All about electrolysers, HHO, joecells ect. :)

[ANTIQUER]

Hi Al, thanks for the quick reply.

Basicly, I have a 12 plate (6 cell) grid. The plates are .032 X 2.75 X 4.0"
with alternating + & - spaced at .050 and .250 from cell to cell. They are wall plates and I think they are 316 grade.

I am using backing soda for an electrolite and started with 1-1/2 teaspoon in a 4" id x 14" abs pipe.

On the last test, I changed the water and just barely coated the spoon.
Could it be that since I am using tap water, that this could be messing with me?

Also, I plan on installing this in my cummins diesel. Anyone have any luck with that?

Thank you in advance.

Scott.

Hey Scott.

Sounds like you basically have a Smack's booster.
The tap water & the plates & the baking soda are all problem items. Use distilled water, KOH instead of baking soda and get some real 316L stainless for your plates. All the wall plates I have seen are 302 grade-too many impurities. Discount Metal Whse. has it reasonably.(502-643-8326)

KOH is sold as a drain opener, sometimes labeled "instant hair clog remover". You can get it at Wal-mart, Lowe's or Home Depot.You can also use Red Devil Lye if that is easier to get. Add either one to the water slowly (1/2 tsp. at a time) and watch your volts & amp draw. Should be 8-10 amps when cold and increase to about 20 when warmed up. Don't forget to condition the plates first.

You didn't mention power supply, but if you are running raw battery power you need to get a PWM from Red Meanie. Go to his "sales info." posting.

Meantime the 3 things above should help.

Al.

[fuel_defender]

Hey Al, thank you for the direction here.
As of now, I have it hooked up to a 12V 50A battery charger.
Not sure what a smacks booster is. Also, what do you mean by conditioning the plates? And what is a PWM?

Seems that I am way behind in something that I thought I was pioneering.
Hope I am not being a pain with all of the questions.
I do believe that this is a good way to beat this fuel price thing, and it is in all of our best interest.

Scott.

[ANTIQUER]

Hey Al, thank you for the direction here.
As of now, I have it hooked up to a 12V 50A battery charger.
Not sure what a smacks booster is. Also, what do you mean by conditioning the plates? And what is a PWM?

Seems that I am way behind in something that I thought I was pioneering.
Hope I am not being a pain with all of the questions.
I do believe that this is a good way to beat this fuel price thing, and it is in all of our best interest.

Scott.

Hi! FuelDefender.

Questions are good; that's what this forum is about. Google Smack's Booster. It's an HHO cell in pvc like yours with all plans, parts list, etc. Even a picture of one mounted on a cool motorcycle.

There is a posting on this forum in the last week (by Aaron I think) with the cycle for conditioning a cell. I think Kumaran also discusses it earlier in this thread.

Basically the Pulse Wave Modulator controls the power to your cell by pulsing it. It enables you to get more HHO using less amps and reduces the heating problems. Red Meanie has a great kit for members on his "sales info." posting. If you want more details check his earlier posts.

You will probably need an EFIE and the Fuel Controller he has also when you install it in a vehicle.Sorry I don't have time right now to type it all out here; way behind due to heavy rains every day here & DSL being out constantly.

Al.

[fuel_defender]

Hi! FuelDefender.

Questions are good; that's what this forum is about. Google Smack's Booster. It's an HHO cell in pvc like yours with all plans, parts list, etc. Even a picture of one mounted on a cool motorcycle.

There is a posting on this forum in the last week (by Aaron I think) with the cycle for conditioning a cell. I think Kumaran also discusses it earlier in this thread.

Basically the Pulse Wave Modulator controls the power to your cell by pulsing it. It enables you to get more HHO using less amps and reduces the heating problems. Red Meanie has a great kit for members on his "sales info." posting. If you want more details check his earlier posts.

You will probably need an EFIE and the Fuel Controller he has also when you install it in a vehicle.Sorry I don't have time right now to type it all out here; way behind due to heavy rains every day here & DSL being out constantly.

Al.

Thanx Al, I will go back and dig a little deeper.
In reading, I also noticed that my .05 gap is way too small.

Thanx again.

Scott.

[Lemontree]

halo!
there are some update,
http://www.buildart.lv/B_art/Cukbild...Efficiency.xls
and pictures:


http://www.buildart.lv/B_art/Cukbildes/2.jpg
http://www.buildart.lv/B_art/Cukbildes/3.jpg
http://www.buildart.lv/B_art/Cukbildes/4.jpg
http://www.buildart.lv/B_art/Cukbildes/5.jpg
also one video (~2mb) where we made explosion with 5 Liters of HHO, using 5l drinking water bottle
- www.buildart.lv/B_art/Cukbildes/5l_hho_mp4.MP4

so, the main problem here is that plates are not conditoned, but test is done as it is. the hho generator with 3mm gap between plates, are with isolated plate sides above water level, isolated with paraffin, so i tested one idea to avoid electrons flow through the foam, to not activate the foam. so, there was small improvement. also gass holes was made in zig-zag pattern, to make longer path for gass flow.

what we can see, is that 10A are easily to get through elecrolyser if cells are made paralell - as example - 5 sections, each contained 6 cells. but if used only one 6cell electrolyser, the koh solution must be very strong, just to get throug ~6A. so, the fog appers, even after two bubblers, this fog is very caustic, sensible with nose, so i think this is koh vapour with hho, because koh are very concentrated. it seems that, if you have electrolyser with 2 sections connected parallell with ~6 cells in each, that you can get ~10-12A flow and ~1LPM, just enough for using for car engine.

the next thing to do is to conditon the plates, and to get somewhere ph tester, to see, how much koh gets through 2 bubblers and can pass into engine, that i think is not good for engine.

if someone there have a working hho gen, please feel free to take the *.xls file from given link, and share your results! thanks Kumaran for this nice xls efficiency calculator
as there can be seen - there is not big difference in efficiency if using more plates and greater active surface (biger hho gen), or very small surface (test with 6cells x1section) efficiency are arond the same. so, i hope to get better results after correct conditoning process

PS - also small update for useable materials - white teflon tape, what are usually used to hermetically seal water pipe joints, are not KOH durable, it slowly loses its white colour, and become transparent. seems that it can loose also its hermetizing possibilities. so there must be some suggestion, how to seal pipe joints with hho gen.

[Tishatang]

Hi All

Here is a link to an old patent. If true, you could produce maybe twice as much gas at a given power level.

Leon Sprink - Antigravity - patents

Note: You must let it run for about twenty days to condition the "neighborhood" space. The space generator only needs to be nearby. You do not need to place your hydrogen cell within the high voltage field.

Hope this helps

Chris

[Lemontree]

Hallo!
there are small update, at first i tried to find how much koh vapour gets through the bubller (used one bubbler), and tested with ph indicator paper sleeves. but it seems that koh vapour are not a big problem, so after half an hour test, water in 150ml glass did not get alkaline, it stays neutral. also i put the indicator sleeve in pipe end, where hho gass flows. also no significant changes. the only thing that is not quite clear is that if inhaled hho fog with nose it feels caustic. anyone knows how this much amount of koh can impact the engine?
other thing i made at least, is stable pipe connection to car air intake manifold, (vw passat 2,0 i 1993 runs on LPG (propane/butane gas)), connection is right after air filter, before some kind of valve. also propane connection is before this valve, so i think the valve works only in gasoline mode, but in propane mode it has no use, but it will be cleared later.
also, there were 14,3V in car, hho gen worked with 12,6V, and draw 31A, compared to earlier tests when feeded by pc psu - 11,99Von psu, 10,80V between hho gen connections, and ate only ~5A.
also i notified, that after a 30minutes of working @27A, the koh solution gets brown, so it seems like plates are starting conditoning process? the koh i changed already, for next test.
efficiency: http://buildart.lv/zz/Electrolysis_Efficiency.xls
some pictures:
http://buildart.lv/zz/h6.jpg
http://buildart.lv/zz/h1.jpg
http://buildart.lv/zz/h3.jpg
http://buildart.lv/zz/h4.jpg

[triumphdave]

just a note on your case material. my recomendation is low density polyethylene in the event of a backflash into your hho generator it will not fragment instead will most likely absorb the explosion and injection molded fittings are available for this grade of plastic. i tried pvc and had a lot of issues with sealing and. degradation in the heat of an engine bay. polyethylene is the required material for race fuel tanks so its a good choice.

[jstadwater]

Fog

Hey Lemontree,

I have seen fog coming from my cell even when using plain distilled water with no KOH added. Is it possible that what you are seeing is NOT vapor from the KOH at all? Just my thoughts out loud.

[Lemontree]

oh, thats interesting. if it is not koh vapour, than it must be water vapour, what is actually not bad, because there is also an idea to feed the water wapour in engine, to improve combustion

also, i notified, that cell gets warm, when worked ~25minutes with 12,6V and ~27Amps, at no more than 2,1volts on each cell. that means, that there can be even less voltage, untill the 1,24V as meant as absolute minimum for electrolysis? must try...

[octavian]

theoretical HHO

How much HHO would it be possible to make with about 190 KW?
It's just theoretical of course but i'm curious.
thanks.

[Lemontree]

look here. there are different efficiencies,
http://buildart.lv/zz/Electrolysis_Efficiency.xls
at first, the question is not correct, because you must mention time, not only kW, or you can mention kW hours.
with efficiency at about 87% of Faraday, i made 1 liter hho per minute using for it ~161 Watts per minute.

[octavian]

look here. there are different efficiencies,
http://buildart.lv/zz/Electrolysis_Efficiency.xls
at first, the question is not correct, because you must mention time, not only kW, or you can mention kW hours.
with efficiency at about 87% of Faraday, i made 1 liter hho per minute using for it ~161 Watts per minute.

yeah i saw that the question was inacurate when i woke up this morning... but thanks alot

[shellback]

% or pH

I do not follow the strength in percentage, it make sense if you have only liquid but how do you calculate if you have distilled water and want to add NaOH that is a solid. Is there not a method to calculate the strength By measuring the pH. I have been struggling with this for a long time.
OR
Is this just trail and error.

I built a spiral cell
2" X 48" Pos
2" X 48" Neg
My production is fantastic my amps out of control. Need to tone this baby down a lot and I feel I can do this right if my electrolyte can be gauged correctly. Using distilled and NaOH.
Please help
Shell

Hi Jetijs,
I have been following your inspiring work for some time now. Since you show some interest in electrolysis stuff, I would like to share some of my experience on high efficient low voltage electrolysis. So far I find Bob Boyce design works best for brute force (direct dc) method which could easily break Faradays law on electrolysis efficiency. In order to do that, just follow strickly on Bob's suggestion like space gap, material used, electrolyte strength and so on. Read http://www.panaceauniversity.org/D9.pdf as reference.

What electrolyte are you going to use for your cell? KOH or NaOH? KOH not suitable for polycarbonate. NaOH not suitable for acrylic. KOH performs better than NaOH in terms of LPM vs efficiency. The best cell gap for series cell is 3mm between plates. Best electrolyte strength for 3mm gap series cell is 28%(KOH) or 23%(NaOH).

Only disadvantage for series cell is on electrolyte refilling. My 8 plate series cell works very well with high efficiency rate (above 100%) and able to produce 1.2LPM using 14V and 10A. I wanted to get at least 2LPM using 12V and 10A. So now I'm focusing on pulse DC and frequency for electrolysis.

You may want to refer my hobby work on 8 plate series cell.

I feel you need very much higher strength electrolyte for each compartment since the gap is wider. Check if the cell can pass through 10A below 15V. I would suggest remain 3mm gap per cell with one neutral plate in between.

[buddy]

My first cell - what should I change?

I just found these forums and glad I did! May I ask some advice?

Just built my first hho cell. It's a rectangular plexiglass case. Inside are 12 plates, sort of like smackbooster but these differences:

12 plates instead of 16
I only used nuts in the middle and ends, so no "double" plates or "pairs"
+nnnn--nnnn+

Plates are all spaced about 3mm

I used 2 teaspoons dry NAOH for the 3.5 quarts of distilled water in it.

Powered by 12v, 10 amp battery charger.

Results so far:

I expected to have to do "conditioning", cleaning the water and re-filling a few times. But that did not happen. No scum or discoloration, even after a total of about 6 hours running.

Starts out drawing about 4-5 amps, after an hour or so up to 6-7 amps. I know I can increase NAOH to draw more amps, but first I want to get the efficiency up.

Gas production is poor, I think. Gas from the hose into the bubbler is about 3 small bubbles per second.

From the bubbler it goes through about 7 feet of more hose, to simulate the distance it will travel when I install it in my car (about 5 feet). Since I will have a second bubbler right before it goes into the car intake, I put the hose into an open 20 oz water bottle, to watch for bubbles. Result : the gas can not even push to the bottom of the hose. I can see it pushing gas about 2" down, that's all. It can run for hours like this, so - where is the hho going?!

After running about 3 hours, temperature of the electrolyte is 140 degrees. I think that's too high.

Is there a better plate arrangement, like +nn-nn+nn-nn+ ?

I'm thinking of gluing in dividers to make 2 or 3 or 4 or 6 separate compartments, would that be better? If I make , for example, 6 compartments, should I just have 2 plates in each one, or 3 (+n-) ? Or 3 compartments, and +n-n+ in each one?

Is it advisable to drill a small hole in these dividers, to keep the electrolyte level even?

I know about powering with a PWM, but what is powering with a "SSG" circuit?

Okay, Ive rambled enough. Thanks for any guidance!

Buddy