Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Molecular distances and corresponding frequencies

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by Michael John Nunnerley View Post
    Cycle keep at it, your going in the right direction

    Your the first person I have seen to take the bull by the horns and look at what can be done with electro magnetic waves.

    "AC" electro magnetic external field
    High voltage nano second pulsed electrodes

    regards

    Mike
    Hi, Mike. Good to hear I'm not just off babbling in the wilderness, at least. I have almost no knowledge of this stuff, I'm just going off what I read and what seems to make sense, so I'm going to need a lot of help to get something like this realized.

    I'll definitely be building a water splitter... it's on the 'to-do' list, so if I can work on it concurrently with waiting for my electronics guy to build my other projects and waiting for the engine parts to get back from fabrication, that'd be great. Of course, it'll all be completely open source... I have no delusions of getting rich off something like this... the likelihood of ending up dead or in prison is much greater, and I'd much rather avoid that.

    As regards your "High voltage nano second pulsed electrodes" comment... that sounds like corona discharge. I'm going to be having one built for an ignition system on a small engine, so I've done lots of research on it.

    But in the case of the water splitter, one way to perfectly time the pulsing of the magnetic field and the pulsing of DC voltage on the biasing plates is to add another coil on "The Gizmo". I'll call it the Biasing Coil.

    You'll note in the top-view graphic (attached in .PNG and .PDF format) that opposite the water tank is a long magnetic flux path that connects the two permanent magnet banks when the coils are energized... but when they deenergize, the magnetic flux collapses as it goes through the shorter 'short circuit' paths. Adding a coil to that connecting flux path, putting the voltage through a voltage multiplier and full-wave rectifier and connecting that to the biasing plates in the water tank should provide the voltage needed, pulsed at twice the frequency that the magnetic flux is being pulsed at (one pulse when the magnetic field builds, one when it collapses). Thus we get the voltage on the biasing plates just when we need it (prior to the water being ripped apart by the resonating magnetic field) to stretch the O-H bonds to their limits, and (just after the magnetic field has collapsed) to help electrostatically separate the H and O so they can't recombine as easily.

    If we were running at 15.812 MHz, that'd give us a pulse time of about 31.621 ns on the biasing plates. Unfortunately, I don't think we'll get to that. We might have a hard time even making 15.812 KHz. That's a pulse time of 31621 ns on the biasing plates.

    Anyway, I also attempted to "narrow" the flux path just as it comes into proximity with the water tank, to intensify the flux. Not sure if that's how it works, or if the flux will leak out the sides of those tapers.

    As for what types of coils to use for the Flux Steering Coils, I'm researching that... toroidal, poloidal, starship, Helmholtz, bifilar series, bifilar reverse, etc. I'm looking for a coil that has a very intense magnetic field in its center (where the flux short circuit path would be), with little to no flux leakage and a high resonance frequency.

    There are other considerations... for instance, do I need to oppose the permanent magnet flux at the full strength of the permanent magnets, or only strong enough to make the flux shift to the long path? When the permanent magnet flux is going through the long flux path, if the coils have lower flux strength than the permanent magnets, will some of the permanent magnet flux still leak back through the short circuit flux paths, despite the coils?

    {EDIT: According to Paul Noel, the coils need ~1/4th the power of the permanent magnet array to 'steer' the magnetic flux.
    Directory:FPPMT:Paul Noel - PESWiki
    So for a 4 Tesla permanent magnet array, we'd need the coils to produce 10,000 Gauss each. Is that doable?}

    I've sent out some emails to people who have done extensive magnet and electromagnet research. If they reply, it'll fill in some rather large gaps in my knowledge.

    And my brain is still chewing on that "metal ring with coils" thing... almost like a Tokamak, but I can't see how you'd 'steer' the magnetic flux through two flux paths and thereby be able to use the static permanent magnet flux in a pulsing manner using something like that.

    I also thought of what would essentially be a 'water motor'... a rapidly spinning magnetic field by steering the permanent magnet flux around in a circle via the two flux paths, with the water tank in the center... but I'm not so sure that'd have the desired effect upon the water molecules. Might just make them spin instead of dissociate.

    I settled upon laminated silicon steel as the flux path, for its low hysteresis and eddy current losses. After all the particulars are worked out, I'll order the metal, create a template and have a bunch of them punched out at a metal shop, then laminate them with clear varnish or the like.

    Today I learned that MRI machines use anywhere from 1.5 to 7 Tesla magnetic field strengths. It's difficult to build a coil that can produce that field strength, but permanent magnets can already be bought that top 1 T, and using Parallel Path can get us up even higher. So we're using weaker electromagnets to get stronger permanent magnets to do work for us.

    Something like this should work well, with 4 of them in a Parallel Path arrangement:
    K&J Magnetics - Products
    Now, what measurement is used to determine its strength? Surface Field, or brMax? They say brMax can't be used because it would require no gap from the face of the magnet, but that's exactly what we'll have, zero gap between the magnet and flux paths.

    Those magnets are about $960 each if you order 4 of them. So $3840 total. I've already spent more than that on this poor little scooter in parts fabrication and having the new electronics built. I'll likely spend that much again in more modifications.

    That's about 4900 pounds of pulling force for 4 magnets... so I'll have to be extremely careful with them. Not even sure how I'd secure them... it's going to take a bit of engineering to avoid sticking things together and never getting them apart again, not to mention avoiding getting various body parts crushed.

    The good thing about this Parallel Path setup is once the magnets are in their holders and surrounded by the flux path metal, there should be very little stray magnetic attraction outside the machine with the coils deenergized. The magnets have a built-in 'keeper' in those magnetic flux 'short circuit' paths... so no chairs flying across the room and sticking to it. Heh.

    I'm going to contact Joe Flynn and see what he has to say. Maybe he can give me a nugget of info that'll help to get this thing started.

    But before I go ordering stuff willy-nilly, let's work out that the thing will at least work like it should, and optimize the design of it.
    Attached Files

    Comment


    • #17
      Just had a thought... what if we used small Flux Steering Coils to switch flux from 1 T permanent magnets into and opposing the flux short circuit paths, which would then oppose the large magnets in the Parallel Path arrays. Then we'd only need each coil to produce ~2500 Gauss. That's definitely doable.

      A cascaded Flux Steering setup, if you will. Not sure how to implement that, though... my brain is pretty much running on empty right now.

      Comment


      • #18
        I just had another thought... this device can run dry without damaging it. I'm hoping that the gas production rate is so high that all one has to do is feed water into the tank in proportion to how much hydrogen and oxygen gas you need.

        And a question for those of you who know more about magnetics than I do... is this calculation correct?

        Let's say hypothetically that we do use those 1.4 Tesla magnets... 4 of them, 2 in each Parallel Path array. We know that Parallel Path gives ~3.5x the magnetic flux strength over a single magnet. And when the coils are energized, the two Parallel Path arrays will be in series, which is akin to stacking two magnets together.

        ((1.4 Tesla magnet) x ~3.5) x 2 = ~9.8 Tesla

        Is that correct?!

        Conversely, going by pull force:
        K&J Magnetics - Magnet Calculator
        ((1,226.5 lb) x ~3.5) x 2 = 8,585.5 lb

        Is that correct?

        If so, we'd have enough magnetic force to overcome the inter-quark strong force of 2248.089 lb-f, as I outlined here.
        Last edited by Cycle; 12-02-2014, 02:51 PM.

        Comment


        • #19
          This is how I'd wind the Flux Steering Coils:
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGytW_C6hR8#t=295

          But I'd go them one better... it'd essentially be a bifilar flat winding coil. Since the Flux Steering Coil electromagnets are small compared to the ones the people at the National High Magnetic Field Laboratory make, it wouldn't take long to build them once you got a template.

          Comment


          • #20
            A much simplified version... more compact and probably easier to build.

            This version has two water tanks, thus it should double gas production over the previous version. There are no potential flux leak paths on this version.

            You'll note the light gray wrapped around the magnets... that's the flux 'short circuit' much like in the previous version, but with a twist. When the coils are energized, it magnetizes that flux 'short circuit', thereby allowing the permanent magnet's flux to flow out to the flux path, and thus to the water tanks.

            All three Pulse Coils would be energized and deenergized at the same time.

            So this version is using aspects of the Joe Flynn Parallel Path technology, as well as the Jack Hildenbrand flux shunt technology. The previous one did, as well, but the flux shunt wasn't integral to the magnet assembly.

            As in the prior version, the Biasing Coils would generate a voltage from the building and collapsing magnetic field. That voltage would go through a voltage multiplier and full-wave rectifier, then be applied to the Biasing Plates in the water tanks. They'd pulse their DC to the Biasing Plates at twice the frequency of the Pulse Coils, but that'd still be a resonant frequency of the short O-H bond.

            The advantages of this version:
            1) When it's off, there should be no external magnetic flux, since it's all going through the wrapped shunts

            2) It'd take very little energy to magnetize the flux shunts and thereby put magnetic flux onto the flux paths. This is sort of the Cascaded Flux Steering idea that I'd discussed previously.

            3) Two water tanks means double gas production

            4) You can add as many magnet/shunt/coil assemblies as your flux path can handle.

            See the attached .PNG and .PDF files.
            Attached Files
            Last edited by Cycle; 11-30-2014, 10:04 PM.

            Comment


            • #21
              Point of departure?

              A few posts back you were quoting Meyer.
              I don't know if repeating his work is where you were heading.
              At no point he mentioned magnetic manipulation as the key to his technique.

              Are you heading a different direction?

              Comment


              • #22
                More divergent thinking...

                How does it work?: Magnetic resonance imaging
                ======================================
                When additional energy (in the form of a radio wave) is added to the magnetic field, the magnetic vector is deflected. The radio wave frequency (RF) that causes the hydrogen nuclei to resonate is dependent on the element sought (hydrogen in this case) and the strength of the magnetic field.

                Modern nmr spectrometers use powerful magnets having fields of 1 to 20 T. Even with these high fields, the energy difference between the two spin states is less than 0.1 cal/mole.

                For nmr purposes, this small energy difference (deltaE) is usually given as a frequency in units of MHz, ranging from 20 to 900 MHz, depending on the magnetic field strength and the specific nucleus being studied.

                Irradiation of a sample with radio frequency (rf) energy corresponding exactly to the spin state separation of a specific set of nuclei will cause excitation of those nuclei in the +1/2 state to the higher -1/2 spin state.



                For spin 1/2 nuclei the energy difference between the two spin states at a given magnetic field strength will be proportional to their magnetic moments. For the four common nuclei noted above, the magnetic moments are: 1H μ = 2.7927, 19F μ = 2.6273, 31P μ = 1.1305 & 13C μ = 0.7022. These moments are in nuclear magnetons, which are 5.05078x10^-27 JT-1.

                The following diagram gives the approximate frequencies that correspond to the spin state energy separations for each of these nuclei in an external magnetic field of 2.35 T. The formula in the colored box shows the direct correlation of frequency (energy difference) with magnetic moment (h = Planck's constant = 6.626069x10^-34 Js).


                ======================================
                So, let's work out the math here:
                v = (u * B0 / hI) * 5.05078e-27

                u = 2.7927 nuclear magnetons
                B0 = 2.35 Tesla
                h = 6.626069e-34 Js
                I = 0.5

                ((((2.7927 * 2.35) * 2) / 6.626069e-34) * 5.05078e-27)

                Hydrogen: 100.051738879 MHz frequency difference between its 'spin down' and 'spin up' state in a 2.35 T magnetic field.

                Let's look at what happens in Earth's magnetic field, with no other external magnetic field...

                We'll take the Earth's magnetic field at its weakest (25 microTesla) and strongest (65 microTesla):

                Weakest:
                ((((2.7927 * 2.5e-5) * 2) / 6.626069e-34) * 5.05078e-27)

                Strongest:
                ((((2.7927 * 6.5e-5) * 2) / 6.626069e-34) * 5.05078e-27)

                Hydrogen: 1.06438020084 KHz frequency difference between its 'spin down' and 'spin up' state in Earth's magnetic field at its weakest spot.

                Hydrogen: 2.76738852218 KHz frequency difference between its 'spin down' and 'spin up' state in Earth's magnetic field at its strongest spot.

                So the resonant frequency of the O-H bond is dependent upon the O-H bond length, which is dependent upon the hydrogen's proton spin relaxation, which is dependent upon the strength of the static magnetic field the proton is in because the static magnetic field forces the proton to give up energy.

                That's why Stan Meyer was higher than my calculated resonant frequency... he'd weakened the O-H bond, which blue-shifted (raised) the resonant frequency... the same that the researchers found when they blue-shifted during their "Dynamics of Ultra-Fast Dissociation" experiments.

                So we may have to come up with some means of making a waveform with which to pulse the coils that starts out at the calculated resonant frequency, and increases as the resonance adds energy, causes less proton spin relaxation, and thereby weakens the O-H bonds.

                Wow... it's a good thing we're not going to try using a static magnetic field, then... that could get complicated. We're just going to hammer on the hydrogen via a resonantly pulsing magnetic field and resonantly pulsing voltage.

                They both resonantly add energy to the proton until it undergoes deprotonation. The water molecule pukes a proton (alpha particle).

                It should be noted here that under the right circumstances, proton emission leads to transmutation, as Ernest Rutherford proved when he transmuted nitrogen to oxygen and hydrogen in 1917 using alpha particle (proton) bombardment... I wonder what would happen if we bubbled air (78.084% nitrogen) through our water during dissociation, if some of the nitrogen would transmute into oxygen and hydrogen? Resonance-induced water dissociation is a rich environment for proton emission (that's sort of the underlying definition of resonance-induced water dissociation, after all), so it just may.

                Anyway, the hydrogen nucleus (proton) immediately grabs another water molecule and forms H3O. So we're left with OH- (hydroxide) and H3O+ (hydronium).

                All we're doing at this stage is increasing the ionization constant of water (the total concentration of OH- (alkaline) and H3O+ (acidic) in H2O). We're literally separating out the high pH and low pH components of water. That's why we need the voltage, to keep them electrostatically separated. Otherwise, they'll just recombine exothermically, heating up the water but otherwise not doing anything.

                For electrolysis, the following takes place:
                Cathode (reduction): 2 H2O(l) + 2e− = H2(g) + 2 OH−(aq)
                Anode (oxidation): 4 OH−(aq) = O2(g) + 2 H2O(l) + 4 e−

                We can disregard the Cathode (reduction) part, we're using resonance (in this case, magnetic and electrical) to make the nuclei puke a proton, thereby creating our hydroxide that way.

                So in the end, we should be left with O2, 4 electrons, and H3O. Those 4 electrons then go on to create 2 H2 and 4 more OH-.

                So the end gas should be a mix of O2, H2 and H3O.

                I think. Chemistry was never my forte.

                How do we dissociate the H3O? The same way as we dissociated the H2O... with resonance. Except this time, we use 7 KHz or thereabouts: http://fermi.uchicago.edu/publications/PDF/oka217.pdf

                I think that's why Stan Meyer was using 7.960 KHz, to dissociate the H3O.


                Side note: I learned *why* a static magnetic field strengthens the O-H bonds... NMR Spectroscopy
                =======================================
                A spinning charge generates a magnetic field. In the presence of an external magnetic field (B0), two spin states exist, +1/2 and -1/2. The magnetic moment of the lower energy +1/2 state is aligned with the external field, but that of the higher energy -1/2 spin state is opposed to the external field.
                =======================================

                So a strong static magnetic field forces the hydrogen nuclei to exit their higher energy 'spin down' state, give up energy and enter the lower energy 'spin up' state. In so doing, they shorten their bond with their oxygen atom because they're at a lower energy state, ie: greater proton spin relaxation.
                Last edited by Cycle; 12-02-2014, 03:05 AM.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by MasterBlaster View Post
                  A few posts back you were quoting Meyer.
                  I don't know if repeating his work is where you were heading.
                  At no point he mentioned magnetic manipulation as the key to his technique.

                  Are you heading a different direction?
                  The frequencies that Meyer used are a good starting point to what I'll be trying... resonance is resonance, whether you're adding energy to the hydrogen's proton via RF, voltage or magnetism.

                  Remember that the water molecule is both dipolar and diamagnetic... so voltage and magnetism can do work upon it. The trick in my case is to get a strong enough magnetic flux, and 'steer' that magnetic flux at a resonant frequency, efficiently enough that it's worthwhile.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    We need a feedback mechanism, something that can tell us what the resonant frequency of the short O-H bond is.

                    An MRI machine does it by picking up and amplifying the RF that the proton gives off as its spin state relaxes after excitation. Since they're hitting the hydrogen atom and its proton with MHz frequency, that doesn't give it a lot of time to relax.

                    I think (and correct me if I'm off base here) the *reason* x-ray radiation is so effective at dissociating water is that it never gives the proton a chance to spin down.

                    Think of a swing set on springs instead of chains, with a resonant frequency of, say, 3162.4 swings-per-minute being akin to a proton with a resonant frequency of 3.1624 ExaHertz. At that speed, it'll fly apart. We also have to assume that the frictional drag of the swing set is somewhat akin to the proton spinning down. And we have to assume that it has a 'relaxed' state as a proton does, a minimum spin speed. We'll assume that to be 1471.7 swings-per-minute for the swing set, akin to the 1.4717 ExaHertz of the long O-H bond.

                    Now, if we were to give that swing set a push at a resonant subharmonic of, say, 3.1624 Hz, or once every 1000 swings, it'd give the swing set plenty of time to 'spin down', in the parlance of a proton. It might even reach its relaxation state if we didn't impart enough energy to it with each 'push'.

                    Let's go up to 31.624 Hz, or once every 100 swings. Now we don't have to push it as hard each time to keep it swinging above its rest state, because the swing has less time to 'spin down' between pushes.

                    Let's go up to 316.24 Hz, or once every 10 swings. Same thing, it'll 'spin down' less between each 'push', and the average swing 'width' will remain more steady.

                    Let's go all the way up to 3162.4 Hz. We give the swingset *no* chance to 'spin down'. We're adding energy resonantly each and every time.

                    Now, it gets complicated in the case of a proton, because if we're "pushing" it at that frequency, and that's not the spin speed of the proton, we're actually pushing *against* the proton some of the time... akin to not pushing the swing just as it reaches its apogee. If we're hitting it with enough energy and we get lucky and hit it at just the right time, we get it to its highest resonant frequency. Then it's a quick "one-more-push" to break it apart, but the rest of the time, we're wasting energy.

                    If we can push at just the right frequency, we add energy resonantly. If not, we're detracting from the energy we've already added, and if we're not adding enough energy with each 'push' we may never reach that point that makes the water molecule puke a proton, undergo deprotonation.

                    So, we have to measure somehow what the spin speed of the proton is. An MRI does it by measuring the frequency and converting that to an image.

                    We have to figure out how to do the same, but we don't have to create an image as an MRI does, we just have to use it to keep adding energy resonantly.

                    Another take-away from this is that if we're hitting it with lower subharmonic frequencies, we've got to hit it at the right time *and* with enough energy to spin that proton all the way up, compounding the complications of splitting the water.

                    Thoughts?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Can someone please translate this for me? I'm having trouble wrapping my head around this, for some reason:

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_(unit)
                      =========================
                      1 tesla is equivalent to:
                      42.6 MHz of the 1H nucleus frequency, in NMR. Thus a 1 GHz NMR magnetic field is 23.5 teslas.
                      =========================

                      {EDIT}
                      Ah, that's the Larmor Frequency... and it should be 42.576 MHz/Tesla for Hydrogen.

                      I've been researching this, and found this:

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyromagnetic_ratio
                      In physics, the gyromagnetic ratio (also sometimes known as the magnetogyric ratio in other disciplines) of a particle or system is the ratio of its magnetic dipole moment to its angular momentum, and it is often denoted by the symbol γ, gamma. Its SI unit is the radian per second per tesla (rad·s−1·T -1) or, equivalently, the coulomb per kilogram (C·kg−1).

                      The gyromagnetic ratio of a nucleus is particularly important because of the role it plays in nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR) and magnetic resonance imaging (MRI). These procedures rely on the fact that bulk magnetization due to nuclear spins precess in a magnetic field at a rate called the Larmor frequency, which is simply the product of the gyromagnetic ratio with the magnetic field strength.

                      So what we're trying to do is hit the ferromagnetic resonance of the Larmor Frequency for hydrogen. While hydrogen doesn't exhibit classical ferromagnetic properties, it still has a ferromagnetic resonance.

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferromagnetic_resonance
                      The basic setup for an FMR experiment is a microwave resonant cavity with an electromagnet. The resonant cavity is fixed at a frequency in the super high frequency band. A detector is placed at the end of the cavity to detect the microwaves. The magnetic sample is placed between the poles of the electromagnet and the magnetic field is swept while the resonant absorption intensity of the microwaves is detected. When the magnetization precession frequency and the resonant cavity frequency are the same, absorption increases sharply which is indicated by a decrease in the intensity at the detector.

                      So basically, we're spinning up the proton by hitting its resonant frequency that corresponds to the short O-H bond, then trying to get the proton to precess *so* much that it deprotonates. In so doing, we sharply increase its absorption cross section, making the process more efficient.

                      Note that the Larmor Frequency for hydrogen (42.576 MHz per Tesla) is very close to John Keely's stated 42.8 KHz subharmonic.

                      So to be more effective at breaking the water molecule apart, we should be hitting the water with magnetic flux at the Larmor Frequency (or a subharmonic), and hitting it with voltage pulses at the short O-H bond resonant frequency (or a subharmonic).

                      That'll get the proton spinning as fast as possible, lengthening the O-H bond. The magnetic flux will make it precess so much that it breaks.

                      I think... I'm stretching the boundaries of my knowledge here. It'd be great if someone with more knowledge than I have could comment.
                      Last edited by Cycle; 12-02-2014, 05:19 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Let's dive a bit deeper into the physical structure of a proton to see if there are any weaknesses we can exploit... this probably won't help us any, but I want to archive it here for future reference, just in case I stumble across something that looks promising, so I don't have to go digging back through tons of research on a bunch of different websites. You can most likely safely ignore this post.

                        There are quarks and there are gluons that make up a proton.

                        The quark is the elementary particle, while the gluon is the "glue" that holds those elementary particles together.

                        The quark:
                        ========================================
                        There are two types of quark: quarks and anti-quarks.
                        They come in six flavors: up, down, top, bottom, charmed and strange.
                        They also come in six colors: red, blue, green, anti-red (cyan), anti-blue (yellow) and anti-green (magenta).

                        Usually only up and down quarks exist... the others only come about from high-energy collisions and decay to up and down quarks.

                        Quarks have two states of spin:
                        +1/2
                        -1/2

                        Up and down quarks have two charge values:
                        up quarks have electric charge of +2/3
                        down quarks have electric charge of -1/3

                        Anti-quarks have opposite charges to their corresponding quarks.
                        ========================================

                        The gluon:
                        ========================================
                        Gluons come in eight different colors based upon six color types:
                        red, blue, green, anti-red (cyan), anti-blue (yellow) and anti-green (magenta)

                        red|magenta
                        red|yellow
                        green|cyan
                        green|yellow
                        blue|cyan
                        blue|magenta
                        red|cyan + blue|yellow
                        red|cyan + green|magenta - 2blue|yellow

                        There's a ninth if we try to do normal color mixing:
                        red|cyan + blue|yellow + green|magenta
                        but since its color combination results in neutral, it cannot exist.

                        I have no idea why there can be:
                        red|cyan + green|magenta - 2blue|yellow
                        but not:
                        red|cyan + blue|yellow - 2green|magenta
                        green|magenta + blue|yellow - 2red|cyan

                        It gets very complicated very quickly, and I have enough problem with numerical addition and subtraction, let alone color addition and subtraction. Heh.
                        ========================================

                        Ok, moving on...

                        A proton (a baryon hadron fermion) consists of three valence quarks (two up quarks (each with electric charge of +2/3) and one down quark (with electric charge of -1/3)), which is why a proton has a net electric charge of +1.

                        What happens when we break that structure?

                        Well, that's not easy to do, I found out. The inter-quark strong force is 137 times stronger than electromagnetism. The strong force doesn't diminish with distance, it actually gets stronger up to a point, then it stays steady at about 10,000 Newtons at greater distances. That's about 2248.089 lb-f. So it's a strong force. Perplexingly, it gets weaker the closer together the quarks are... it's hypothesized that inside the proton, the quarks are essentially 'free'... but try ripping a quark out of the proton, and that strong force strengthens and either pulls the quark back, pulls a quark from another proton, or manufactures a new quark from the vacuum.

                        We could use temperature to free the quarks... if we could produce a temperature of two trillion degrees Kelvin (36,000,000,000 F). Anyone have a particle accelerator? They can make 7 trillion degrees now.

                        We can change the quark's flavor:


                        An up quark can become a down quark, strange quark or bottom quark.
                        A down quark can become an up quark, charmed quark or top quark.

                        How do we convert quarks to different flavors?

                        Well, there are two ways (two vertices), Charged Current Interaction and Neutral Current Interaction:
                        ==================================
                        There are two types of weak interaction (called vertices). The first type is called the "charged-current interaction" because it is mediated by particles that carry an electric charge (the W+ or W− bosons), and is responsible for the beta decay phenomenon. The second type is called the "neutral-current interaction" because it is mediated by a neutral particle, the Z boson.

                        In one type of charged current interaction, a charged lepton (such as an electron or a muon, having a charge of −1) can absorb a W+ boson (a particle with a charge of +1) and be thereby converted into a corresponding neutrino (with a charge of 0).
                        ==================================
                        We're not going to get into bosons and leptons... my brain can only hold so much for one day. The takeaway is that the strong force preserves quark color and flavor... so the inner workings of a proton are pretty much indestructible. At least under the conditions that we can subject it to.

                        But I will note this for future reference:
                        Weak interaction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
                        The weak interaction is unique in that it allows for quarks to swap their flavour for another. For example, during beta minus decay, a down quark decays into an up quark, converting a neutron to a proton. In addition, the weak interaction is the only fundamental interaction that breaks parity-symmetry, and similarly, the only one to break CP-symmetry.

                        So there's a way to break the inner workings of the proton, but it involves essentially nuclear changes, something the average layman isn't capable of. Yet.

                        Imagine the energy that could be obtained if we could figure out how to split the proton. Orders of magnitude more than splitting the atom. Because mass is, after all, just condensed energy. And it takes a lot of energy to generate a little mass... or conversely, a little mass to generate a lot of energy.

                        {EDIT:}
                        No, scratch the above paragraph... splitting the proton won't result in a release of energy:
                        Re: How much power would result from splitting a proton?
                        Re: What happens when you split a proton, neutron, or electron?
                        {/EDIT}

                        Now that we've delved into Quantum Electrodynamics and Quantum Chromodynamics, I find that there's even Sub Quantum Chromodynamics, which discusses the Creation Particle Higgs (CPH), of which supposedly *everything* is made.

                        Whew! This is a steep learning curve just to split water!

                        An interesting tidbit:
                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadron
                        Hadrons, however, are not composed of just three or two quarks, because of the strength of the strong force. More accurately, strong force gluons have enough energy (E) to have resonances composed of massive (m) quarks (E > mc2).

                        What does that "E > mc2" mean?

                        And this:
                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluon
                        At a large enough distance, it becomes energetically more favorable to pull a quark-antiquark pair out of the vacuum rather than increase the length of the flux tube.

                        "out of the vacuum"?

                        And this:
                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadronization
                        In particle physics, hadronization (or hadronisation) is the process of the formation of hadrons out of quarks and gluons. This occurs after high-energy collisions in a particle collider in which free quarks or gluons are created. Due to postulated colour confinement, these cannot exist individually. In the Standard Model they combine with quarks and antiquarks spontaneously created from the vacuum to form hadrons.

                        Hmmm... so literally creating matter from energy... in this case, what can only be described as Zero Point Energy or that sea of entropied energy that washes throughout the universe? If energy can come from the vacuum to create matter, then why is practically every scientist out there saying that energy can't be pulled from the vacuum and used to do work?

                        For the record, a hadron is:
                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadron
                        Hadrons are categorized into two families: baryons (such as protons and neutrons, made of three quarks) and mesons (such as pions, made of one quark and one antiquark).

                        And another bit of archivery for potential future use:
                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadron
                        In other phases of matter the hadrons may disappear. For example, at very high temperature and high pressure, unless there are sufficiently many flavors of quarks, the theory of quantum chromodynamics (QCD) predicts that quarks and gluons will no longer be confined within hadrons, "because the strength of the strong interaction diminishes with energy". This property, which is known as asymptotic freedom, has been experimentally confirmed in the energy range between 1 GeV (gigaelectronvolt) and 1 TeV (teraelectronvolt).
                        Last edited by Cycle; 12-02-2014, 11:26 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Ok, so now we know going the nuclear route isn't going to net us much... let's try the chemical route. What can we build into the machine or add to the water to increase deprotonaton efficiency?

                          1) Magnesium Hexahydrate Ions
                          Deprotonation of Water in the Presence of Carboxylate and Magnesium Ions
                          In the hexahydrate Mg[H2O]6^2+ the free energy required to deprotonate one coordinated water molecule is only 40% of that required to deprotonate a free water molecule, indicating that the presence of the magnesium ion facilitates the ionization of water.

                          2) Zinc
                          9.2.2. Catalysis Entails Zinc Activation of Water
                          Zinc facilitates the release of a proton from a water molecule, which generates a hydroxide ion.

                          3) Carbonic Anhydrases
                          Section 9.2 Making a Fast Reaction Faster: Carbonic Anhydrases
                          Less than 10 years after the discovery of carbonic anhydrase in 1932, this enzyme was found to contain bound zinc, associated with catalytic activity.
                          Direct measurements reveal that this water molecule has a pKa value of 8.7, not as low as the value for the water molecule in carbonic anhydrase but substantially lower than the value for free water.

                          4) Pyridine and manganese oxide
                          Regulating proton-coupled electron transfer for efficient water splitting by manganese oxides at neutral pH
                          Pyridine and its derivatives, which have pKa values intermediate to the water ligand bound to manganese(II) and manganese(III), are used as proton-coupled electron transfer induction reagents. The induction of concerted proton-coupled electron transfer is demonstrated by the detection of deuterium kinetic isotope effects.

                          5) phosphomolybdate anions
                          Split water splitting raises green hydrogen hopes
                          Of the polyoxometalates they tried, phosphomolybdate anions, [H2PMo12O40]-, worked best. ‘In one instance, we stored our reduced and protonated ECPB for eight months before we re-oxidised it to liberate hydrogen,’ Cronin notes. But splitting the reaction into two steps imposes an energy penalty, making it 87% as efficient as the one step reaction, at best.

                          6) Sodium hydride and potassium hydride
                          Deprotonation
                          Hydrides are one of the many types of powerful deprotonating agents. Common hydrides used are sodium hydride and potassium hydride. The hydride forms hydrogen gas with the proton from the other molecule.
                          Last edited by Cycle; 12-03-2014, 07:42 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Nature

                            I don't agree with most of new developments in nuclear theory. I am not a nuclear engineer but I believe nature works in much simpler ways. You could come up with your own theories and if you get the government to throw money at it then your theories will be taught in universities!

                            Why I am trying to say is follow your own instinct.

                            Above you made a comment with "137" in it this always gets my attention.
                            I don't know if you are aware of the significance of 137. If you don't, you may start here:
                            God's Number of Creation - 137 and 7

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              A completely off-the-wall thought...

                              Toroidal coils can create plasma. I found a YouTube video of one doing so a while back, but I can't find it now.

                              Has anyone tried creating a toroidal coil, pulsing it at the resonant frequency of water to generate a plasma, and putting the water container inside the torus so it's in the plasma stream?

                              The problems we would have with devices as outlined in my rough drawings is magnetic leakage, switching at a high enough frequency, magnetic flux saturation of the flux path metal, and heating of the Flux Steering Coils because they'd have to have a lot of current pushed through them to steer the magnetic flux, then they'd have a lot of current pushed out of them when that magnetic flux collapsed.

                              Inside a toroidal coil, we have the resonant frequency easily, since it's an air core. We have an intense magnetic field due to the design of the toroidal coil. And we'd have a plasma with unknown effects upon the water.

                              Remember, the protons in the hydrogen atoms in the water molecules are effected by magnetism, which is why Nuclear Magnetic Resonance imaging (MRI) works. We just have to figure out how to efficiently resonantly add energy to the protons until they deprotonate. Since water ionizes and dissociates simultaneously, deprotonation means dissociation of the water.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X