayer as I am at times, I do like your videos - and whether or not I agree with your views on what is truly happening, you've delivered great impromptu thought provocation. Kudos to you.

[FRC]

Zpdm

I am probably wrong about what you are looking for, but have you checked out the advanced SSG kit from R-charge ? It has solid state capability that is very adjustable. The circuit is kind of complex to assemble. If you saw the instruction video for it and what it it can do, you may find that it does have
potential for what you are after.

George

[ZPDM]

@ Minoly,

Two thumbs up, one for each video. I hear what you are saying in video one, hard to imagine of course but I hear you and reasonable people speaking about what may be difficult to follow but certainly not incoherent or gibberish is why I am looking to experimentally inquire a little more in this area.

Re video Two, Paramagnetic material you say? Wow, just wow! Maybe I was once told of something like that but even if so it certainly never would have crossed my mind. Without really knowing what I am talking about I would have to guess that it is having an effect and perhaps not negligable on Lenz's law forces.

Keep up the great work. You can learn a little about me if interested at my blog "The Skeptics Health Journal Club" I realize "skeptic" can be a rather emotive word so I'll just say I am usually talking about those areas where I am skeptical of the more established or predominant position. While I suppose the definition can fit either way, to my thinking if one is skeptical of what the majority or most everyone else also says is not right, you really aren't much a skeptic are you? More an orthodox or conventional doctronaire if you ask me, or sometimes just a shill . Thx for the encouragement will probably order that nano scope this week-end.

[ZPDM]

@KC,

Great to hear and looking forward to what I may be able to learn over the next few weeks.

[ZPDM]

@ George,

Thanks for the tip and will keep it in mind. It was Rick's three pole kit that I first got to run, then a couple homebrew, compact disk and wooden rotor variants. I had actually been 90% of the way there with the CD version but wasn't until I got the kit that I finally got things running.

Having completed this "rite of passage" as it were I now feel I can experiment a little more and am just looking for the most flexible and quantifiable way to do this. I am a bit more confident now that the path I outlined is a reasonable one, but considering my previous experience will certainly keep that kit in mind.

[citfta]

@ZPDM

You asked a question in one of your posts about taking the output from the FG and applying it to a power transistor to give you a higher output power. I don't think anyone ever answered that for you. Yes you can do that. You just have to be careful you don't drive the transistor too hard or overload the output of the FG. If you want to really get into quick on and off times then you will need to do some research about using FET's and FET driver chips. But the level you are looking for now can be done just by connecting the output of the FG through a resistor to the base of the power transistor just like in the SSG as you asked. If you want when you are ready I can draw you up a simple circuit for that.

Carroll

[ZPDM]

Hi Carrol,

Thanks. Got the phase I part out of the way using a reed switch made from a wooden coffee stirer and a couple metal striups from a razor blade, kind of fun. I am working now with the two transistor oscillator, this is an interesting circuit. You charge a capacitor hooked to the base of a transistor through a potentiometer. When the cap reaches the base threshold value it discharges turning on the transistor. This transistor is hooked to the base of a second transistor which when turned on by the first allows power to flow from the main power source. Once the cap has discharged the transistors turn off starting the process over again. Radioshack has the put the entire basic electronics workbook online here http://www.radioshack.com/graphics/u...7_P1_PM_EN.pdf so if you go to page 56 you can see the circuit diagram.

I want to spend some time with this circuit as it should help me understand resistors, capactitors and transistors better. I don't fully understand this circuit, for instance what is purpose of the second transistor? However, I have it merrily producing variable rate pulses to the speaker and next will be to see how it does pulsing an electromagnet. The main drawback I can think of is that you can't vary the duty cycle which may prove an issue. If it works it would be a very simple, if somewhat less flexible than the 555 approach, solid state Bedini set-up.

After this as I said I want to see about hooking up a function generator in place of the capacitor in this or a similar circuit. From there start looking at capacitors and radiant energy. The whole area is so strange I am not certain anyone can give a good direct measure of the energy in the radiant spike and/or how it behaves. So if we restrict oursleves to trying to measure the usable energy produced I think for a number of reasons looking at it hitting a capacitor is probably a good place to start.

I'll throw one last thing at you and perhaps make a fool of myself here but what the hey. I was thinking about battery swoppers and looking at circuits for this and quite honestly couldn't make heads or tails of them. I'll tell you what I've conceptualized for doing this though I can't say I have tried to draw my first circuit diagram yet just trying to see if the idea has any merit.
So you have your input (run) battery which delivers power to the battery to be charged (charging) battery.
1) Hook two batteries up as run batteries and also as charge batteries (bear with me I'll explain)
2) You now need a way to direct current flow so one is acting as run and one as charge exclusively and at different times
3) You need two conditions to accomplish this, a) when a battery is depleted past a threshold it shuts off and b) a battery that is being charged does not attempt to discharge and thus turn into a run battery
4) The first condition I think can be accomplished with a Zener diode. Say a Zener diode with a threshold value of 11V. Above the threshold value the battery will deliver 11V as a run battery, below 11V it shuts off.
5) Now if the shutoff battery were to become the charge battery it would quickly go above 11 V and start putting out current as though it were a charge battery. To solve this use a logic chip to perform an AND operation.
So let's say Battery 1 has now shut off by passing below the Zener threshold before it can turn back on again, Battery 2 has to shut off by passing below the Zener threshold. A logic chip should be able to accomplish, the statement would be
A current is passed by battery 1 if a) a current is flowing from battery one (voltage above 11V threshold) AND b) a current is not flowing from battery 2
Two Zener diodes and two AND logic chips should allow the batteries to switch back and forth depending on voltage and discharging state.
6) The last part of this is that the radiant spike doesn't know to which battery it should go. However the same logic from point 5 would allow another logic chip to direct the charge current to either battery 1 or 2 appropriately.

From my very limited knowldege base the main problem I see with this is that you would probably fry the logic chips that are trying to direct the radiant spike. Still, if it worked you have a battery swopper from 2 Zener diodes and 4 logic gates and one that could switch very rapidly. I am quite a ways off from trying something like this but something to think about anyways.

[citfta]

Hi ZPDM,

I think your idea about a battery swapper circuit has some merit. You can't use logic chips directly to direct the pulses where you want them to go. You will fry the chip as you thought. Most logic chips only handle very low current and usually only operate on 5 volts. You can use the logic chips to control other things though. You could use the output of the logic chips to control some mosfets or high voltage transistors. If you have some free time for study you might want to look at the Tesla Switch thread on this forum. Bits and Bytes has done some work using microprocessors to monitor voltage and swap batteries around. He is a very sharp guy and I have learned a lot from him and Matt Jones and some of the other regulars on that thread. That thread gets active for a while and then rests for a while and then takes off again as we get new ideas to try. It is a very long thread but worth the time to at least skim over and try to get the high points.

Carroll

[ZPDM]

Cifta,

That is very good to hear concerning the battery swapper idea. I have had a chance to poke around 1-5% of this site now and with a bit of sifting it really has a bit of of university feel to it with some of the professors of this field frequently chiming in, though not in a pedantic or dictatorial manner, it is really quite an incredible place. I now want to not post for awhile but for a different reason, that being that I am starting to feel uncomfortable until I actually I have some experimental data to present, even if it is "hey I can't figure out how an oscilloscope works"

I have glanced at the Tesla switch thread but you know for the moment it is one weird thing at a time and as I think I've expressed, with that one weird thing what variables can we control. After setting up the test bed as I described and before looking at different coils/cores I think you mentioned looking directly at the capacitor. When I get to that point that really does seem the first place to start. Does a particular cap follow the theoretical, I may be off on the terminology but I'm sure you now what I mean, RC curve when charged radiantly. It sounds silly but there sure is some strange stuff being reported. I am hoping to not bump into too much further weirdness at the moment, I hear there is something about resonant frequencies (would an FG sweep function be of any value here?) and self oscillation but if one simply extrapolates to what might be conventionally possible if the tales of overunity are true one has enough variables to pursue.

As I said I'll shut up, I hope, very soon, but throw one more thing at you If you can switch between charge and run battery quickly why are people using these large amp hour batteries? I certainly haven't yet replicated this overunity nonsense, but if it is valid, what are you worried about? the ether is going to run out? No, if you can gather as much as you need, the only questions become, 1) how fast can you charge and 2) how fast can you discharge. Capacitors (entirely aside from looking at them as a measuring tool for how much useful energy is produced by a radiant spike) can charge and dump their charge an order or two of magnitude faster than batteries, i.e while their capacity is lower they have an energy density that is much higher. With a fast pulse rate and good core/coil you might be able to charge at the limit that the capacitor can accept or more.

That's it will shut up for now. If I manage to get that far I would guess the first thing I might be able to present data on from the test bed would be do capacitors behave at all as theory predicts when charged through a radiant spike.

[citfta]

Hi again,

To give you an answer on the battery swapping I'll tell you what John Bedini has said. The OU if any comes from the batteries reaction to the kind of charging it is getting. He has said with radiant charging you have to give the batteries a rest period to allow them to charge on their own after you have been charging them on the SSG or other radiant charging method. I have seen for myself that they will continue to charge after taking them off the charge side if you have the pulses and current level just right when charging. I have seen the charge rise for as long as a couple of hours after I have stopped charging them. The closest I have come to OU was I time I had the Tesla Switch circuit tuned just right with the right amount of pause between pulses and just the right load etc. That set up ran some Leds for over a week and the batteries never lost any charge. They didn't gain any but they ran the switching circuit and the Leds all that time and the voltage at the end of the run was exactly the same as at the beginning.

Another thing to remember is that batteries seem to become conditioned to radiant charging. The more cycles of charge and discharge you put them through the more they seem to respond to the radiant charging. Caps also appear to exhibit this same behavior. So the answer to one of your questions is that caps do respond differently to radiant charging than to conventional charging. And they also will continue to charge after being disconnected from the charging circuit. You can discharge them and they will recharge to some extent on their own. Not back to the full charge but at least to several volts in some cases.

One more thing to remember about the batteries is that the little gel cell 7ah batteries that you see a lot of people using on Utube do not respond the same as regular flooded cell batteries. That is one reason you see a lot of us using the small lawn and garden tractor type batteries. They just respond a lot better to being radiantly charged.

Later,
Carroll

[ZPDM]

@Caroll, KCarring et al,

Thanks for the input and advice. Thought I would give an update and ask a few questions. I succeded with stages 1, 2 and three. The signal generator I bought is a hand held one that does not allow for pulse width modulation, which on the one hand is not good on the other there has been so much non-linearity and general bizareness I am fine with ignoring that realm for the moment.

I'll give one more quick aside as to why I wanted to avoid the pulse motor end of things before continuing. When I built my little magnetic pendulum I first used a weak magnet and saw a small oscillation. I replaced this with a heavier and stronger magnet and saw, with no change in power input to the electromagnet, a far larger displacement of the now heavier pendulum. Without dwelling on this I would just say if someone wishes to expound on how that fits into the textbook explanation of things I'm all ears, at least for a brief while.

Back to my experiments, and I suppose I could make a video demonstrating this if worthwhile. First I reduced things to the bare bones. A power source, a coil, a capacitor, a diode. I would pulse the coil and behold there was the power ending up in the cap. Even tried removing the backwards diode - which didn't work, and not to go overboard but seeing I got off on the wrong foot with Carrol, I believe this backwards diode (in the spirit of a Zener diode) should be hence forth referred to as a Bedini diode. Incidently, is there any fundamental difference between a diode and a SCR in these type of applications?

Even at the bare bones a coil and cap makes an LC circuit which could lead to complex resonant behavior, regardless of the complexity of the radiant spike. Okay, so I didn't break down and buy an oscilloscope but my MacGyver approach actually has some advantages over the scope. Once you do a single pulse into the cap, you can calculate the energy stored in the cap from that spike. Joules = 1/2CV[2] Joules are also equal to watts/sec so you can compare input and output.

Now I don't know if I saw any overuninty (calculated 30-70%) in my set-ups but I saw a lot of strangeness. Aside from batteries and capacitors being charged backwards, they would also charge a small amount for a time after pulsing had stopped and there is a spatial charging as well. At one point I measured four AAA batteries under 1.2 volts charged one to over 1.5 volts and the others had gone to over 1.5 volts as well, may be a problem with the multimeter which would also be strange.

Measuring input and output I saw no overunity, however, and this is something I might even like to start a new thread on, what affects the radiant? If you look at power going into a cap from one spike, at 1 KHz it should be 3-4x overunity. This did not happen in my set-up. The magnetic field weakens, the spikes are more frequent but are likely less powerful. At times adding an iron core (which would increase the magnetic field by orders of magnitude by the Way, if I understand correctly), will somewhat increase the charging at other pulse rates will decrease the charging.

I have no idea how to predict how any core/winding will behave. The inductive spike is not simply the back EMF, as I have a single wire coil without a transformer that charges a cap to 100V from a 2 volt input. It is related to but not the direct result of the collapsing magnetic field as the introduction of an iron core to an air coil may slightly increase or decrease the spike while increasing the magnetic field strength by orders of magnitude.

My best model at this point is as follows. The happy, etheral unicorn gracefully leaps from the collapsing magnetic field. He would like to trot back to the high impendance coil but sees the diode and so gallops into a capacitor or battery. Sorry, though I think that sums up the state of knowledge for a lot of us. Besides, I dislike the antropomorphising you see a lot of these days, " Our angry Sun! ... filled with fury and rage it violently hurls terror and mayhem our way" ... Gee, I just thought it was a nice day for the beach.

Alright, I'll try and shut up, would just ask if anyone's talking how do you engineer the circuit to have a powerful radiant spike which can occur at a fast pulse rate. How do you engineer the coil and pulse rate for the radiant spike??? My best guess at this point is that there is a non-linear relationship between inductance/impendence and resonance though I had hoped to be able at this point to make some broad generalizations as to how things might behave, this might be worth it's own thread. I understand Tesla used very high voltage and a magnet to blow out the ionized spark gap to allow very high pulse rates. I am a physician, I don't think it would be healthy to try and set up in my spare time an extremely high voltage spark gap system. Lastly, though again it is possibly a post in itself, Bedini has noted that the strange happenings at sharp DC transients at extremely high voltage can be replicated at lower voltages. If the findings have validity and the trend can be extrapolated it is curious (along with the computer analogy) to observe the use of pulsed DC in the nervous systems of "higher" life forms Whew that's it.