HHO For Vehicles Questions

[p10e]

Drilling Stainless Steel

If you want to save all your drill bits (on most metals) there is a waxy type of cutting lubricant you should be able to get from an industrial supply shop (ie; nuts , bolts, machine cutters) it will let you drill stainless like butter. Tip- Drill a pilot hole and then with the larger drill size drill from both sides to avoid a burr.

[pln4472]

I don't know if you guys are doing this or not. If you will take your stack of plates and put the whole stack in a vise, then use a clamp to clamp above your hole. Then when I drill, I use three bits. You need to push hard to cut stainless. You can tell when you are pushing hard enough, for it will be cutting metal. don't let the bit get to hot, every few seconds use some lube. The only deburring you will need to do is on the last plate.

The key is pushing hard enough to cut some metal. If it is not cutting it is heating up and will destroy your bit. I have did about 75 plates 304 and 316 with the same bits. Titanium high speed from harbor freight.

Marlin

[Tarkus]

My cells???

wpage and others: I make most of my electrical connections below my electrolyte level for a few reasons. 1) Serviceability, I can pull the top cap without messing with wires. 2) Spark control, never seen a spark under water ignite HHO above the water. 3) Shorter distance from outside connection to inside plates.

The large cell I posted was an experiment with such a large amount of plate area (16 tubes starting at 5.75"dia. - 1.75"dia.X 6") that my 100amp battery (jump start) charger couldn't handle it when it got warm. Gas production was impressive and scary even unconditioned. I may reconfigure the plates to cut the amperage draw. Thats my size 11+1/2 for scale.

I'll post more on other cell models as I test them.

Until then best wishes and good luck

David

[wpage]

My Smack Progress

Thanks Dave,
Heres where I am...

Laid in for fit.. Passed

Burned in plates for conditioning...
found a leak in the bubbler.

Installed today and passed initial run.

Redmeanie is shipping my EFFIE kit. Putting that on next week for final testing. So far so good!!

W

[rickoff]

Reply to wpage

I apologize for not responding sooner to your request for a picture of my Smack Booster. I have been participating in so many threads that I rarely have time to go beyond page 1 or 2 in the forums. If you, or anyone else, have any other questions, it would be a good idea to pm me to provide a link to the post where the question resides.

I did photograph my Modified Smack Booster right after building it, so it was relatively easy to convert the bmp format to a jpg file in a reduced size, which I have posted in the Public folder of my Windows Sky Drive. By the way, Sky Drive is an excellent place to post your photos and documents. You get 5 gigabytes of space for free. Here's the photo:
My Smack Booster .jpg - Windows Live SkyDrive

You can see how I modified the top cap so that the blowout device is attached at top center, and the quick-connect hose fitting comes out horizontally. The "ring" for the blowout device is simply a 1 1/4" endcap with the closed end cut from it, leaving the ring that you see. What isn't shown on the ring is that I made a fine saw cut across the diameter of the ring, to a depth that equals the width of a stainless steel hose clamp which I use to assure that the cap stays nicely in place. The cut side goes down, of course, when you place the ring on the blowout tube, and you place the ring so that it holds a double layer of plastic sandwich bag material tightly against the opening of the blowout tube. You will also notice that instead of super-gluing the bubbler to the booster (as suggested in the Smack plans), I opted to use 3/4" conduit clamps, which are made for conduit that is 1" outside diameter - same as the nylon bubbler hose. The screws holding the clamps on are stainless steel sheet metal screws (#8 x 1/2", if I remember correctly). I ground the sharp tip off each of the screws, and used a drill stop device to drill only as deep as the thickness of the bottom end cap and the top end cap adaptor, so the pvc pipe is not compromised and there are no leaks. I also later replaced the quick-connect fitting with a brass fitting because I didn't like the loose feel of the quick connect. When installing the unit in my 1998 Mazda B2500 pickup truck, there was only one place under the hood where it would have fit, and that was too crowded. It would have been very difficult to service the unit, and I didn't like the idea of installing it so close to the alternator, so I opted to install it above the front bumper at the center of the grille. This has worked out great, and makes servicing a snap. It also keeps the booster cooler than it would be in the engine compartment. As it is located a bit more than 3 feet from the intake point (just before the butterfly valve), I installed a second bubbler device just 12 inches or so from the intake point. The second bubbler is taller, and larger diameter, than the one on the booster.

I see that your booster is already completed, and it looks fine. If you want to incorporate the blowout device, it would still be a simple matter to prepare another end cap. The blowout device is a failsafe type of device that protects your booster in the event of a worst-case scenario where the HHO gas ignites inside the booster. If you haven't already seen the video where this device is tested under worst-case conditions, you can view it here: YouTube - #81 - VSPB Cell blowout test 1

Once again, sorry for the delay in responding. I hope that you, and others, will find this post interesting and of some value.

Best regards to all,

Rickoff

[Vulcan]

I have seen some different opinions on where to enter the gas into the engine, most common a port on the air intake. Is that the best place with 100% of the gas going there or should there be a tee fitting going somewhere also?
Thanks, Matt

[ANTIQUER]

I have seen some different opinions on where to enter the gas into the engine, most common a port on the air intake. Is that the best place with 100% of the gas going there or should there be a tee fitting going somewhere also?
Thanks, Matt

Hey Matt.

Yes, port it all into the air intake past the MAF sensor if you have one. That way it will totally mix with the air and go to all cylinders evenly.

Al

[ANTIQUER]

I apologize for not responding sooner to your request for a picture of my Smack Booster. I have been participating in so many threads that I rarely have time to go beyond page 1 or 2 in the forums. If you, or anyone else, have any other questions, it would be a good idea to pm me to provide a link to the post where the question resides.

I did photograph my Modified Smack Booster right after building it, so it was relatively easy to convert the bmp format to a jpg file in a reduced size, which I have posted in the Public folder of my Windows Sky Drive. By the way, Sky Drive is an excellent place to post your photos and documents. You get 5 gigabytes of space for free. Here's the photo:
My Smack Booster .jpg - Windows Live SkyDrive

You can see how I modified the top cap so that the blowout device is attached at top center, and the quick-connect hose fitting comes out horizontally. The "ring" for the blowout device is simply a 1 1/4" endcap with the closed end cut from it, leaving the ring that you see. What isn't shown on the ring is that I made a fine saw cut across the diameter of the ring, to a depth that equals the width of a stainless steel hose clamp which I use to assure that the cap stays nicely in place. The cut side goes down, of course, when you place the ring on the blowout tube, and you place the ring so that it holds a double layer of plastic sandwich bag material tightly against the opening of the blowout tube. You will also notice that instead of super-gluing the bubbler to the booster (as suggested in the Smack plans), I opted to use 3/4" conduit clamps, which are made for conduit that is 1" outside diameter - same as the nylon bubbler hose. The screws holding the clamps on are stainless steel sheet metal screws (#8 x 1/2", if I remember correctly). I ground the sharp tip off each of the screws, and used a drill stop device to drill only as deep as the thickness of the bottom end cap and the top end cap adaptor, so the pvc pipe is not compromised and there are no leaks. I also later replaced the quick-connect fitting with a brass fitting because I didn't like the loose feel of the quick connect. When installing the unit in my 1998 Mazda B2500 pickup truck, there was only one place under the hood where it would have fit, and that was too crowded. It would have been very difficult to service the unit, and I didn't like the idea of installing it so close to the alternator, so I opted to install it above the front bumper at the center of the grille. This has worked out great, and makes servicing a snap. It also keeps the booster cooler than it would be in the engine compartment. As it is located a bit more than 3 feet from the intake point (just before the butterfly valve), I installed a second bubbler device just 12 inches or so from the intake point. The second bubbler is taller, and larger diameter, than the one on the booster.

I see that your booster is already completed, and it looks fine. If you want to incorporate the blowout device, it would still be a simple matter to prepare another end cap. The blowout device is a failsafe type of device that protects your booster in the event of a worst-case scenario where the HHO gas ignites inside the booster. If you haven't already seen the video where this device is tested under worst-case conditions, you can view it here: YouTube - #81 - VSPB Cell blowout test 1

Once again, sorry for the delay in responding. I hope that you, and others, will find this post interesting and of some value.

Best regards to all,

Rickoff

Hey Rickoff.

That's a great posting and good looking Smack's. What kind of mpg are you getting and what electronics are you using?

Al

[octavian]

HHO + petrol or just HHO?

this is for those of you who that have an HHO cell fitted in your vehicle: do you use a HHO-gas mix or do you just burn the HHO alone?

[rickoff]

Hi Octavian,

This is a two-part answer. Firstly, We are talking about HHO boosters, which are utilized to boost gasoline engine performance and increase miles per gallon. Boosters are efficent at doing this, but normally do not provide enough HHO to operate a vehicle engine at highway speeds without gasoline. It is said that Stan Meyer was able to run a small Volkswagen engine using 4 of his large water fuel cell units (WFC's), so that might give you some idea of how much HHO is really needed, as a bare minimum, to fuel a vehicle engine without using any gasoline. Stan realized that this was probably not the best way to get the job done, so later developed a water splitting injection system for his dune buggy. With such a device, water is typically pre-heated to a steam, or near steam state, and a very small amount (resulting from one or two water droplets) is injected to a cylinder and vaporized by a very high voltage plasma arc, which converts and combusts the vapor to a HHO burn. As you can imagine, that method would be far more efficient than attempting to utilize several booster type electrolyzers. S1r9a9m9 has used water fuel only, with a high voltage plasma arc, to run his 1974 El Camino V8 engine for several years. For more information about that method, see:
Water Car Technology From 1950 Resurrected

But that isn't the technology we are talking about in this thread, so I think that the second part answer, shown below, is more applicable:

We do not directly mix anything, and you definitely don't want to introduce the HHO to your gasoline line. Gasoline is fed separately, either to the intake manifold through a carburetor, or by fuel injection. An internal combustion engine also requires a large amount of air intake, in the proportion of a 14.7 to 1 (air to fuel) ratio. We simply introduce our HHO gas into the intake airstream, close to - and before - the throttle valve. This arrangement works fine on a carbureted engine, and also works fine on an electronically controlled, fuel injection engine, as long as you have "tricked out" the oxygen sensor. If you add additional boosters, or constuct a single Bob Boyce type electrolyzer, you will require additional controls, and will also need to retard the spark timing somewhat. In an engine running solely on Hydrogen as the fuel source, spark timing must occur after top dead center (TDC) of the compression stroke, not before TDC as when using gasoline as fuel.

I hope that helps,

Rickoff

[rickoff]

Reply to Antiquer Al

Hey Rickoff.

That's a great posting and good looking Smack's. What kind of mpg are you getting and what electronics are you using?

Al

Hi Al,

Thanks for the compliment. I have been averaging between 35 and 38 mpg with my booster, and was getting 25 to 28 mpg previously, on gasoline only. So far I haven't used any electronic controls other than a relay, circuit breaker, and dashboard switch with LED. I have been using an oxygen sensor offset device, constructed of two spark plug anti-foulers, to trick out the oxygen sensor. This isn't an adequate solution for every application, but seems to have worked out well enough for me. Guess I was one of the lucky ones, which is rather unusual for me. Normally, Murphy's Law seems to reign with absolute authority. I think that has helped me, though, in that over the years of my life I have developed a keen sense for observing any situation, or flaw, that could lead to a problem, and that helps me to avert most of them.

Best regards,

Rickoff

[octavian]

Hi Octavian,

This is a two-part answer. Firstly, We are talking about HHO boosters, which are utilized to boost gasoline engine performance and increase miles per gallon. Boosters are efficent at doing this, but normally do not provide enough HHO to operate a vehicle engine at highway speeds without gasoline. It is said that Stan Meyer was able to run a small Volkswagen engine using 4 of his large water fuel cell units (WFC's), so that might give you some idea of how much HHO is really needed, as a bare minimum, to fuel a vehicle engine without using any gasoline. Stan realized that this was probably not the best way to get the job done, so later developed a water splitting injection system for his dune buggy. With such a device, water is typically pre-heated to a steam, or near steam state, and a very small amount (resulting from one or two water droplets) is injected to a cylinder and vaporized by a very high voltage plasma arc, which converts and combusts the vapor to a HHO burn. As you can imagine, that method would be far more efficient than attempting to utilize several booster type electrolyzers. S1r9a9m9 has used water fuel only, with a high voltage plasma arc, to run his 1974 El Camino V8 engine for several years. For more information about that method, see:
Water Car Technology From 1950 Resurrected

But that isn't the technology we are talking about in this thread, so I think that the second part answer, shown below, is more applicable:

We do not directly mix anything, and you definitely don't want to introduce the HHO to your gasoline line. Gasoline is fed separately, either to the intake manifold through a carburetor, or by fuel injection. An internal combustion engine also requires a large amount of air intake, in the proportion of a 14.7 to 1 (air to fuel) ratio. We simply introduce our HHO gas into the intake airstream, close to - and before - the throttle valve. This arrangement works fine on a carbureted engine, and also works fine on an electronically controlled, fuel injection engine, as long as you have "tricked out" the oxygen sensor. If you add additional boosters, or constuct a single Bob Boyce type electrolyzer, you will require additional controls, and will also need to retard the spark timing somewhat. In an engine running solely on Hydrogen as the fuel source, spark timing must occur after top dead center (TDC) of the compression stroke, not before TDC as when using gasoline as fuel.

I hope that helps,

Rickoff

Thanks Rickoff that helped a lot

But one thing though, which is related to the subject in another thread and perhaps is a bit off topic here, does the expansion of the superheated watervapor produce the energy needed to recharge and produce the electrical spark needed to restart the process, and still get the vehicle driving? if so how? is there energy contained in the water that is released or do you have to charge up your battery like in an electric-car?

I know this is a bit off topic but i'm shure more people than me is interested.

love to hear input from other people than Rickoff aswell, even though he's brilliant

[rickoff]

Reply to Octavian

For those who are in fact interested, the other thread which Octavian speaks of is located here: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...html#post21201

First of all, Octavian, I certainly don't consider myself to have a brilliant mind. I am just an ordinary man, and an old one at that. Certainly I have accumulated knowledge and experience during my lifetime that enables me to understand and visualize many concepts, and of course that helps a lot when explaining a concept to another person. I enjoy participating in these forums, and will gladly assist anyone who is asking for help, but please don't consider me as infallible.

Your question, of course, is related to the technology used by s1r9a9m9 to drive his El Camino V8 using water as a fuel source. There are two ways, basically, to operate an engine using water. One is by converting, or disassociating, the water molecules into HHO gas, which is then ignited and burned in the combustion chambers. That is what we do with HHO boosters, or other water splitting devices. Another way of using water is water injection. A small amount of water, injected as a fine mist, will assist an engine in developing more power and reducing fuel consumption. That is because the water, when heated rapidly by gas combustion, provides an expansive steam assist which helps drive each piston downward on its power stroke. It is logical to conclude that the s1r9a9m9 method, of using only water as an energy source, applies both a water splitting and water steam effect to get the job done. The s1r9a9m9 circuitry provides a high voltage plasma arc which is definitely capable of disassociating and igniting some of the water molecules in the area adjacent to the arc. Any remaining water molecules, which were not ignited, would then be converted to high pressure steam by the heat of the HHO burn.

Now to answer your question in a simplified manner, it is the battery that supplies the power used by the circuitry, the inverter, and other components, to create the arcs that make water splitting, HHO ignition, and steam expansion possible. The resultant power, developed within the engine, is then used to propel the vehicle and spin an alternator to maintain battery charge.

Those who are interested enough to click on the link provided at the beginning of this reply will find more information about the electrical circuitry and components that s!r9a9m9 utilizes by reading post #7 of that thread. I hope this reply has met your expectations, and that it will prove useful - or at least interesting and thought provoking - to some who will read it.

Best regards to all,

Rickoff

[octavian]

For those who are in fact interested, the other thread which Octavian speaks of is located here: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...html#post21201

First of all, Octavian, I certainly don't consider myself to have a brilliant mind. I am just an ordinary man, and an old one at that. Certainly I have accumulated knowledge and experience during my lifetime that enables me to understand and visualize many concepts, and of course that helps a lot when explaining a concept to another person. I enjoy participating in these forums, and will gladly assist anyone who is asking for help, but please don't consider me as infallible.

Your question, of course, is related to the technology used by s1r9a9m9 to drive his El Camino V8 using water as a fuel source. There are two ways, basically, to operate an engine using water. One is by converting, or disassociating, the water molecules into HHO gas, which is then ignited and burned in the combustion chambers. That is what we do with HHO boosters, or other water splitting devices. Another way of using water is water injection. A small amount of water, injected as a fine mist, will assist an engine in developing more power and reducing fuel consumption. That is because the water, when heated rapidly by gas combustion, provides an expansive steam assist which helps drive each piston downward on its power stroke. It is logical to conclude that the s1r9a9m9 method, of using only water as an energy source, applies both a water splitting and water steam effect to get the job done. The s1r9a9m9 circuitry provides a high voltage plasma arc which is definitely capable of disassociating and igniting some of the water molecules in the area adjacent to the arc. Any remaining water molecules, which were not ignited, would then be converted to high pressure steam by the heat of the HHO burn.

Now to answer your question in a simplified manner, it is the battery that supplies the power used by the circuitry, the inverter, and other components, to create the arcs that make water splitting, HHO ignition, and steam expansion possible. The resultant power, developed within the engine, is then used to propel the vehicle and spin an alternator to maintain battery charge.

Those who are interested enough to click on the link provided at the beginning of this reply will find more information about the electrical circuitry and components that s!r9a9m9 utilizes by reading post #7 of that thread. I hope this reply has met your expectations, and that it will prove useful - or at least interesting and thought provoking - to some who will read it.

Best regards to all,

Rickoff

thanks

ok perhaps not brilliant, but it was only ment as a compliment, when considering that the information you have given me has helped a lot.

[ANTIQUER]

Also, I forgot to say, I welded Glass to Rocks and metal. I don't understand how it works. 270 degrees flame temp. yet it will melt a rock or glass instantly.
I soldered copper tubing, nothing to special there. maybe I didn't have enough gas, about 2 L minute, about 4 inch flame.

Marlin

Hey Marlin;

As you have discovered the HHO gas has unique properties and is not really understood. It will seemingly adapt it's temperature to the hardness of the material it hits.
It also seems to have magnetic qualities. It will vaporize (no molten metal, just smoke) tungsten steel at 9000 degrees.

You might want to check over at H2Earth. They were assembling a team to investigate the properties of HHO gas about 8 months ago.

Al