"Maybe" Different Approach On Electrolysis?

[Redmeanie]

I was toying around with a thought, and wondered if anyone has tried this....
Has anyone used a Car Audio Amplifier in their electrolysis set-up to see what would happen? These are capable of a wide range of frequencies, pretty durable, built to handle the constantly changing loads and now a days very cheap to buy.
I'm just thinking out loud here, but it seems logical to me. It would only seem necessary to adjust the waters resistance to between 10 and 4 ohms correct?
Then it should drive the electrolysis as it would a speaker according to the input signal from say a tone generator or even a "track" of your own musical master piece you've composed on your computer of whatever timing and frequencies you like.....
Just a Thought, Anyone tried this or have any input?
Thanks,
Mira
Here is a really cool tone generator program that lets you make any type wave and freq. you wish...
Tone Generator Software - Create Audio Test Tones, Sweeps or Noise Waveforms

[hydrocars]

if you was to remove electrons from the water molecule, say using static, the water molecule atoms electrons protons etc,, would start to resonate at their own frequency because this is what they do.

if you can tap into the frequency that the resonant water molecule has taken on then you could amplify the resonate action until the molecule took a higher charge.

[Aaron]

audio in water

Puharich used some type of audio amplifier to pump into water to make water gas.

[Redmeanie]

I Knew someone had...

I knew someone had done some experimentation using audio....Ive been looking into it and it seems VERY possible since basically the Freq Generator will simply mimic a solid state design like a 555, using the amp as a power supply. And thanks to modern circuitry a Class D amp is ideal for such a use! I don't believe that this type of audio amp was available when the first attempts were made using audio.
I have ordered a 300 watt 4 channel Class D amp and will be adding this to my setup to see if there is any difference. If this works one would be able to generate a multitude of frequency and pulse lengths and also using the fader, and balance, trigger them at different times so that the different channels could be used sorta like a pulse train of different freq's...
I will let you know what happens!

[Redmeanie]

Info on Amplifiers....

I found some interesting info here at wikipedia and checked the sitings all seem to be correct...
One thing that stood out about the Class D amp was the fact that they were originally used to drive DC Motors!
You can read the whole article here:

Electronic amplifier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Or just the Class D Amp Part Here: If you take a little time to read through it, you will see why Im looking in this direction....

Class D

Main article: Switching amplifier

Class D amplifiers are much more efficient than Class AB power amplifiers. As such, Class D amplifiers do not need large transformers and heavy heatsinks, which means that they are smaller and lighter in weight than an equivalent Class AB amplifier. All power devices in a Class D amplifier are operated in on/off mode. Output stages such as those used in pulse generators are examples of class D amplifiers. The term usually applies to devices intended to reproduce signals with a bandwidth well below the switching frequency.

These amplifiers use pulse width modulation, pulse density modulation (sometimes referred to as pulse frequency modulation) or more advanced form of modulation such as Delta-sigma modulation (for example, in the Analog Devices AD1990 Class-D audio power amplifier).

The input signal is converted to a sequence of pulses whose averaged value is directly proportional to the instantaneous amplitude of the signal. The frequency of the pulses is typically ten or more times the highest frequency of interest in the input signal. The output of such an amplifier contains unwanted spectral components (that is, the pulse frequency and its harmonics) which must be removed by a passive filter. The resulting filtered signal is then an amplified replica of the input.

The main advantage of a class D amplifier is power efficiency. Because the output pulses have a fixed amplitude, the switching elements (usually MOSFETs, but valves and bipolar transistors were once used) are switched either on or off, rather than operated in linear mode. This means that very little power is dissipated by the transistors, except during the very short interval between the on and off states. The wasted power is low because the instantaneous power dissipated in the transistor is the product of voltage and current, and one or the other is almost always close to zero. The lower losses permit the use of a smaller heat sink while the power supply requirements are lessened too.

Class D amplifiers can be controlled by either analog or digital circuits. The digital control introduces additional distortion called quantization error caused by its conversion of the input signal to a digital value.

Class D amplifiers have been widely used to control motors, and almost exclusively for small DC motors, but they are now also used as audio amplifiers, with some extra circuitry to allow analogue to be converted to a much higher frequency pulse width modulated signal. The relative difficulty of achieving good audio quality means that nearly all are used in applications where quality is not a factor, such as modestly-priced bookshelf audio systems and "DVD-receivers" in mid-price home theater systems.

High quality Class D audio amplifiers are now, however, starting to appear in the market. Tripath have called their revised Class D designs Class T. Perhaps more famously, Bang and Olufsen's ICEPower Class D system has been used in the Alpine PDX range and some Pioneer's PRS range and for other manufacturers' equipment. These revised designs have been said to rival good traditional AB amplifiers in terms of quality.

Before these higher quality designs existed an earlier use of Class D amplifiers and prolific area of application was high-powered, subwoofer amplifiers in cars. Because subwoofers are generally limited to a bandwidth of no higher than 150 Hz, the switching speed for the amplifier does not have to be as high as for a full range amplifier. The drawback with Class D designs being used to power subwoofers is that their output filters (typically inductors that convert the pulse width signal back into an analogue waveform) lower the damping factor of the amplifier.

This means that the amplifier cannot prevent the subwoofer's reactive nature from lessening the impact of low bass sounds (as explained in the feedback part of the Class AB section). Class D amplifiers for driving subwoofers are relatively inexpensive, in comparison to Class AB amplifiers. A 1000 watt Class D subwoofer amplifier that can operate at about 80% to 95% efficiency costs about $250 USD, much less than a Class AB amplifier of this power, which would cost several thousand dollars.

The letter D used to designate this amplifier class is simply the next letter after C, and does not stand for digital. Class D and Class E amplifiers are sometimes mistakenly described as "digital" because the output waveform superficially resembles a pulse-train of digital symbols, but a Class D amplifier merely converts an input waveform into a continuously pulse-width modulated (square wave) analog signal. (A digital waveform would be pulse-code modulated.)

[Jan H]

i've tried this about a year ago with a tone generator and a sony TA-f30 household amplifier. It did not work. I think mostly because i couldn't get the voltage high enough it kicked out about 40V at 50hz i couldnt measure the higher frequencies because i dont have a scope.

[Aaron]

Method and apparatus for splitting water molecules

Abstract
Disclosed herein is a new and improved thermodynamic device to produce hydrogen gas and oxygen gas from ordinary water molecules or from seawater at normal temperatures and pressure. Also disclosed is a new and improved method for electrically treating water molecules to decompose them into hydrogen gas and oxygen gas at efficiency levels ranging between approximately 80-100%. The evolved hydrogen gas may be used as a fuel; and the evolved oxygen gas may be used as an oxidant.

Go check out
Patent number: 4394230
Filing date: Jun 10, 1981
Issue date: Jul 19, 1983



5. The method of claim 1, in which
(a) the applied complex wave form is a signal in the form of an audio-frequency, amplitude modulated carrier wave;

[Redmeanie]

Almost certain...

Jan,
Im almost certain, through all the research Ive looked through in this, it has to be a "Class D" amplifier to work. The reason is based on the way the Class D functions. It has 2 state signals on and off basically the same as a square wave. That is why they were used as DC Motor Controllers.

Im also pretty sure that a home amplifier is probably Class A, B or AB. Due to the fact that the sound quality on these is much better and there is no real size issue. And these do not function in the same way.

Class D's are Typically much smaller and designed particularly as Mono style Subwoofer Amps and constructed for 12v usage. However they were originally developed specifically for what we want to mimic, Pulse Generators and DC Motor Controllers.

[Redmeanie]

Thanks Aaron...

Thanks for the info.....
It is pretty hard to find info in this area of electrolysis because there were so few people thinking in that direction I guess.... Either way it will be interesting to see what happens!
After all if it doesn't work at least I got a nice Amplifier out of the deal!

[Redmeanie]

Thanks...

Thanks Aaron,
I knew I had seen this done by someone else! Henry Puharich's patent was mentioned in one of the "Intro to Hydrogen" type documents I read over on Pat Kelly's site awhile back.
Seeing the whole process is very promising! Pretty much everything is shown in his patent too. Freq's and all!
Plus how he had to cut the signal in half for the negative signal, will not be an issue using the Class D amp because it only has 2 states it's either putting out a signal or its not. Unlike the older style class a and b audio amplifiers like he was using that are basically always putting out some type of "Floating" signal even when there is no Audible audio signal coming through it.

Can't Wait to see what happens!

[Aaron]

replication

I don't know anything about stereo amps and haven't heard of anyone replicating any of Puharich's claims. If you do, you're the first I know of and with an understanding of the audio components, you just may do it.

[Redmeanie]

Update...

Well after popping a few resistors on my guinea pig class d amp and subsequent repairs to said device I found out through a few conversations with some electronics specialists that focus on audio equipment that this can work....And after i was told how I could have smacked myself! The Mosfets on the board in an Audio Amp are AUDIO POWER MOSFETS (Dohhh!!! ) The rest of the components are designed to function as a standard Class D (Motor controlling type) Just with Audio Mosfets Instead of Straight Power Mosfets!

So soon I will be desoldering and retrofitting this thing, just to see if it works!



silent Prayer (God Please Help me to focus on one project at a time....I thank you for the ability to dream up these wild ideas.....I just ask you to Moderate them!....Thanks Again and AMEN!)

[froot]

I think the whole concept of using an audio amplifier is sweetened by the versatility of the output waveform and frequency to the 'electrolyser', 'water splitter', 'HHO generator' or whatever the correct term is. For experimental purposes any class amplifier will suffice, and work on the efficiency of the amplifier once you have zero'd in on the optimin frequency, waveforem, and voltage and this circuit optimisation may result in a completely different oscillator based circuit design.
As far as I know, the input to a 'HHO generator' needs to be DC, pulsed or not, this means that the current at the output can only flow in one direction which is not the case at the output of an audio amp.
2 ways to fix this:
1 - Change the dc bias of the output transistors/mosfets in order to create a constant mean dc output at idle, the voltage of which would be equel to half of the desired output peak voltage of the waveform going to the 'HHO generator'

2 - Connect the output of the audio amp to a transformer and rectify the secondary winding to get the pulsed DC. The downside of this is that a 50% duty cycly square wave will appear as a messy constant DC at the output of the xformer. You will need to vary the pulse width of the square wave independantly of the frequency at your signal generator to get the desired effect output. You can also just try a single diode half wave rectifier but I'm not sure how this will affect the feedback stability in the audio amp. The upside of this is that you can use a step-up transformer to obtain higher voltages beyond the limits of the output transistors.

This is where my thoughts on this have got me to so far, option 2 would be my choice.

[Aaron]

rf connection?

Check out the post by Fearjar here:
The Water Fuel Cell :: View topic - Puharich patent

Strong claim for gas production at the end.

[Jetijs]

Aaron, that is a great info.
So as far as I understood, we simply need an alternator for a power source, an frequency generator that drives all that alternator generated voltage through an induction coil at a given frequency and, of course, the induction coil. Right?
I found this info interesting because Joe (the inventor of joecells) in one video said, that first electric cars in Tesla times were driven by an unregulated dynamo. The voltage regulator on alternators block the natural frequencies of the dynamo/alternator and in such way prevent those frequencies to enter the load (engine, electric motor, water cell), but those frequencies in fact are all we need instead of current.