HHO Booster System Design: Help Wanted

[Banshee]

PWM, Temperature control...

Absolutely!

The series cell is chosen just for that reason,because they are more "Efficient", but many choose the single cell, smack's and Archie Blue style because of ease of build and space requirements. Remember even a series cell must have adequate plate area for each individual cell.

My opinion, all you need to monitor is Amperage and Water Level. If one of those changes drastically in a short time then you know you have a problem. KISS Theory is absolutely the way to go, over complicating things will just make more room for mistakes.

Hey Redmeanie,

I was talking with the guys at work about the current and temperature runaway potential and came up with a few more thoughts and questions....

If you use a standard PWM to control the current, won't that cut down on the HHO output? The wave signal as I understand it would effectively turn off the current to the booster and effectively cut off the HHO output. I know that current and temp are related in the booster, but wouldn't it be better to solve these problems independently. The thermal problem might be addressed with heat excahnger of sorts for the fluid or find a way to dissapate the heat from the booster casing....

The PWM could still be utilized to provide the power to the booster with less of a load to the electrical system....By the way, had anyone used inverters combined with a PWM handling AC to drive the booster? Is that feasible?

For all I know this might be getting far away from the KISS principle.......
Banshee

[Danny EscapeHybrid]

The thermal problem might be addressed with heat excahnger of sorts for the fluid

Banshee,

I've been thinking about that and Im going to look at setting up an air/liquid heat xchanger.

Ive got a spare one from a computer system and thinking of crossing it with a fish tank pump to circulate the electolyte.

Wont bleed off all the heat, but keep it warm and manageable.

Danny

[Banshee]

Heat exchanger.....

Banshee,

I've been thinking about that and Im going to look at setting up an air/liquid heat xchanger.

Ive got a spare one from a computer system and thinking of crossing it with a fish tank pump to circulate the electolyte.

Wont bleed off all the heat, but keep it warm and manageable.

Danny

Funny you would mention that, I had a guy at work tell me some of the things they recently came out with in cooling computer systems....I have no idea about compatibility of materials, but that would have to be worked out. Keep me in the loop on how you make out

Banshee

[Redmeanie]

Hey Redmeanie,

I was talking with the guys at work about the current and temperature runaway potential and came up with a few more thoughts and questions....

If you use a standard PWM to control the current, won't that cut down on the HHO output? The wave signal as I understand it would effectively turn off the current to the booster and effectively cut off the HHO output. I know that current and temp are related in the booster, but wouldn't it be better to solve these problems independently. The thermal problem might be addressed with heat excahnger of sorts for the fluid or find a way to dissapate the heat from the booster casing....

The PWM could still be utilized to provide the power to the booster with less of a load to the electrical system....By the way, had anyone used inverters combined with a PWM handling AC to drive the booster? Is that feasible?

For all I know this might be getting far away from the KISS principle.......
Banshee

Actually No Your Output WON'T Decrease, It Actually Increases. Yes a PWM does effectively switch the current on and off but you are talking 100's and upwards of 1000's of times a second. This gives the plates a chance to release the H and O that sticks to the plates.

As far as External Cooling devices, if you feel it necessary for some reason, just run your fuel line through your electrolyzer and cool your Electrolyte. If you are going to run Straight DC your electrolyte will get hot enough to heat your fuel for you also..........

Im perplexed why anyone would step backwards to "Brute Force" Direct Current when there is no reason too?

[Redmeanie]

Oh yeah forgot the other question...Yes "Boyce" Has. Look up his Design, it uses an Inverter, inverted back to DC...

[Redmeanie]

Banshee,

I've been thinking about that and Im going to look at setting up an air/liquid heat xchanger.

Ive got a spare one from a computer system and thinking of crossing it with a fish tank pump to circulate the electolyte.

Wont bleed off all the heat, but keep it warm and manageable.

Danny

You don't need to worry about heat that much if your cell is built correctly. KOH and heated water can be very hard on materials, and there are only a hand full of materials that have been "Proven" to hold up to that environment.

I believe people over complicate things because it's unknown to them. I will tell you with a standard "Booster" and a PWM or some other way to control current, You will not have a big heating "Problem".

[Banshee]

Good to know

Thanks for the insight Redmeanie

What you say makes sense. I am going to work with the guys here to see what we can do on the PWM. I'll check into the Boyce option to see what it requires......

Banshee

[Tarkus]

My dirt simple cell

This cell was my first working model and was thrown together on a Saturday afternoon. It consists of 4 tubes 7" long with .5" difference in dia. in a 12"X4" PVC chamber, the 2 middle tubes are Neutral or parasitic. A home built PWM running at approx 43 KHz

Tubes are 26ga. 304 SS rolled and spot welded.
Electrolyte is KOH @ 1 Tsp per gal.
HHO out put is close to 2Ltr a min with less than 20amps draw
Automotive PCV valves on top act as flashback arrestors.
Output runs directly in intake manifold

Vehicle is a 1986 Toyota pick up with 22R carburetter engine 120,000mi
MPG before 19mpg city/24 mpg hwy
MPG after installation 25 city/27 hwy
MPG after conditioning 27+city/ 32hwy

I have yet to install an EFIE (yes it has a O2)

[Banshee]

This cell was my first working model and was thrown together on a Saturday afternoon. It consists of 4 tubes 7" long with .5" difference in dia. in a 12"X4" PVC chamber, the 2 middle tubes are Neutral or parasitic. A home built PWM running at approx 43 KHz

Tubes are 26ga. 304 SS rolled and spot welded.
Electrolyte is KOH @ 1 Tsp per gal.
HHO out put is close to 2Ltr a min with less than 20amps draw
Automotive PCV valves on top act as flashback arrestors.
Output runs directly in intake manifold

Vehicle is a 1986 Toyota pick up with 22R carburetter engine 120,000mi
MPG before 19mpg city/24 mpg hwy
MPG after installation 25 city/27 hwy
MPG after conditioning 27+city/ 32hwy

I have yet to install an EFIE (yes it has a O2)

Hey Tarkus

Pretty cool for a saturday afternoon project.

Can you help me understand why the two tubes in the middle are Neutral? It looks like this is a single cell setup vs. series cell from the description.

How does the system do with temperature over time?

I am still looking to see if someone has built an Archie Cell setup that I can learn from, its looks like a cool setup, but I need more information on how to build it than what I have found on the net...

Banshee

[cyberphreax]

This cell was my first working model and was thrown together on a Saturday afternoon. It consists of 4 tubes 7" long with .5" difference in dia. in a 12"X4" PVC chamber, the 2 middle tubes are Neutral or parasitic. A home built PWM running at approx 43 KHz

Tubes are 26ga. 304 SS rolled and spot welded.
Electrolyte is KOH @ 1 Tsp per gal.
HHO out put is close to 2Ltr a min with less than 20amps draw
Automotive PCV valves on top act as flashback arrestors.
Output runs directly in intake manifold

Vehicle is a 1986 Toyota pick up with 22R carburetter engine 120,000mi
MPG before 19mpg city/24 mpg hwy
MPG after installation 25 city/27 hwy
MPG after conditioning 27+city/ 32hwy

I have yet to install an EFIE (yes it has a O2)

That sounds like a decent setup. Did you actually use any of the components of that computer PS or just the shell and fan? I've assuming that's what you're referring to as the PWM correct? How often do you have to change the electrolyte? When you say the SS sheets are rolled and spot welded do you mean the seam is completely sealed or are there places that the electrolyte can leak into the other cells?

[jstadwater]

Hello Tarkus,

I am considering a build similar to the one you show here. Is the innermost tube the cathode, and how full of electrolite is the unit? To use nuetral we have to separate the cells from each other.......correct? I am new here and am considering a multiple tube design using one or two nuetral tubes between the cathodes and anodes . Any further info on your design would be most gratefully accepted with open arms! I have only built one booster to date, a "five shooter", still in conditioning phase. I am a mechanic and replica Lamborghini builder by trade. Looking forward to more and exciting new advances as we progress!!

[Banshee]

Series Cell by Wouter

Hello Tarkus,

I am considering a build similar to the one you show here. Is the innermost tube the cathode, and how full of electrolite is the unit? To use nuetral we have to separate the cells from each other.......correct? I am new here and am considering a multiple tube design using one or two nuetral tubes between the cathodes and anodes . Any further info on your design would be most gratefully accepted with open arms! I have only built one booster to date, a "five shooter", still in conditioning phase. I am a mechanic and replica Lamborghini builder by trade. Looking forward to more and exciting new advances as we progress!!

Take a look at what Wouter is building on the Waterfuelforall forum. It is a tube setup series cell style. Its another interesting method for booster designs....

What I am finding is that it really depends on how you are going to use the cell that dictates which one to build...lots of good stuff out there..

Banshee

[Tarkus]

Tubes and Parasitic plates???

First the tubes are only spot welded @ 4-5 points along the seams, electrolyte leakage between plates is not an issue.

Neutral or parasitic plates:Plates or tubes between the anode and cathode that are not connected into the electrical circuit but react as though they are electrically active, generating HHO and cutting the amperage draw.
Most likely due to an electrical field effect caused by the anode and cathode.

Neutral plates are connected together

Hope this helps

[jstadwater]

Thank you, I am reading into it now, so far I like what I see. Man, there is so much good info available!

[rosco1]

Alexis cells

Quote[One thing that caught my eye in the Chapter 10 document was the discussion on p10-30 was the series cell setup that appears to be more efficient than others. Also, has anyone looked at the Alexis cell 2 setup offered by HHO Forever site, I was wondering what style booster it’s based on, looks interesting. The Archie Blue one is also intriguing….}Unquote.

I'm awaiting delivery of a twin Alexis V2 kit, which hopefully should arrive in the next 2 weeks or so. I'll have up to 6 LPM to play with.

I plan to install it first on a heavily modified/high performance 312 V8 single carb engine and see how it goes.

There are also plans to test it on a new fully computer controlled V6 as well.

The VMU that is supplied with the kit should cover any and all applications.

I'm certainly looking forward to trying it out.