All about electrolysers, HHO, joecells ect. :)

[Unknowing]

1 more newbie

I have read this thread, viewed the Utube stuff, and read a bit more here and there.

As I understand it there are basically two designs for producing HHO/Brown Gas.

The use of spike pulses (Stan Meyer) and low voltage cells (Boyce)?

Are the spike pulses, with the use of capacitors are more than 100% efficient? Meaning it produces more energy than it consumes?

I have seen several designs of different types of cells, but is information available about the pulse design (I saw the Peter Lindemann video). Is a design available that will produce enough HHO to run a car engine? What are the problems with this endeavor?

Thanks

Unknowing

[ANTIQUER]

Hi guys,

I really don't know how could ultrasonic fogger and paint could solve the foam crawling up problem. I didn't experiment on these two methods as you have suggested. It's good to try out new methods to solve problem but before that we must understand the root cause of the problem.

First, why foam develops in the cell? Foam develops when the electrolyte is cold or hot? For example, foam crawling up problem will not happen with newly prepared electrolyte. Why? Because the electrolyte is still fresh and warm. When the electrolyte left it cool off overnight, the next day power on will see foam crawling up problem.

I did some simple experiment with open top series cell design. During conditioning process when the electrolyte stays warms, I tried to add cold distil water. Immediately, I could see the more foams on that particular cell. Then I tried to blow air on top of the cell and same effects observed. So I concluded this is because of cold electrolyte.

How to solve this problem? Use small heater to heat up the electrolyte before turn on power to electrolyser. This should solve the problem.

Hi! Kumaran.
As far as the paint idea I think the only one that might have a chance is a powder coat. All the others will come loose due to the effect the KOH & electrolysis have on the bond between the stainless & the paint. You might even have to bake that for awhile after initial dry time. Maybe someone can suggest something like tsp to reduce the surface tension of the bubbles (or not- I'm no chemist): I do have a lot of experience with various coatings on different surfaces. Have you gotten your carb. back from your mechanic yet?

[kumaran]

Hi ANTIQUER,

Hi! Kumaran.
As far as the paint idea I think the only one that might have a chance is a powder coat. All the others will come loose due to the effect the KOH & electrolysis have on the bond between the stainless & the paint. You might even have to bake that for awhile after initial dry time. Maybe someone can suggest something like tsp to reduce the surface tension of the bubbles (or not- I'm no chemist): I do have a lot of experience with various coatings on different surfaces. Have you gotten your carb. back from your mechanic yet?

Paint and fogger to help hydrogen release or reduce foam crawling up... I'm not sure about that, but will be good if it works which can benefit everybody.

About my carburetor, hmmm... still in mechanic shop. The o-ring around injector nozzle spoilt causing more fuel dump into engine. Too much fuel causes the engine to stop. My friend who helped me to insert the injector didn't realise that he used force to insert the injector. This cause the o-ring torn and cause fuel over bleeding.

I was frustrated because I found out about the problem after made a new base for carburetor. $$$$ The engine can't even start and battery almost dry. I had to use jump start cable at the end. After replacing with newer o-ring (not the correct spec) and change new set of spark plug, engine able to start but still too much fuel enters into injector. Hopefully my mechanic able to replace the correct o-ring in these two days time.

[nismotekk]

thank you

Redmeanie,
Thanks for your response, I am trying to educate myself as much as I can on hydrogen and the production of it. I was trying to increase my gas mileage and reduce my emissions, I had not thought about a fuel conversion, is this possible? Will the gas be drawn into the motor throughout the entire RPM range? That is why i asked if the system could be pressurized. I have used EFIE devices before, I have used APEXI products as a piggyback system to my ECU. Those devices interrupt the signal from the MAF to the ECU. Their device tells the ECU that there is more or less air coming in than actually is. The system is totally user tunable.Would that work on this system? Or would you need an o2 device? Also, are these systems safe to install for others? Is there an approximate number of people using using "boosters"? How long have you guys been using them safely? Thank you for any imput, Chris

[Redmeanie]

Redmeanie,
Thanks for your response, I am trying to educate myself as much as I can on hydrogen and the production of it. I was trying to increase my gas mileage and reduce my emissions, I had not thought about a fuel conversion, is this possible? Will the gas be drawn into the motor throughout the entire RPM range? That is why i asked if the system could be pressurized. I have used EFIE devices before, I have used APEXI products as a piggyback system to my ECU. Those devices interrupt the signal from the MAF to the ECU. Their device tells the ECU that there is more or less air coming in than actually is. The system is totally user tunable.Would that work on this system? Or would you need an o2 device? Also, are these systems safe to install for others? Is there an approximate number of people using using "boosters"? How long have you guys been using them safely? Thank you for any imput, Chris

Chris,
Go to this link it is to this subject being addressed here in this forum....It is a couple of posts down but you will see it....I answered this very question for Ghahi Ghato and its a bunch to retype!

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...foulers-3.html

As far as needing to be pressurized, the HHO will have pressure behind it as it is produced along with the Vacuum from the intake through the throttle body it is plenty to get the job done....Under NO circumstances should you store HHO gas.....This is a VERY volatile gas when in this state because of the Oxygen present along with it....Now if you are talking about separating the gases, it can and has been done. But this is not an easy step and is useless to even try for a "Booster". And by ALL Means Keep asking the questions because that is THE ONLY Way you will learn, especially on this subject!
They don't teach this stuff at College!

[Jetijs]

Since because of a coincidence the next five days are holidays in my country, I will not be able to get the self aligning bearings for my attraction motor, so I decided to test out the bubbler design I showed some posts earlier. Must say, this design works very well. In an event of flashback, the cap just flies away and I can use it again (of course if I find it ). The cap fits in the PVC tubr very tightly, nevertheless, if I press my thumb on the output tube, the pressure builds up and the cap slowly comes off. That is why I made two videos, the first one shows that the plumbing pipe material is flexible enough and can withstand the explosion. And the other video shows that you can hold the cap in place by using duct tape so that it can withstand greater pressures and still, if a flashback happens, the cap just flies off and everything works fine. I made several such explosions, the bubbler is still working fine. It is just that the cap shoots up so far in the sky, that it is hard to find the cap afterwards I found the cap mostly on the roof of the 2 story building
Lots of fun, enjoy
YouTube - Poor man's bubbler testing
YouTube - Poor man's bubbler testsing part 2

[Jetijs]

Today I payed around some more. Did some more flash back explosions and eventually my poor man's bubbler design cracked on the bottom side. That is because the plumbing plastic is not flexible enough.
I also attached the HHO torch to the electrolyzer, but I was surprised to see that the flame is almost 2x smaller than with my previous design. That is weird, because this design should be superior to that I had before. My first electrolyzer had also some neutral plates, the current design does not. Previous design ran on 27V 20A, this one runs on 12V 20A. If I press off the torch tip with my thumb and let the pressure to build up for a while an then ignite the hho, I get a large beautiful flame for some seconds, but then as the pressure goes down, the flame becomes shorter. What could be the problem?

[ashtweth]

Jetijs great videos, i have added that to the write up to simulate what a pop off cap should do,so hopefully we can save some one from questioning its power, man that remindeds me of when we did to that balloon to show what NOT to do with hydroxy..it ain't a toy

[Jetijs]

If really need cheap and fast hydrogen production without building a proper cell, then I would to suggest to use KOH or NaOH with aluminium cans. I did this experiment sometime ago. Just pour a little bit of KOH into stainless steel container then add aluminum pieces or softdrink aluminum can. The reaction (vigorous) between chemical and aluminum produces hydrogen.

I don't know how dangerous this gas is to our health if inhale but the reaction between aluminum can and chemical produces lots of gas for nearly 20 minutes. Electrolyte and stainless steel container gets super hot to touch. I read somewhere that one person uses this method to test run his car. One aluminium can, gives 5 mile drive. Not bad uhhh....

This sounds so interesting, that today I made a short video about how the KOH solution and aluminum reacts together. The gas production is very impressive See for yourself:
YouTube - Aluminum in KOH solution

Now, there are some questions. It is obvious that water and aluminum is consumed in this reaction. But what happens to KOH? Is it also being consumed? How much gas can be created with a certain amount of aluminum? How toxic is this gas?

I am not strong in chemistry, maybe someone could clarify this? I could try to fill a 2l bottle with this gas and then just weight the aluminum piece and see how much it is now lighter than before, this could hive us some useful info. I mean, aluminum costs about 1$ a KG in a scrapyard, that is a little less than one liter gas costs. If we can get enough gas out of one kg of aluminum to run the car for more kilometers than with one liter of gas, then this could be an experiment worth doing. Of course, the motor conversion to run fully of hydrogen would be expensive and difficult, but maybe we could use this just as a booster
Thanks
Jetijs

[garrydb]

Dreamer

Jetijs, Good work. I saw a pop-off valve made by cutting a hole in a lid, coving the jar with saranwrap (possible most any plastic wrap will do), then screw the lid with the hole down on it. Works great. Only pressure adjustment might be thickness of wrap or maybe number of layers. Good idea though. Though I'd let you know.. Keep plodding,

[Jetijs]

garrydb,
you mean such ones?
YouTube - The BIG BRICK Safety BlowOut Test

I agree, this is much simpler and cheaper. Also as far as I know, that type of plastic is more flexible. I will try that out soon
Thanks,
Jetijs

[Redmeanie]

garrydb,
you mean such ones?
YouTube - The BIG BRICK Safety BlowOut Test

I agree, this is much simpler and cheaper. Also as far as I know, that type of plastic is more flexible. I will try that out soon
Thanks,
Jetijs

little more durable plastic that will function the same and holds up well to KOH environment is a Transparency used in printing or Ziploc Freezer bag material.

[TuxAir]

Was that a slip joint like you would use on a trap for a sink? Definitely in line with the KISS principle. Better than the tethered pop off cap I was coming up with.

[kumaran]

Hi Jetijs,

Today I payed around some more. Did some more flash back explosions and eventually my poor man's bubbler design cracked on the bottom side. That is because the plumbing plastic is not flexible enough.
I also attached the HHO torch to the electrolyzer, but I was surprised to see that the flame is almost 2x smaller than with my previous design. That is weird, because this design should be superior to that I had before. My first electrolyzer had also some neutral plates, the current design does not. Previous design ran on 27V 20A, this one runs on 12V 20A. If I press off the torch tip with my thumb and let the pressure to build up for a while an then ignite the hho, I get a large beautiful flame for some seconds, but then as the pressure goes down, the flame becomes shorter. What could be the problem?

Previous design uses 27V x 20A = 540W while current design uses 12V x 20A = 240W (less than half of power consumption compared to previous design). By right your cell should produce same amount of gas production on both design because amps are same.

Are you sure there is no gas leakage at cell or bubbler? To do this just submerge the whole cell into bucket of water. Turn on the power and close the gas outlet. Wait till some gas pressure builds up inside enclosed cell and see if any gas leakage happens or not. If there is then try to fix it by tightening the clamping nut. Do the same with bubbler submerge into water bucket.

Did you use the old electrolyte (conditioning electrolyte) or prepare new batch for operation? Must use new batch for operation.

Touch the power connection point (electrode and power cable). If any heat generated, then you are losing power as heat. Heat power consider a loss and never put for real use. Use bigger wire and connection point. I use 10mm wire for my cell. The wire can withstand 46A max.

Most important, can you measure gas output (LPM). Just curious to know. For 20A and with true series cell, your cell should produce at least 2LPM or more. Remember the formula (0.25W per sqr inch). For example, 6" x 6" = 36 sqr inches. 36 x 0.25 = 9A. So the maximum amount of amps should use for 6" x 6" plates series cell design is 9 amps (optimum). If push too much of amps then the power wasted as heat.

[Jetijs]

Hi Kumaran
Thank you for your suggestions.
The electrolyte was new with about 15 - 20% KOH. I submerged the cell under water and connected to the power. There were some small bubbles from the electrolysis outside the cell, but you can easily tell the difference if the bubbles are from the electrolysis or if they are from the leakage in the cell. There was some minor leakage in the refilling part and that appeared only at greater pressures, but then I screwed the cap tighter and there was no leakage anymore. Then I tested the LPM. I took a 5l bollte and filled it with water, then submerged it and let it fill with the gas. It filled only in 3 minutes 30 seconds. That is 1.43 LPM. The amps were the same - 20A and the voltage across each 6-cell section was exactly 12V (I measured this with a voltmeter, the power supply voltage was 12.7). This all gives an efficiency of 84%. Too bad. I don't get it, how could that be? The connectors and the wires are not getting warm. Could it maybe be that the plate spacing is too close? So that the bubbles have a hard time climbing up to the electrolyte surface? Maybe I need to try 4mm vinyl as a spacer? I am confused