All about electrolysers, HHO, joecells ect. :)

[kumaran]

Hi Ashtweth,

Yes, I'm the same person. I use my real name in all the forums. Well, I can't access many forum sites like yahoogroup, googlegroup and so on from my work place. I have no choice but to ask questions which ever forum I'm active at the moment.

[theremart]

Helpful document.

Hi Jetijs,

I need some advice on method to adjust lean mixture for carburetored car. During engine idling (without hydroxy), should I adjust the fuel to lean until engine starts choking. Do I need to adjust spark timing? How?

See the attached document, may be of help to you.

[kumaran]

See the attached document, may be of help to you.

Hi,

The document doesn't provide infon on tuning air/fuel ratio to run on hydroxy. I prefer series cell for electrolyser.

[ashtweth]

kumaran, try this
http://www.panaceauniversity.org/D17.pdf
Then this at the bottom.
http://www.panaceauniversity.org/D9.pdf

Send me an email and ill Ask Bob directly.

[kumaran]

Hi Ashtweth,

I can find many reference for fuel injection with O2 sensor to lean fuel but almost none for carburetored car. I'm looking for specific info on how to lean fuel on carburetored engine to run with hydrogen assist.

[ashtweth]

Hi kumaran, ill ask the Hydroxy group direct for you. sorry man i was under the impression you were trying to use an EFFIE.

[Redmeanie]

Kumaran,
The "proper way" to do this will require an EGT but I will give you a little "BackYard ShadeTree Mechanic" way to do this.....

However you are doing this at your own Risk! (disclaimer)

First off always run this through a bubbler or two! Im asuming you know this already....Next since you are carburated going directly into the intake manifold is best, It will use the HHO more efficiently.....
Always make the run from your booster to the manifold as short as "safely" possible.... Also while calibrating this keep in mind the "Booster" will take a few moments to get up to operating output.

Ok....On to the steps (assuming you have done the above and have a reliable design wired to a relay operated with the "FUEL PUMP" (if its electric if not find a component that ONLY GETS POWER WHEN THE IGNITION IS ON not in accessory)

1) Start your engine without the booster (stock)
2) Using a Bar B Que Thermometer (Hi Heat Probe) "get a base temperature" at the tailpipe by putting the probe end fully into the tail pipe. Use the little stand attached to it to hold the probe off of the metal of the tail pipe so you are reading the exhaust gas temperature only and not the tailpipes temp.
*At Idle and at least 2 higher RPM's preferably Mid and High
3) Note your base temps
4) Lean the carburetor down one 1/4 turn at a time ( you will notice the temp rise as it leans out )
5) Turn on your booster. remove the thermometer temporarily and allow it to cool before reinserting it.
6) Make minute adjustments to the carburetor as above until your temp is back in the "Base Range" that you took earlier. Be sure to let the thermometer cool between readings.
7) Once you have found that "Sweet Spot" adjust the Carburetor back out about a quarter of a turn to the "RICH" direction. This give you a bit of a safety margine.
9) Test Drive
If you notice poor performance or noises you have a problem.

Occasionally check the Base Temps to verify you are still good to go.... Keep in mind if this is a new electrolyzer its performance will change... So if it were me I would install a permanant EGT Gauge that You could continually read and monitor.

You should be able to "SAFELY" cut at least 30% with a good design...

Its late so if Im missing something I will look over this again and add to it during the day but this should give you some idea.....

[kumaran]

Hi Redmeanie,

That was very useful information so far. Thank you very much, I appreciate it. People never mentioned about measuring temp at exhause tail gas. I will use your guideline to adjust carb settings and test run. I'm afaid I can't test my car this weekend as its election day in my country (Malaysia). But I can do the initial testing like temp measurement before and after carb adjust.

About my electrolyser (series cell), so far it does perform good for about 1.5 hours test run. Amps draw starts with 18A and when the electrolyte gets warm nearly end of testing period, the amps draw nearly 30A. With just 21A, my electrolyser able to produce 1.89 LPM. So with 30A I guest the electrolyser is producing about 2.5 LPM or more of hydroxy.

I have no issues of on producing good amount of hydroxy with my electrolyser. The issue is I'm too dumb when comes to car engine. Always depend on mechanic to troubleshoot problems so not much we learn from them. Hand on is the best teacher.

[Jetijs]

Hi all
I have came up with a good "poor mans" bubbler design. I use cheap plumbing tubes which are wider in one side. The wide side has an rubber O ring inside so that you can stick two such tubes together or you can simply plug the wider end shut with apropriate cap. I used two caps for each tube and melted one cap with the tube thiner end with an soldering iron, then I reinforced the metring area with some glasfieber tape and epoxy resin. I simply plugged the other cap in the wider end of the tube. Then I did some drilling and threading work and inserted the gas inlets on each side. The beauty of this design is that it is cheap and if there will be an explosion, the small cap will simply fly off the wider end of the tube. It goes in rather hard so it will be able to handle some good working pressure, but in the event of explosion, it will just pop off. The material from which these tubes are made of, is soft and should not shatter. Will see how it performs.


(in the picture the melted area is just covered wit an insulating tape, no glassfieber is applied yet)

Thank you,
Jetijs.

[ashtweth]

For kumaran

HI Kumaran, i have three different emails for you so will post this here for you.
(Can you send me an email for future please man?)

These are the answers i got back from the Hydroxy group.

"On most carburetors you adjust air fuel mixture with the needle valves which are
controlled by screws in the base of the carb. This is not the same as a throttle
body which has injector in the top of the unit. Without knowing what brand and
mod no. of the carb, I can not give exact details of the adjustments. (1, 2, or
4 barrel carb etc.) air fuel mix is controlled by these needle valves and the
opening of the butterfly type flaps on the air intake of the carb.

Timing is another issue. As you are only boosting you probably will not need
much timing adjustment, however you may get some improvement by advanceing the
timeing a few degrees depending on how much boost you are doing. On carburated
vehicles this is almost always done by rotating the distributor while observing
a timing light attached to the no. 1 plug wire. Your standard timing may be
around 6 degrees before top dead center (TDC) moving it closer to TDC may
prevent back flashes and give performance improvements, however the % of hydroxy
you are adding to the fuel mix will determine how much advance will help. You
may just have to go by the sound of the motor, and how it does when you press
the accelerator.

If you are going to change your timing, I recommend you have a cylinder head
temp gauge and keep a close watch on the temp.

Hope this helps.



Thanks for your insight Pm, but am i missing something, or why do you want the
timing advanced? Most people who are going to use a big amount of Hydroxy retard
the timing. No?

Grts
Bruno M.



Hi there. First of all you have to watch how you hook up to the intake manifold.
You want to hook it up to a ported vacuum source above the throttle plates. I'm
just learning about this now. It has to do with the boiling point of water when
under a vacuum. There are other posts on the forum about this that will be
helpful. Adjusting the idle screws won't do anything because this setup is
designed to work at off idle speeds, but feel free to adjust for your best lean
idle mix anyway. What year is the car? Just because it is carbureted doesn't
mean that there is not an O2 sensor. There are plenty of feedback carbs out
there that are computer controlled and will have the same reaction as EFI
systems. I currently drive an 86 Toyota Trecel with a feedback carb. I am trying
to find a way to modify my spare carb to work with hydroxy and then install it
when the time comes. If your friend just has a non computerized carb, then
you'll have to contact a speed shop or hunt the junkyards for a smaller set of
jets to lean down to. The only way to find out which is best is to experiment
until it runs at the most efficient level during cruise speeds. That usually is
fromm 1500 to 3500 rpm in most 4cyl cars. Keep us posted
Jon

As far as spark timing, it can be advanced a little since hydroxy kicks out high
octane. In most cases you loosen the distributor and give it a little turn to
increase rpm. A little is good, but a lot is not better. Check with the Honda
manual, or Honda dealer first. Also don't be afraid to tell them what you are
doing. I'm sure they'll be interested in the technology and help spread the
news.


2 main things you must do:
1) adjust timing, it has to be retarded to achive maximum efficiency, this is
best done by a qualified mechanic

2)you should not physically have to lean out the fuel at all, with a carburetted car it is already tuned and if you lean it (by say putting a smaller main jet in) it can cause serious damadge, its basically adding more fuel and a perfect fuel at that (already has a oxydising agent so no air has to be added) so its
completely automatic, it means you dont have to use as much pedal to achive the same result (= less fuel used), when i have some time tomorrow i will post a more detailed explanation of this (it's getting late and i have to get up early) but for now your best bet on saving fuel is getting the timing adjusted.. that
will affect it heaps.



I believe you'd just tune to the best vacuum, correct? Try a search on "vacuum gauge tune carburator"

[Redmeanie]

Before you do any of the above seriously do some research into "How a Combustion Engine" functions..... You are being bombarded with so many off the wall suggestions that I almost can't believe what Im reading.....
Im not going to point out specifics but at least two of the above "Suggestions" could not be more "WRONG" and especially in just a "Boosted" vehicle....

You should NEVER mess with timing while you are just boosting for less fuel
consumption, altering timing only needs to be done if you are shooting for more than 50%....Then you will run into allot more problems than just Timing!

This is one reason why Im hesitant to post the step by step I was going to post because then we will have all these people coming in and giving "Bad" advice. Then by the time its been up for a week or two it will be so confusing to people trying to understand what not to do and what to do its almost not worth it.

Just please do some research, It is totally possible to do "Yourself". If you are smart enough to have gotten as far as you have on this, the proper way to tune a car is seriously within your reach, and tuning is all you need to do to get better mileage with a booster, not radical changes. Just like J-spec engine ecu's run different fuel maps than there USDM models. Its not because they are that drastically different it is because of the Octane fuel they are running generally 97 or 100 here were lucky if we are really getting 93 in our supreme and 87 in Regular.
Now what has been proven? Higher octane fuel generally equals better gas mileage fewer emissions because of better and more complete combustion....Well a Booster does just that INCREASES the Octane of the fuel you are using, well over 100 this allows you to subtract some of the Fossil Fuel you are using because you are getting the same amount of combustion with less fuel. Thats the benefit of Hydroxy Gas Boosters. So technically you are not leaning out the engine per se, but you are leaning out the Fossil Fuel and replacing it with Hydroxy....That is why the exhaust temp is so critical! To hot means you leaned out more fuel than your Booster can make up for. Thats why you want your base temps taken from your stock engine before you mess with anything. Keep it in that range or even better, Cooler and you are good. Stray out of that safety range and shame on you.
30% is a safe reasonable target.

Oh and if I even looked into a EGT setup that has everything that you should need at a REALLY decent price here:
eBay Motors: PERFORMANCE EXHAUST EGT TEMPERATURE TEMP 2" GAUGE 52mm (item 280206555686 end time Mar-12-08 20:48:08 PDT)


By the way I have no ties to whoever that is selling that I was just looking out for everyone here!

[Redmeanie]

Hi Redmeanie,

That was very useful information so far. Thank you very much, I appreciate it. People never mentioned about measuring temp at exhause tail gas. I will use your guideline to adjust carb settings and test run. I'm afaid I can't test my car this weekend as its election day in my country (Malaysia). But I can do the initial testing like temp measurement before and after carb adjust.

About my electrolyser (series cell), so far it does perform good for about 1.5 hours test run. Amps draw starts with 18A and when the electrolyte gets warm nearly end of testing period, the amps draw nearly 30A. With just 21A, my electrolyser able to produce 1.89 LPM. So with 30A I guest the electrolyser is producing about 2.5 LPM or more of hydroxy.

I have no issues of on producing good amount of hydroxy with my electrolyser. The issue is I'm too dumb when comes to car engine. Always depend on mechanic to troubleshoot problems so not much we learn from them. Hand on is the best teacher.

Im glad to see you taking the initiative to learn on your own, And yes hands on is the only way to learn for me!

I have tuned a couple of cars now almost completely using the EGT. It is the most trusted way to adjust AF Ratios in performance cars. I have done ALLOT of "HANDS ON" research into this subject solely! Ive learned that a narrow band O2 is useless to try and tune a vehicle, and even a wide band is not exact but an Exhaust Temp Reading DOES NOT LIE!
Why do you think prop driven aircraft use EGT's to adjust there mixture? Must say something about how reliable the reading is correct....

If I can Help you in any way let me know....Im not sure how different things are in Malaysia but I am very familiar with the J-Spec set-ups and Ausy setups also so Im pretty sure the cars imported into Malaysia are one of those types.

[ashtweth]

Got this also

Kumaran does not say what approximate lpm he is getting from his electrolyser. No timing adjustment will be needed for lpm volumes under 2.5 (or possibly 3) lpm of hydroxy gas,

I'm not an automotive expert, but I understand that you restrict the fuel flow through a carburettor by fitting a smaller sized jet. S1r does the reverse by fitting a jet two sizes larger to increase the water flow through his carburettor into his very large engine.
-end

[kumaran]

Hi guys,

First with electrolyser off to take base millage readings : 7.74L/100KM (0%)

Second test with electrolyser on and gas goes into air intake : 7.09L/100KM (8.78%)

Third test with electrolyser on and gas goes into intake manifold : 6.90L/100KM (10.81%)

Fourth test with electrolyser on and gas goes into intake manifold after lean mixture : 7.29L/110KM (14.18%)

Still not a good result. I did turn fuel knob clock wise until the engine starts choking. Then adjust the air intake screw to bring up the engine idle speed to 750 rpm. I think I have adjusted to almost maximum lean mixture before the test run.

Other question, why after the test run complete, I notice the engine idle speed were 1500 rpm to 1750 rpm. Is this normal for carburetored cars? Or something wrong with carburetor?

During my last test run, the electrolyser just pulls about 25A maximum at the end of the run. I mixed only 3% KOH and not 5% KOH as before to reduce amps draw. At 25A the electrolyser should be able to produce above 2LPM of gas.

Redmeanie, I took engine exhaust gas temperature after lean the fuel. The temperature shows around 100 degree celcius. Is it too high?

[Redmeanie]

Hi guys,

First with electrolyser off to take base millage readings : 7.74L/100KM (0%)

Second test with electrolyser on and gas goes into air intake : 7.09L/100KM (8.78%)

Third test with electrolyser on and gas goes into intake manifold : 6.90L/100KM (10.81%)

Fourth test with electrolyser on and gas goes into intake manifold after lean mixture : 7.29L/110KM (14.18%)

Still not a good result. I did turn fuel knob clock wise until the engine starts choking. Then adjust the air intake screw to bring up the engine idle speed to 750 rpm. I think I have adjusted to almost maximum lean mixture before the test run.

Other question, why after the test run complete, I notice the engine idle speed were 1500 rpm to 1750 rpm. Is this normal for carburetored cars? Or something wrong with carburetor?

During my last test run, the electrolyser just pulls about 25A maximum at the end of the run. I mixed only 3% KOH and not 5% KOH as before to reduce amps draw. At 25A the electrolyser should be able to produce above 2LPM of gas.

Redmeanie, I took engine exhaust gas temperature after lean the fuel. The temperature shows around 100 degree celcius. Is it too high?

One reason most likely your idle is high after you ran it for awhile is your electrolyser is putting out it's full potential and is already "warmed" up at that point. Plus you altered the factory idle settings, so now your car is running "Rich" with the excess Hydrogen.

As far as exhaust temp goes I have no idea, Every vehicle is different. If that is the "Base" temp you got without the electrolyser and running the car stock with "No" adjustments than that should be okay. I think you may have leaned it a bit much because you adjusted the idle air along with the fuel......The key here is to lower the fuel "Without" altering anything else. So I think you should put it back to "Factory" settings and ONLY adjust the fuel down slightly each time with the booster on and "FULLY" warmed up. And KEEP YOUR EXHAUST in that Base Range..... And once you have found that perfect spot adjust your Carburetor fuel about 1/4 turn back out to the "Rich" side.