Water Sparkplug

[ashtweth]

Plug wear report

Hi guys, finally in. Now mixed results, seemed like we got 5% better MPG or so, which adding to the booster being 16% is still significant 21% . Now no one would be with out this plug circuit (as is) to start their car in winter. Even if they didn't run the circuit all the time and just bi- passed it after starting, Greg already showed us how useful it is by being able to start with no choke etc.

Here are the snaps of plugs after an average of 50 minutes driving a day for 6 days no rest. I think they held up OKAY, BUT There is some SLIGHT wear as you can see. Rev's circuit may still need less caps and more voltage IMO. We are gonna try that next. Greg may have found the best balance.

http://img88.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pic0008pj9.jpg
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Here are the custom leads Andrew made
Which comprise 16 diodes 1000 Volt 3 amps
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[Jetijs]

Hi Ash.
Thank you for the video and plug wear pics.
I made some plug wear tests using some low quality non resistor spark plugs. I used the original spark and boosted it with 10uF caps charged to 310V via a 40w lightbulb. This whole thing consumed 35w. I noticed that the more watts your spark booster circuit consumes, the faster will also the spark plug wear out. After 2 hours of non stop running on my generator, the spark plug already showed a little wear. And that is only with 30w input. I calculated that if I drove an average of 3-4 hours a day, I could probably drive about a month till the spark plug failed due to electrode wear. But with some higher quality plugs you might go longer.
Although it is hard to get some stable data out of my genset, but after many many tests, my conclusion is that the fuel economy using the water spark setup with vexus circuit is about 6.7-7.3%, so this is almost the same number that you had
Good job!

[Ansis Freimanis]

to Ash

Your results are "normal". It means HV Volts + LV Amps = wear of Sparkplugs metal electrodes. We have little welding machine on board... In scientist labs- they experimenting with wider electrodes gaps between electrodes- it mean higher voltages and lover current, but they have long- duration impulses with HV DC 3000V capacity discharge "boosters". I read in Russian literature about American experiments in ~1980 years using plasma discharge ignitions. They (Americans) are igniting the mix of fuel with long- high frequency impulses. That means- fuel mix are prepared to ignite for longer period of time- no one dot of explosion, but from time "0" to time "x"(its about 30 degree angle). Temperature between electrodes is about 40 000 degree Celsius, but secondary 3000V are discharge to 900V in this period of time (30 degree angle). Max fuel economy was 14%.
P.S. I think- in our "home" laboratory’s we must be very clever, to experimenting with this stuff of equipment. We can dy easily...

[ashtweth]

Hi Jetijs, thanks for the report Bro, if i got HALF the R and D done you do man i would die a happy man hmm well at least we didn't loose as much as those pulstar plugs .

I still think if it wasn't for the open source engineers doing these tiny tweaks we would not have the opportunity (like the video you guys made) to show people and make them realize what the weakest link is in the ICE- THE SPARK PLUG. AND Ian's and Rob suppressed plugs + more. We have a By pass circuit on Rev's version, (building Greg's soon) i am inclined to think we can still use what we have ATM to get up hills or for a quick start in the morning , mayby even run it in a duty cycle circuit

Or show some one how to smoke some one at the lights from second gear to 4th gear hehehe

We gotta get a booster up there for that genset man, i just spoke to Bill (nexus) he is building a hydroxy unit. You know the spark plug would help the GEET start to before the whole thing gets through the reactor.

Now thing i want to see is the 6.7-7.3% and WATT as opposed to HP on the DYNO in December. Maybe we can find a COP+1 in there some where this way ...

[turbotrana]

5% is good bearing in mind no other changes. The mixtures in the average auto ICE are "rich", easy to light mixtures. So spark wont have a massive effect.
However it is in the "lean" (16.5:1+), hard to ignite mixtures where I expect this ignition system to shine.

Auto makers "tune for emissions" first then economy second. They have to by law. The latest emission regulations restricts the leanest A/F ratio to 14.7 as Nox dramatically rises after 14.7 to about 16:1. But after about 20:1 Nox dramatically reduces. But current ignition systems will usually experience "lean misfire" after about 17:1. So we are stuck with 14.7

So I think that the best test for this ignition will be seeing how lean a mixture will it fire. If it can fire 24:1 lean mixtures without misfire then we are going somewhere.

I have the equipment to test the lean misfire limit but I am unsure as to what is the better circuit to use at this point.

Ideally if someone could post up a "laymans" electronic circuit with a parts list it would make it easier for me to get started. Preferably the one without using the lightglobe.

[revizal]

Hi Ash,

That was a good progress from your long driving test . With that big plasma spark it seems we need a special spark plug which strong enough to carry on the plasma effect. We've got the power booster allready.

One more point..What we need to know is if this plasma switched by an oscilator (timer) in high frequency could burn fuel like gasoline and diesel to get Hydrogen enrich that we can use to increase MPG (just like what MIT plasmatron done).

Rev.

[gmeast]

plug and power

Hi guys, finally in. Now mixed results, seemed like we got 5% better MPG or so, which adding to the booster being 16% is still significant 21% . Now no one would be with out this plug circuit (as is) to start their car in winter. Even if they didn't run the circuit all the time and just bi- passed it after starting, Greg already showed us how useful it is by being able to start with no choke etc.

Here are the snaps of plugs after an average of 50 minutes driving a day for 6 days no rest. I think they held up OKAY, BUT There is some SLIGHT wear as you can see. Rev's circuit may still need less caps and more voltage IMO. We are gonna try that next. Greg may have found the best balance.

.................................................. ...............

Hi Ash,

I don't have as many hours on my plugs as you guys have on yours, but I do have about 50 hours so I'll send a pic of that. What is interesting to note is that my modest little spark computes to only 0.08 Joules of energy discharge ... 4uF x 200VDC! I am working on my oscillator to make the actual power required to generate that (small amount of) energy and power more in line WITH it.

The pic below is at about 4300 RPM. It shows the 4uF cap charge trace (very classic, typical - through an R1 of 500 Ohms) and the discharge trace (almost instantaneous, vertical).

Peace,

Greg

[gotoluc]

5% is good bearing in mind no other changes. The mixtures in the average auto ICE are "rich", easy to light mixtures. So spark wont have a massive effect.
However it is in the "lean" (16.5:1+), hard to ignite mixtures where I expect this ignition system to shine.

Auto makers "tune for emissions" first then economy second. They have to by law. The latest emission regulations restricts the leanest A/F ratio to 14.7 as Nox dramatically rises after 14.7 to about 16:1. But after about 20:1 Nox dramatically reduces. But current ignition systems will usually experience "lean misfire" after about 17:1. So we are stuck with 14.7

So I think that the best test for this ignition will be seeing how lean a mixture will it fire. If it can fire 24:1 lean mixtures without misfire then we are going somewhere.

I have the equipment to test the lean misfire limit but I am unsure as to what is the better circuit to use at this point.

Ideally if someone could post up a "laymans" electronic circuit with a parts list it would make it easier for me to get started. Preferably the one without using the lightglobe.

Hi turbotrana,

I do agree with what you are saying and we will get to that point. As I see it now, the electronics side of the circuit is still being ironed out. We can do it in many ways but plug wear is going to be an important issue to deal with which will direct us to how the circuit may need to be. The next issue will be power consumption, to bring it to a minimal, which again will further the circuit. I think once these are dealt with we will create a laymans illustration circuit that most anyone will be able to build and then those talented in the art or tuning a combustion engine will be able to take it to a super lean machine point.

I do have a question for you. Is it your understanding that as an engine is leaned out so does the temperature rise?

Thanks for sharing your thoughts

Luc

[Jetijs]

I do have a question for you. Is it your understanding that as an engine is leaned out so does the temperature rise?

Luc

That is how it is supposed to be and this is because if you have a rich mixture, there is more moisture (gasoline) in the mix thus it cools the cylinder. When you run leaner, there is more air and less moisture that could cool the engine. I can see this if I run my genset and monitor the temperatures. If I close the air intake of the carburetor a bit, more vacuum is created to suck more gasoline in the engine making the mixture richer. And the temperature goes down a bit. But on the other hand, every time I turn the vexus booster side ON, the engine exhaust temperature drops by about 10-15 degree Celsius.
Thanks,
Jetijs

[Chris31]

But on the other hand, every time I turn the vexus booster side ON, the engine exhaust temperature drops by about 10-15 degree Celsius.
Thanks,
Jetijs

@ Jetijs

How are you measuring the exhaust temp? are you using an EGT sensor? Is this on the genset?

[Jetijs]

Chris,
I use an infrared thermometer and just point it at the same point on the exhaust pipe each time. And yes, this is on the genset

[Mr_M]

That is how it is supposed to be and this is because if you have a rich mixture, there is more moisture (gasoline) in the mix thus it cools the cylinder. When you run leaner, there is more air and less moisture that could cool the engine. I can see this if I run my genset and monitor the temperatures. If I close the air intake of the carburetor a bit, more vacuum is created to suck more gasoline in the engine making the mixture richer. And the temperature goes down a bit. But on the other hand, every time I turn the vexus booster side ON, the engine exhaust temperature drops by about 10-15 degree Celsius.
Thanks,
Jetijs

Evening gentlemen, a quick question to Jetijs regarding lean burn.

When you did the lean burn experiment on your genset it you add any ignition timing advance to compensate for the slower burn time of the lean mixture??

Example on cars (In a classic ignition system with breaker points for this example) there is a vacuum advance to aid the mechanical advance for lean cruise.

From wikipedia

The second method used to advance the ignition timing is called vacuum timing advance. This method is almost always used in addition to mechanical timing advance. It generally increases fuel economy and driveability, particularly at lean mixtures. Vacuum advance works by using a manifold vacuum source to advance the timing at low to mid engine load conditions by rotating the position sensor (contact points, hall effect or optical sensor, reluctor stator, etc) mounting plate in the distributor with respect to the distributor shaft. Vacuum advance is diminished at wide open throttle (WOT), causing the timing advance to return to the base advance in addition to the mechanical advance.

This allows for greater time for the mixture to burn, but with a negative effect of working against the piston due to the ignition event being trigger further away from TDC than a richer mixture.

IMHO, I think you will find that if you increase the ignition advance that you will find a sharp decrease in exh. gas temp, as the mixture is still not "burning" out the exhaust valve.

[jstadwater]

Smoked Another One............

Hey guys,

I'm a little confused by these events, last night the engine ran just fine for the 10 or 15 minutes I ran it. Today I start it up and the inverter fried in 2 seconds flat! I was able to verify last night that my OBD2 PCM scan program works now that I have the shielded cable under the hood (froze up every time with regular wiring), tested the radio too, no RF noise at all........at least that's good news. The hookups are very easy to make, just crimp on the ends and screw them into the splitters, I like it. I also turned off the lights in the shop and started it up to check for any arcs in the engine bay at my connections. I did this without the plasma circuit on and also with the circuit plugged into a wall outlet (after the inverter fried), no visible or audible arcing and engine was completely smooth with no missfire. If there was a short in the line somewhere, it would make the engine missfire (been there, done that). I'm so fed up with the inverters at this point I could screeeeeeeem!

Greg, would you please post me your oscillator transformer circuit with the values, sizes, and stats of the components? PM it to me if it's not completely ready for public yet, maybe I can help in the development. I can just double everything you are using as a starting point for my V-8. Then I'll just play with it until I get it right for 8 cylinders. If I can get the voltage from a "less sensitive" source, I can continue testing......I really want to drive it up the road soon.

I can tell you this, with the VexUs turned on, the throttle response and QUICK rpm gain matches any high performance 350 I've ever built.............and THIS engine is stock! Can't wait to lean this baby out and throw in some hydroxy! Well, below are a couple pics of being finished under the hood, now all I need is some reliable voltage and I'm good to go!

Later....................................Mike

[gmeast]

oscillator

Hey guys,

I'm a little confused by these events, last night the engine ran just fine for the 10 or 15 minutes I ran it. Today I start it up and the inverter fried in 2 seconds flat! I was able to verify last night that my OBD2 PCM scan program works now that I have the shielded cable under the hood (froze up every time with regular wiring), tested the radio too, no RF noise at all........at least that's good news. The hookups are very easy to make, just crimp on the ends and screw them into the splitters, I like it. I also turned off the lights in the shop and started it up to check for any arcs in the engine bay at my connections. I did this without the plasma circuit on and also with the circuit plugged into a wall outlet (after the inverter fried), no visible or audible arcing and engine was completely smooth with no missfire. If there was a short in the line somewhere, it would make the engine missfire (been there, done that). I'm so fed up with the inverters at this point I could screeeeeeeem!

Greg, would you please post me your oscillator transformer circuit with the values, sizes, and stats of the components? PM it to me if it's not completely ready for public yet, maybe I can help in the development. I can just double everything you are using as a starting point for my V-8. Then I'll just play with it until I get it right for 8 cylinders. If I can get the voltage from a "less sensitive" source, I can continue testing......I really want to drive it up the road soon.

I can tell you this, with the VexUs turned on, the throttle response and QUICK rpm gain matches any high performance 350 I've ever built.............and THIS engine is stock! Can't wait to lean this baby out and throw in some hydroxy! Well, below are a couple pics of being finished under the hood, now all I need is some reliable voltage and I'm good to go!

Later....................................Mike

Mike,

Will do ... just a little more work with transistor cooling.

Greg

[turbotrana]

Luc,
My understanding is that exhaust temps will peak at peak Nox which is around 16:1 a/f ratio. After peak Nox they start to decrease. At 20:1 exhaust temps decrease significantly along with Nox.

The best way I can describe driving a lean burn engine is that you have "lean burn lag". That is as you make the a/f ratio leaner, the more you have to open the throttle to maintain the speed of the vehicle. It is this extra air that starts to cool down the exhaust gases. I am hoping that this plasma ignition system can improve "lean burn lag" so that the vehicle is a bit nicer to drive.

Also I used to think running an engine lean at cruise would cause issues for the engine. For most engines its no problem at all.

The problem lies with certain Catalytic converters. They suffer if the exhaust temps go over their design limit.