HHO Booster System Design: Help Wanted

[Banshee]

Hello Forum,

First off, I'd like to thank Redmeanie and Aaron for helping me get past the registration issue I had. I have been reading these forums for a few weeks and couldn't post a thing due to a registration error. No fun when you can't join in.

I am a newbie to the site and am looking for some guidance in selecting and building my first hydrogen booster and desiging the overall system. I am a mechanical engineer with some electrical experience and have built a few muscle cars to boot. From what I have read, this looks like something I can build on my own with a little help from the forum. So, here goes the background and what I am looking to accomplish. I am sure some of these requirements may change as I learn more.

Research I have done includes:
1. Read Chapter 10.pdf, Smacks booster document, Hotsabi setup, Run your car with water system
2. Hit several websites reading what I can to understand this more

Booster System Requirements include

• Test vehicle is a 94 Honda accord, 5 speed, 2.2 liter engine, currently getting 30 MPG on the highway.

• Travel time to and from work is 30 minutes. Might use the car for long trips, 8 hours/day driving.

• Entry level Hydrogen booster system desired as a learning aid (Single or series type).

• Directions to build this from raw materials or a kit from a reputable source are fine.

• Maximize MPG by implementing a hydrogen booster without requiring extensive modifications such as the systems that produce >3L/min of hydrogen. Things such as an EFIE or similar are fine. I am not interested in something like Bob Boyce’s setup since I am only looking for a booster setup.

• Onboard display (vehicle interior) to monitor system while driving. Current draw, monitoring fluid temp and level, are some of the things I am interested in monitoring.

• Low maintenance system preferred. Distilled water systems seem to require low maintenance compared to other water types (more sludge or mud in electrolyzer).

• Must be able to run in 15 Deg F to 100 Deg F weather with minor changes required.

• Safety is key, given that this is hydrogen I want to incorporate failsafe measures to insure the danger to myself, family or anyone else is minimal or zero. Even something as simple as a separate kill switch to shut the system off from the inside of the vehicle is worth utilizing.

• Insure that the booster system will not detriment the longevity of the vehicle’s engine.

One thing that caught my eye in the Chapter 10 document was the discussion on p10-30 was the series cell setup that appears to be more efficient than others. Also, has anyone looked at the Alexis cell 2 setup offered by HHO Forever site, I was wondering what style booster it’s based on, looks interesting. The Archie Blue one is also intriguing….

Thanks in advance to all,

Banshee

[Redmeanie]

Now that is how its done!

That is a perfect example of "How To Ask A Question"!

Im going to let others chime in here first to give you ideas, but I will tell you that you Only need to monitor Water Level and Current Draw. That can be done real simple. I will chime in after others get you started on the Major Question at hand, the actual "Booster" itself.....

Also in the PDF are you talking about "Wests" Version of a Wasabe?

[Banshee]

Hotsabi - E-cell design

Hi Redmeanie,

I am not familiar with Wests version , the Chapter10 pdf file refers to it as a E-Cell Hotsabi. It was a neat idea, but others have peaked my curiosity more so.

I have a small group of guys that work with me at Erickson AirCrane, the manufacturer the S64 Skycrane helicopter (seen in the movie Swordfish carrying the bus through the city). We are kicking this around trying to see if we can design a system to work with our automobiles. I have a combination of electrical engineers, designers, technicians along with myself, the sole mechanical engineer interested to learn and test out a system.

Right now, I am working on a "Statement of Requirements" document for the design that covers the engineering, performance, and physical requirements. I figure its best to have a plan and requirements lined out before we start off manufacturing or tinkering with something.

Hopefully, with a little guidance and some smarts, we can come up with something cool!

Banshee

[TuxAir]

Oh lord... a bunch of aviation engineers and technicians are going to build something!
And I say that with the utmost respect. I'm in aviation myself and I know what happens when engineers and technicians get together. I know it will end up working and will look great too! Include part numbers starting with AN, MS etc... and will just take a few revisions All the best with your build. You have come to the best place for information. Welcome!

[WCastle]

Welcome Banshee,

Seems strange welcoming someone here being a newbie to this forum myself
But I have been building/testing units myself for awhile.

The current unit I have is a "brute force" method gas producer, has been running on a 1985 GM 2800 for over 2 months and has improved mileage from an average of 25 hwy to average 32 hwy and there is no question when it comes time to fiil up there IS a savings.

I have tried the hokus pokus methods - magnetic fuel line "crackers" air cleaner enhancements, catylist "pills" for the tank and gave up on those.

The brute force method I use is nothing really new it is in a 316l stainless container, 5" x 12" with 316l stainless screen rolled up like a D battery
with poly dielectric screen between the electrodes, 1/2" SS rod for the connections
going through a 1/2 poly top bolted securely to the top of the reactor chamber.

There is a stainless compression fitting to a 3/8" stainless tube for output.

A 1/4" water inlet fitting, and a Stainless screw protruding down from the
poly top for water level sensing, after several incarnations - types of electrolyte "pollution" trials, well what seemed to work best with the vast surface area that screen gives, just plain ole good water seems to work
best, keep in mind not everyone's water is what I would consider good.

I started this design over 4 years ago and just finished all lab tests to my satisfaction this summer, so now it is in service and will stay there.

The way it is configured in its current state there is enough current to use the outer shell of the reactor chamber to run the raditor fan - hey why not make some bubbles while running the fan too !

I am pleased to see more "engineer types" coming here, and when you extrapolate from the consensus here and come up with what works for you
please share your findings, no matter how unlikely they are :0

BTW the "hydrogen" these units produce is not the same as lab hydrogen that has been cracked from fossil sludge and processed, this stuff is "ready" all on its own and every saftey precaution you ever dreamed of for aviation fuel after oxidation needs to also be invoked.

happy hunting.

[ashtweth]

Guys don't forget the tubular cylindrical designs, they have been shown to produce 2LPM at 20 amps and NO heating for 10 hours.
Wouter Oosthuizen

I am writing up ALL the designs for the board it will be compete with Readmeanies EFFIE stuff soon..

[wpage]

Survey location

Banshee,
Good luck with your plans...
B4 you embark verify your space requirments under the hood.
-No point in building a advanced design and finding no place to install it in your rig!
-Map out your wire runs and hose routing as well.
These basics will help with a sound solution in the end.
W

[Banshee]

Design requirements and comments

Hey guys,

Thanks for the data. Too funny about the engineering humor. Lucky for me, I am not what you would call a typical engineer, more along the lines of a maverick in the engineering world. Trust me, I have seen tons of paper generated to support the aircraft world and that's not where I want to go with this design.....keep it simple, stay focused, and see what we come up with.

WCastle - do you have some pics of your design? I'd like to take a look at it in more detail.

I have been following Wouter's latest series cell, looks intriguing but I am not sure if I will get the best bang for the buck given my typical commute time (30 mins). That unit seems to be efficient, but it takes a while to produce what I "suspect" is a reasonable amount of hydrogen.



I have created a set of System requirements to act as a guide for the design. These do not dictate how it works, but focuses on what the product is supposed to do from an external viewpoint. I know this looks long at first glance, but hopefully there is value in it. This, along with a few schematics and drawings is all the paper I hope to generate for the system.

1. Provide a minimum 20% MPG increase in efficiency.
2. System manufacturing cost to be less than $500.
3. Provide a 1 liter/min hydrogen output in less than 5 minutes start up time. Majority of driving will be done to/from work, 30 minute drive.
4. System should be able to handle 8 hour duty cycles (long drive). Duty cycle can run as long as 8 hours and not overheat booster assembly
5. Provide a maximum output of not more than:
• 2 liters/min for 4 and 6 cylinder engines
• 3 liters/min for 8 cylinder engines.
Different boosters are acceptable to meet this requirement. Exceeding these parameters has not provided additional MPG gains. In addition, material issues exist from too much exposure to hydrogen. Initial focus will be on the smaller booster size.

6. Safety provisions must be installed to insure:
• Unit will not explode due to unforeseen ignition or backfire. Pop off valves, check vales, bubblers, pressure relief valves, etc, should all be considered for the mechanical aspects of the system.

• Unit will automatically shut down when critical parameters are exceeded (see below).
Electrical system must be designed such that if any key parameter is exceeded, the unit is shut down (low water, runaway current, etc.)

7. Booster materials must be able to sustain KOH solution environment and handle thermal temperatures up to 200 degrees F. Potassium electrolyte solution, additional safety for expected temperature range



8. Booster system must be able to function with initial ambient temperature of 20 degrees F. Worst case cold thermal environment during startup. May require external heating and/or shielding while vehicle is in operation until booster assembly has reached normal operating temperature. Protect against freezing electrolyte.

9. Booster must not exceed 160 degrees F fully stabilized after an 8 hour cycle. KOH and current are the two thermal drivers. Need to prevent a runaway cell design. Investigate current limiter device or other approach.

10. Booster size to be 10”Tall x 4” x 4” or smaller. Reasonably sized to fit in typical engine compartment.

11. On board vehicle display must provide the following:
• Low water LED
• Low water shutdown LED
• Water temperature (backlit)
• Current draw (backlit)
• Air/Fuel ratio
• Master Shutdown switch
• Booster Circuit Breaker LED
Monitor system performance

12. Booster shutdown must be triggered if:
• Current exceeds 25A
• Water temp exceeds 160F
• Low water shutdown triggered
Safety features to prevent runaway booster and maintain booster performance.

13. On board display module (includes components) to be housed in a 6W”x3T”x4D” enclosure or smaller. Limit size for easy installation.

14. On board display module to be less than 1.0 lbs assembled with all components. Limit weight for mounting

15. Electrical wiring must be able to support 30 Amps. Factor of safety for max current limit.

16. Entire system must be run on typical 12V power supply and pull no more than 20 Amps on average, 25 Amps Max.

17. Air/fuel ratio must automatically adjust to account for addition of hydrogen fuel mixed with gasoline. It must also be able to revert to a gasoline only condition (hydrogen system becomes inactive). Provides proper air/fuel ratio for either environment.


Banshee

[Redmeanie]

Hey guys,

Thanks for the data. Too funny about the engineering humor. Lucky for me, I am not what you would call a typical engineer, more along the lines of a maverick in the engineering world. Trust me, I have seen tons of paper generated to support the aircraft world and that's not where I want to go with this design.....keep it simple, stay focused, and see what we come up with.

WCastle - do you have some pics of your design? I'd like to take a look at it in more detail.


I have been following Wouter's latest series cell, looks intriguing but I am not sure if I will get the best bang for the buck given my typical commute time (30 mins). That unit seems to be efficient, but it takes a while to produce what I "suspect" is a reasonable amount of hydrogen.



I have created a set of System requirements to act as a guide for the design. These do not dictate how it works, but focuses on what the product is supposed to do from an external viewpoint. I know this looks long at first glance, but hopefully there is value in it. This, along with a few schematics and drawings is all the paper I hope to generate for the system.

1. Provide a minimum 20% MPG increase in efficiency.
2. System manufacturing cost to be less than $500.
3. Provide a 1 liter/min hydrogen output in less than 5 minutes start up time. Majority of driving will be done to/from work, 30 minute drive.
4. System should be able to handle 8 hour duty cycles (long drive). Duty cycle can run as long as 8 hours and not overheat booster assembly
5. Provide a maximum output of not more than:
• 2 liters/min for 4 and 6 cylinder engines
• 3 liters/min for 8 cylinder engines.
Different boosters are acceptable to meet this requirement. Exceeding these parameters has not provided additional MPG gains. In addition, material issues exist from too much exposure to hydrogen. Initial focus will be on the smaller booster size.

6. Safety provisions must be installed to insure:
• Unit will not explode due to unforeseen ignition or backfire. Pop off valves, check vales, bubblers, pressure relief valves, etc, should all be considered for the mechanical aspects of the system.

• Unit will automatically shut down when critical parameters are exceeded (see below).
Electrical system must be designed such that if any key parameter is exceeded, the unit is shut down (low water, runaway current, etc.)

7. Booster materials must be able to sustain KOH solution environment and handle thermal temperatures up to 200 degrees F. Potassium electrolyte solution, additional safety for expected temperature range



8. Booster system must be able to function with initial ambient temperature of 20 degrees F. Worst case cold thermal environment during startup. May require external heating and/or shielding while vehicle is in operation until booster assembly has reached normal operating temperature. Protect against freezing electrolyte.

9. Booster must not exceed 160 degrees F fully stabilized after an 8 hour cycle. KOH and current are the two thermal drivers. Need to prevent a runaway cell design. Investigate current limiter device or other approach.

10. Booster size to be 10”Tall x 4” x 4” or smaller. Reasonably sized to fit in typical engine compartment.

11. On board vehicle display must provide the following:
• Low water LED
• Low water shutdown LED
• Water temperature (backlit)
• Current draw (backlit)
• Air/Fuel ratio
• Master Shutdown switch
• Booster Circuit Breaker LED
Monitor system performance

12. Booster shutdown must be triggered if:
• Current exceeds 25A
• Water temp exceeds 160F
• Low water shutdown triggered
Safety features to prevent runaway booster and maintain booster performance.

13. On board display module (includes components) to be housed in a 6W”x3T”x4D” enclosure or smaller. Limit size for easy installation.

14. On board display module to be less than 1.0 lbs assembled with all components. Limit weight for mounting

15. Electrical wiring must be able to support 30 Amps. Factor of safety for max current limit.

16. Entire system must be run on typical 12V power supply and pull no more than 20 Amps on average, 25 Amps Max.

17. Air/fuel ratio must automatically adjust to account for addition of hydrogen fuel mixed with gasoline. It must also be able to revert to a gasoline only condition (hydrogen system becomes inactive). Provides proper air/fuel ratio for either environment.


Banshee

Every One of your requirements are achievable and available right on this site. The only thing you are going to have to research and probably design is the Display you want.

But all the safety features and Target Outputs are Common Place, that shouldn't take any real research at all.

The Run Away Current can be controlled by a PWM, the A/F Ratio can be monitored but if it is a Narrow Band O2 you are using it's not going to be "Exact" its going to be "Ball Park" if you want exact, you being in the Aviation Field I know you know this, but an EGT is the way to go.

The Auto shut down is easy just wire in a "Breaker" which is pretty much mandatory anyway, and an LED Shorted across the Legs. When it trips the tripped Leg becomes Ground, and the LED will light. The Water Level shut down can be wired through the Main Relay, Inline with the Coil side.

[Banshee]

Booster Cell

Thanks Redmeanie,

I will be doing more research on the site to see what I can find to support the design......

I am curious to see what booster design people recommend. I know the Smacks booster has worked well for many people. Series cell setup seem more efficient, but I wonder if the electrolyte solution can be adjusted to ramp up the warm up time/hydrogen output and still use a PWM to keep the temperature/current under control. Maybe setting up the PWM to only be triggered when a certain temp or max current is reached, not sure if that realistic or not....

The reason I am asking is that I would primarily target the booster for 30 minute commutes to/from work with occasional longer trips. Having said that, you would want the booster to ramp up in hydrogen production reasonably quick to get the benefits within a 30 minute drive.

The Archie Blue cell looks interesting as well, but I haven't heard much about them.

Banshee

[Redmeanie]

Thanks Redmeanie,

I will be doing more research on the site to see what I can find to support the design......

I am curious to see what booster design people recommend. I know the Smacks booster has worked well for many people. Series cell setup seem more efficient, but I wonder if the electrolyte solution can be adjusted to ramp up the warm up time/hydrogen output and still use a PWM to keep the temperature/current under control. Maybe setting up the PWM to only be triggered when a certain temp or max current is reached, not sure if that realistic or not....

The reason I am asking is that I would primarily target the booster for 30 minute commutes to/from work with occasional longer trips. Having said that, you would want the booster to ramp up in hydrogen production reasonably quick to get the benefits within a 30 minute drive.

The Archie Blue cell looks interesting as well, but I haven't heard much about them.

Banshee

Well to be honest, once a Cell has been conditioned, there is NO Warm up time. as soon as it is switched on the electrolysis starts immediately. The Electrolyte Temp has nothing to do with production, and a very important key is to keep it as low and stable as possible.

Also if you are looking for a Compact, very easy and reliable design the "Archie Blue" is where you want to be looking at. Just do a search here and you will see links I have posted for others to the "Archie Blue" Patent.

[Banshee]

Single, series, and Archie Blue designs..

If I understand you correctly, the hydrogen output is will kick in immediately to full potential for a cell that's broken in regardless of electrolyte temp as long as the proper current is being applied.



If that's the case, then would the benefits of a series cell outweigh a single cell type booster? The assumption is that the series cell is less prone to the temperature issue than a single cell. Are there other pros/cons between a single and series cell that are significant? What kind of cell is the archie blue type, series or single?



At any rate, if the hydrogen output is immediate at startup, then I shouldn’t worry about it, but focus on the temp and current controls..



Banshee

[Redmeanie]

If I understand you correctly, the hydrogen output is will kick in immediately to full potential for a cell that's broken in regardless of electrolyte temp as long as the proper current is being applied.



If that's the case, then would the benefits of a series cell outweigh a single cell type booster? The assumption is that the series cell is less prone to the temperature issue than a single cell. Are there other pros/cons between a single and series cell that are significant? What kind of cell is the archie blue type, series or single?



At any rate, if the hydrogen output is immediate at startup, then I shouldn’t worry about it, but focus on the temp and current controls..



Banshee

Absolutely!

The series cell is chosen just for that reason,because they are more "Efficient", but many choose the single cell, smack's and Archie Blue style because of ease of build and space requirements. Remember even a series cell must have adequate plate area for each individual cell.

My opinion, all you need to monitor is Amperage and Water Level. If one of those changes drastically in a short time then you know you have a problem. KISS Theory is absolutely the way to go, over complicating things will just make more room for mistakes.

[Banshee]

Any pictures of a Archie Blue cell?

Absolutely!

The series cell is chosen just for that reason,because they are more "Efficient", but many choose the single cell, smack's and Archie Blue style because of ease of build and space requirements. Remember even a series cell must have adequate plate area for each individual cell.

My opinion, all you need to monitor is Amperage and Water Level. If one of those changes drastically in a short time then you know you have a problem. KISS Theory is absolutely the way to go, over complicating things will just make more room for mistakes.

Hey Redmeanie,

Do you have any pictures of an Archie Blue cell you have built in the past? I have searched the net and the site, found basically a cross section per the patent and little more.

The write-up on the smack's booster is very detailed and easy to follow. I was hoping to find something along those lines for the Archie Blue cell as well. Something that would be specific on spacing, materials, hole sizes, etc.

Banshee

[Danny EscapeHybrid]

I am in agreement with Banshee. I've looked for a working model of the Archie Blue setup and only found the patten posted.

I am also looking for a more indepth build on this style of generator and looking to put two of them up on my V-8 Sport-Trac (then later to the Escape Hybrid).

Any help on this would be good for direction.

Danny