All about electrolysers, HHO, joecells ect. :)

[Alex S]

Hey guys, here is an update on my HHO gen.

Here is three of the seven cells



The plates are 304 stainless 4" x 9" 18g

I sanded the plates horizontal then vertical



I also threw together a test cell for fun.



How come when i turn it on the negative gets very hot and starts to melt?


I haven't found any thing to build the container out of yet, any suggestions?

Does everything look ok thus far?

Thanks,

Alex

[Lemontree]

Electrolyser with separate cells:

Hallo!
there can be design with container, i will suggest to use plexiglass. draw a blueprint with all needed pieces in needed sizes and go to 'adwertissement materials' workshop, where plexiglass will be cutted in your's specified sizes. later you can glue them togeather using dihlorethane (CH2CL2)
but also there can be design that did not use any casing at all

there is container from 8mm thick plexiglas, and assambled with stainless steel plates, can be seen in attachments. also, with distancers from white eraser rubber it has 10 cellls, and 3 steel plates in each cell, but if you want to make separated cells, it will be better consider how much cells will work most effective, to get 1,47V on each cell. there are great importance of electrolyte density (i used KOH with destilled water) the more gap - the more must be density. also, if electrolyzer draws too much Amperes, than electrolyte can bee made poorer.
but this design has some problems - low efficiency because not all of surfaces are used. and dangerous risk of little electric spark, between connectors and plates, it is not safe left electric connections abowe water line, or if, they must be solid and welded, so no spark can happen.

there in pictures you can see exploded bubbler, this was made from plexiglass, it exploded because of too weak gass flow through the torch nozzle, so, flame speed excess gas flow speed, and get into torch, where it heat bronze wool, and some seconds later, heat gets through bronze wool, and bang, there goes shivers of bubbler
last two files are about computer atx power supply, that can be used for electrolysis, because psu have 12V dc, and about 30Amps if two of 12V lines joined togeather (simply take all yellow wires as (+) and all black wires as (-) ground) there will be instruction how to correctly power on atx psu.

the effectiveness in this case, can be wery good if made properly. but there was some faults with my setup, lack of ampere meter and so on...

i am sorry for ruining your reading pleasure with my bad english...

[Lemontree]

Electrolyser with all cells in a row:

so, the next test setup was all 30 plates in one row, and (almost) watertight sealing between them, so, in space betveen every two plates must be an active cell. this design is even better than separate cells, because there are much less non-active sides. there are 24 cells, with 48 active plate sides, only two last ones are not taking place in electrolysis. this makes active area of 1,7square meters.
- but separate cells - there where 10 cells, with two plates, two sides were inactive in every cell, summary 20 inactive sides or only 0,58square meter active area.

this electrolyzer is even smaller than old one. in pictures can be seen wiring shematics, all 24 cells are divided to 4 sections, with 6 cells in each, that make 2V in each cell, if using a computer psu. but there died my psu, because strange thing happened in electrolyser - the cells where not absolutely watertight, so electrolyte can bypass between small gaps in policarbonate distancer. also, there where no hho producing, even no one bubble in bubbler
i think, that electricity flow directly by easy way, not throug steel plates, this resulted an oveload for psu, too much amperes draw. so psu powered down, and created some smell.

this cell design are from Yull Brown's patent drawings found in wikipedia, in HHO article. i think, if i would make correct watertight sealing betveen plates, this design ought to be effective and good working.

last pictures - there were some accidental explosion, but no harmful, because of using this yellow plastic cup, for bubbler, it explodes, but it is easy restored - just take another cup, and seal it with electric tape (red) white cup with blue cower is just second bubbler for additional safety, and KOH recovery from wather vapour what comes togeather with hho gas.
but explosion, even with so small amount of gas, and so thin and light plastic cup as a bubbler are loud enough, to make anybody nervous

[Lemontree]

Design that worked best:

the first picture is schematic view. metal plates are pressed betveen two plexiglass plates, joined togeather with screws. rubber seal between plates, are handmade cut, from large black ruber sheet, about 3mm thick. assembling was surprisingly fast and easy. of course, the best thing of all, is that it WORKS! at least, it draws ~25 amperes, and i fed it from old car battery approx ~11-12V. the gas production was awesome bubbler bubbled loud and joyfully
now im considering about using more stainless steel plates, to make more powerful gas production, to get good stable gass flow enough for making a good hho flame.

at the end, i suggest this type of electrolyser for everybody, because
1) it works wery well
2) building is easy and fast, and without tricky machinery.
3) there are no dangerous issues - there can not rise spark inside hho generator because of bad wiring joints.
4) wiring and connection are wery easy and safe, with normal wire connectors, and easy to change different wiring shematics, you can divide electrolyser by 4 sections with 3 cells in each, or one section with 12 cells, without even opening cover and touching the electrolyte
only one hard work - to drill one 10mm hole in each stainless steel plate's top (for gas outcoming, and electrolyte filling)

in first test setup, KOH was about ~1:10 or less. there are 5 plates, 4 cells. 12 volts - 3 volts on one cell. to get needed power - not overload, and not too less, you can easily change electrolyte, adding more water or more koh, to get needed electrical conductivity, that the electrolyser will draw exactly the same amount of power needed to not overload psu. also, it is worth trying to get (in many sources claimed) best effeciveness when amp draw are max but voltage on cell don't exceed much over 1,47V.

and, if you make more sections with some cells in them, remember that if they are connected paralell - the resistance of hho generator gets low, and more amps can be drawn, and there must be taken care for the power supply.

my apologies for awful grammar

[Jetijs]

at the end, i suggest this type of electrolyser for everybody, because
1) it works wery well
2) building is easy and fast, and without tricky machinery.
3) there are no dangerous issues - there can not rise spark inside hho generator because of bad wiring joints.
4) wiring and connection are wery easy and safe, with normal wire connectors, and easy to change different wiring shematics, you can divide electrolyser by 4 sections with 3 cells in each, or one section with 12 cells, without even opening cover and touching the electrolyte

I agree to that and since I have seen this setup IRL, I am considering building one for myself.
Thank you

[rangerbentman]

perplexed by plexy

Aside from looking at the zillions of bubbles coming off the plates would abs or some other plastic suffice for the box? I figure if you try this out with the top off then you already know by the time you have finished tinkering with the solution and plate setup that you can ignore what it looks like and get on with melting rocks and astonishing sceptics.
Correct me if I am wrong or missing something here.

[adam ant]

i know i read the answer to my question before, but can AC be used from the wall directly to a cell? im asking for making the torch. if i wanted one just for the shop, i didnt need/want to use a 12 volt battery, how could i safely utilize the wall without overdrawing current and maximizing gas output?

[Lemontree]

AC for welding hho generator:

Hallo!
you must convert AC to DC current, using some absolutely not pricey stuff - it contain diode (actually i dont know exactly what it is and its name in english) but in any electronic parts shop you can ask for something like this. note that this will be NOT a transformer. a transformer will be less effective, will generate more heat from electricity used.

also, there must be at least 50 cells in electrolyser, to get about ~2Volts for each cell. In my country, the problem are bigger - ordinary current is 220V (50hz ac) so if wanted to build an enlectrolyser, there must be at least 80-90 cells, and of curse, additionally this simply and cheap device which converts AC to DC. some other member will know better - about this device needed.

about plexiglass - i used it, because i saw Jetijs hho generator, also made from plexiglass, and this material is known to be KOH and electrolysis proof, strong enough, and very easy glued, if parts are in correct sizes.

[kumaran]

Hi Lemontree,

Very nice work .

In your last posting you mentioned about using black rubber sheet for cell spacer. KOH and NaOH are very nasty stuff. These two chemicals can corrode most of materials like rubber, glue, bronze and so on. My advice is mix some strong electrolyte (KOH or NaOH) and pour into glass container. Drop what ever material you need to use in your design into this electrolyte and leave for overnight.

The next day check the properties of the material. Some material like black rubber will start discoloration. This will make the electrolyte contaminated during electrolysis and the cell efficiency drops. For cell spacer, you may use vinyl (used in industrial refrigerator) to seal cold air. I find most of metals either react to KOH or NaOH (aluminium, nickel) to release hydrogen and other poisonous gas or starts to corrode (bronze, brass and so on).

Hopefully the above suggestions can help you to improve your electrolyser design. You may refer to my project page at links below :

1) 8 plate series cell
2) 13 plate series cell

[Lemontree]

Kumaran - thanks a lot for advice! also, it was pleasure to see your project! sorry for not refering to your project, somehow i saw this setup long time before, and even forget about it, that time it seemed to bee too complicated for me
i will try to find some vinyl sheet. of course, i am not shure about this black rubber, because it is not already correctly tested, only few days it is assembled, so, will see, how it behaves

i want to suggest not to drill each plate for screw inserting, but end without full plexiglass enclosure, just screwed plates togeather and gas output on one plexiglass side. i think it is a good idea to save/economize the time and effort, and also materials without loosing much of qualities. because, it is not easy to drill a lot of holes into 1mm thick stainless steel, even with proper instruments.

Jetijs - this was your's idea, to test the "screwed plates" design

________
Kumaran - nice idea to put all electrolyser in plastic container, also i had become a bit nerous, after several explosions, so safety precaution os always a good idea. i am thinking of using some face shield, like woodworkers use, but who knows, is it really necessary, or it is just nervous thoughts

[adam ant]

the device you are describing is a bridge rectifier. converts ac to dc.
i have a few of them now, but i wanted to make sure that AC couldnt be used.


is there a way to limit the current draw so i dont pop a breaker. my breakers are 20amp rated.

[kumaran]

Hi Lemontree,

i want to suggest not to drill each plate for screw inserting, but end without full plexiglass enclosure, just screwed plates togeather and gas output on one plexiglass side. i think it is a good idea to save/economize the time and effort, and also materials without loosing much of qualities. because, it is not easy to drill a lot of holes into 1mm thick stainless steel, even with proper instruments.

I have reason for doing in this way. If you see 8 plate series cell link, I did exactly like you said. When the pressure increase (over pressure), leakage can happen from vinyl sheet because no support at centre of the cell. Also, you need to find suitable size nylon tube to seal place where threaded bolt goes through. Experience from 8 plate series cell, I made changes in 13 plate series cell to drill holes on each plates and vinyl sheet.

Yes, its time consuming process but worth in the end. I use three diffrent drill bits to make single hole onto SS plate. Now I can tighten the nuts more to make no gas or electrolyte leak from drilled hole. No matter how much pressure builds up inside electrolyser casing, no electrolyte leakage will happen from vinyl sheet electrolyte seal . Another advantage is I can reduce electrolyser size a bit.

Kumaran - nice idea to put all electrolyser in plastic container, also i had become a bit nerous, after several explosions, so safety precaution os always a good idea. i am thinking of using some face shield, like woodworkers use, but who knows, is it really necessary, or it is just nervous thoughts

No matter what, safety comes first. Use softdrink bottle (coke bottle) as safety bubbler. Do not use hard plastic. You check some exploded bubbler made from hard plastic in 8 plate series cell link. If you want to use homemade flashback arrestor (like you are using right now), make it after softdrink bubbler.

You need to use longer bronze fine wool container. This could be the cause of explosion happens where the fire by passed your homemade flashback arrestor. You know what, when I first tested hydroxy torch, I wear full face helmet as precausion. My hands were shivering to during torch lighting. After that enjoy the success.

[Lemontree]

Adam ant - decreasing amperes draw can be made easy - at first, made very poor electrolyte, and test setup, looking at ampere meter. than, if you need more amperage, you can add more concentrated electrolyte (more KOH in water). at my first test i made too strong electrolyte, when i connected electrolyser to battery, huge sparks appeard, even if i connected ground as last. so, i made 2times less concentrated electrolyte, and then sparks were very small, and apmere meter shows about 30A, what soon drops to stable 25A (when electrolyte escaped from too everfilled electrolyser (screwed plates design))

Kumaran - yes, i noticed today that the black rubber gets dissolve in koh, so, there is need to find the vinyl sheets... i agree, that if screws are through plates, than it can be assembled and tightened much stronger, what is good, because of preventing leakage.
is these vinyl sheets the same, that are used as an example, in kitchens doors, or in refrigerator rooms doors, when such a doors lets easily pass through people with stuff, but stops circulating air between two rooms? it seems not easy way to find them in Latvia. but will see....

[kumaran]

Hi Lemontree,

is these vinyl sheets the same, that are used as an example, in kitchens doors, or in refrigerator rooms doors, when such a doors lets easily pass through people with stuff, but stops circulating air between two rooms? it seems not easy way to find them in Latvia. but will see....

Yes. Looks like you are going to have problem like me. Definetely there will be a supplier for Vinyl in your country. The question is where? Here in Malaysia, shop owners don't trust internet marketing but trust YellowPages more to advertise thier business. Most of shop owners do not know scientific name for the materials we asked for. Worst will be like they ask us to bring sample so that they could search for it. I think in Europe, you can always buy materials from internet. Just search for vinyl sheet from your favourite online shopping site and you can find some.

Some seal material will not show incompatibility on chemical immediately. When the electrolyte gets warm or hot then leakage starts to happen. Plexiglas (acrylic) compatible with KOH. Polycarbonate compatible with NaOH. Not the other way round. Lucky members from oupower.com did extensive test on some materials and list down chemical compatibility. This makes my job easier.

[Alex S]

Some seal material will not show incompatibility on chemical immediately. When the electrolyte gets warm or hot then leakage starts to happen. Plexiglas (acrylic) compatible with KOH. Polycarbonate compatible with NaOH. Not the other way round. Lucky members from oupower.com did extensive test on some materials and list down chemical compatibility. This makes my job easier.

So Polycarbonate is not compatible with KOH?