Water Sparkplug

[gmeast]

oscillator

I remember you showing me this circuit demo .......................................

@Greg

I am having some issues with my power supply, thought you might could help me out. I get 192VAC output from the unit, then run through a tripler circuit and end up with 590VDC to the MW cap. It gives a more robust plasma spark than I had on mains power at 450VDC total output........as long as it's only firing one plug. I hooked up four plugs to simulate your four cylinder, I turn on the power supply and then start the electric motor that turns my distributor. As soon as the distributor starts to turn, the plasma is good, and then instantly goes down to a very small plasma spark that has trouble firing water mist. I am using the original config of the schematic, 4 transistors, 400uF cap pairs of 50V rate instead of the 220uF ones on the schematic. The supply, just powering it's own circuitry, pulls 4.8 amps from the battery. It pulls 9 amps at about 2,000 4-cylinder rpm's. I think I must have used the wrong values for some components is why it pulls so much power. I do have 5,000uF and 10,000uF caps on order, not sure what to change to get this to a usable level. Thanks in advance for any help you can give me. Later..................................Mike

Hi Mike,

Hook up a FWB instead of your doubler or tripler. Now hook it up with four plugs or however many you can - 8 maybe. And see if you get consistent spark over a range that way at first. If it works with just the FWB then the problem is with the doubler/tripler. I know that the doubler has to have the capacity for the power throughput. I get much above 3500 RPM and my doubler takes a drastic fall-off but the output of the oscillator stays put. Can you look at the output of the oscillator on a scope? It's possible that the oscillator is screaming at too high a frequency to be efficient. I have 10,000 uF pairs on mine and it's frequency is around 88 Hz. What's you transformer ratings again? Mine is 115 x 5 @ 4.8A (parallel) or 115 x 10 @ 2.4A (series with center tap). Mine runs 6 - 8 Amps just sitting there ... and I don't care 'cause it don't blow up like my inverters did.

I think the issue is frequency and the trippler. As the voltage goes up, the amperage drops proportionately (or even more). Try your larger caps when you get them, drop back down to a doubler and don't worry about the power draw ... I don't ... right now.

I am so pleased with mine I can't tell ya'. I hope this helps some. It will work for you just fine once you get it dialed in.

Peace,

Greg

[jstadwater]

Hey Greg,

I just got my large caps from UPS this morning, I will swap them out and see if it helps. I don't have a scope to check the frequency. I hooked the VexUs circuit up to 110VAC mains and it works perfectly with the tripler. It's probably the frequency, like you said. The sticker on the transformer says: model TR250, Input 100-120VAC 60Hz, Output 6.3VAC + 6.3VAC @3amps, center tap.

That might be the problem right there, when I ordered it they said the transformer was 110VAC to 12VDC! The sticker says the input and output are both AC! But, it does output 192VAC from the 12VDC battery, so I don't know.

Initially I had the 1000uF storage cap across the input from the battery like you did instead of the 220uF on the schematic. I noticed when I removed it the power supply draws an additional .5 amps from the battery.........with nothing hooked up to it. Just an observation.

I use 120uF caps in the multiplier circuit, are they too big for this supply? One more question, is it OK that my caps in the supply are 50V rated?

Thanks, later....................................Mike

[gmeast]

transformer

Hey Greg,

I just got my large caps from UPS this morning, I will swap them out and see if it helps. I don't have a scope to check the frequency. I hooked the VexUs circuit up to 110VAC mains and it works perfectly with the tripler. It's probably the frequency, like you said. The sticker on the transformer says: model TR250, Input 100-120VAC 60Hz, Output 6.3VAC + 6.3VAC @3amps, center tap.

That might be the problem right there, when I ordered it they said the transformer was 110VAC to 12VDC! The sticker says the input and output are both AC! But, it does output 192VAC from the 12VDC battery, so I don't know.

Initially I had the 1000uF storage cap across the input from the battery like you did instead of the 220uF on the schematic. I noticed when I removed it the power supply draws an additional .5 amps from the battery.........with nothing hooked up to it. Just an observation.

I use 120uF caps in the multiplier circuit, are they too big for this supply? One more question, is it OK that my caps in the supply are 50V rated?

Thanks, later....................................Mike

Hi Mile,

These transformers can 'just barely' do 1 : 10 step up but NOT 1 : 20. I tried doing that so I didn't need a doubler but my 115 VAC x 6.3 VAC transformer just saturated and collapsed. The 115 VAC to 6.3 VAC plus a multiplier will definitely collapse both at the transformer and at the multiplier. There is a logical and sensible cause here. I think we found it.

Greg

[jstadwater]

So then, all we need is a bigger transformer...........right?


Mike

[gmeast]

CORRECTION oops!

Hi Mile,

These transformers can 'just barely' do 1 : 10 step up but NOT 1 : 20. I tried doing that so I didn't need a doubler but my 115 VAC x 6.3 VAC transformer just saturated and collapsed. The 115 VAC to 6.3 VAC plus a multiplier will definitely collapse both at the transformer and at the multiplier. There is a logical and sensible cause here. I think we found it.

Greg

CORRECTION I hope you get this before you make too many changes !

I looked closer to what you said ... "6.3 + 6.3" IS correct. You have 12 VDC w / Center tap. On the multiplier ... if the caps are too small then it will run out of capacity. I had to ADD caps to my doubler. I have two groups of four 100 uF (x 410 VDC) in parallel. I have 400 uF on each side of my doubler.


*************I think the issue must be Frequency***************


There's nothing wrong with a 50 VDC rating for the oscillator caps. I 'm using 10,000 uF x 16 VDC pairs in mine.

Sorry. I should have readed what you writed betterer.

Greg

[jstadwater]

COOL, I haven't changed anything yet. So, I need to change the 400uF pairs on the supply board to the 10,000uF pairs. I will then hook up a FWB to the supply output and test the VexUs with that first. If that works OK, then I will hook up extra caps in parallel in the tripler circuit and keep adding banks untill it keeps up. Is this correct? Also, should I put the storage cap back in, but use one of the 10,000uF's for it? Thanks Greg, for everything................................Mike

[jstadwater]

OK, here's what I did. I swapped the 470uF pairs onthe supply board to 5,600uF pairs. With or without the storage cap, it draws 9.5 amps from the battery, just sitting there turned on. The supply output also dropped from 192VAC down to 145VAC. Firing 4 plugs at about about 1,000 rpm, tripler circuit engaged, it makes a modest plasma spark that reacts well to water mist. At about 2,000 rpm, the spark is greatly diminished and water mist puts it out immediately. At the 2,000 rpm (which translates to ONLY 1,000 rpm for the V-8), it draws 13.5 amps. I have not tried it with only a FWB instead of the tripler, but if it pulls 13.5 amps at 1,000 V-8 rpm's, it's not going to work for me on a V-8. Back to the drawing board I guess. Later............................Mike

[gmeast]

Fwb

OK, here's what I did. I swapped the 470uF pairs onthe supply board to 5,600uF pairs. With or without the storage cap, it draws 9.5 amps from the battery, just sitting there turned on. The supply output also dropped from 192VAC down to 145VAC. Firing 4 plugs at about about 1,000 rpm, tripler circuit engaged, it makes a modest plasma spark that reacts well to water mist. At about 2,000 rpm, the spark is greatly diminished and water mist puts it out immediately. At the 2,000 rpm (which translates to ONLY 1,000 rpm for the V-8), it draws 13.5 amps. I have not tried it with only a FWB instead of the tripler, but if it pulls 13.5 amps at 1,000 V-8 rpm's, it's not going to work for me on a V-8. Back to the drawing board I guess. Later............................Mike

Hi Mike,

Please try the FWB anyway to see if it keeps up that way. Actually the 145 VAC is correct for the 115 x 6.3 x 6.3. I get 200 VAC because my transformer is 115 x 5 x 5.

Well I wish you wouldn't give up on this yet but promise me if you find another inverter or another circuit that works please keep me posted.

Greg

[jstadwater]

Hey Greg,

I really must come up with a supply that draws less amps. I will also be running a hydroxy cell on this vehicle, and possibly even a couple other things I am playing around with. I will probably need to use up to 15 amps for the hydroxy production, two units consuming that many amps would be too much on the charging system to be reliable for any length of time. I will keep you posted, I am still going to try a couple other things yet with this supply to see if I can get the consumption down. I measured again today, The plasma spark only draws 1 amp at 3,000 rpm from the power supply. That means the supply itself is eating up almost all those amps! Experimenting continues....................................Mike

[Kinetix]

Hi everyone.
jstadwater, I cannot understand why you don't use a charge pump? Greg posted a schematic, I posted one too.
Mine draws about 4A at high rpm (if I recall correctly...) and charges 2.2uF at 500V in about 3ms. As the rpm rises (to 6000rpm simulated), the voltage drops to 300-350V.
All the best.

[pmonk]

Hi Greg, Mike

This is my first post. I have been working on installing a plasma ignition on a 2004 For Ranger pickup. I has a 3 liter V6 engine. The ignition coil is controlled by the ECU. It is unique because it is positive spark on cylinders 1,2,3 and negative spark on cylinders 4,5,6. This has forced me to build two separate circuits, one for positive spark and one for negative spark. The inverter circuit I am using is similar to yours, but it is using 4 transistors. It only draws 500ma.I have it installed and operational on cylinders 1,2,3 and am waiting on some backordered parts to finish the circuit for cylinders 4,5,6. The website where I got the drawing from has removed the circuit, so I have attached a photo of the drawing. I am using a 24v center tap transformer for T1 that has a 240 volt primary and a voltage doubler. For Q1,2 I am using MJ2955 which is a complimentary transistor for the 2N3055. Hope this helps.

Regards,
Phil

[gmeast]

circuit

Hi Greg, Mike

This is my first post. I have been working on installing a plasma ignition on a 2004 For Ranger pickup. I has a 3 liter V6 engine. The ignition coil is controlled by the ECU. It is unique because it is positive spark on cylinders 1,2,3 and negative spark on cylinders 4,5,6. This has forced me to build two separate circuits, one for positive spark and one for negative spark. The inverter circuit I am using is similar to yours, but it is using 4 transistors. It only draws 500ma.I have it installed and operational on cylinders 1,2,3 and am waiting on some backordered parts to finish the circuit for cylinders 4,5,6. The website where I got the drawing from has removed the circuit, so I have attached a photo of the drawing. I am using a 24v center tap transformer for T1 that has a 240 volt primary and a voltage doubler. For Q1,2 I am using MJ2955 which is a complimentary transistor for the 2N3055. Hope this helps.

Regards,
Phil

Hi Phil,

"Hope this helps" ? ... YOU BET !. Thanks for posting. I've been searching for a better circuit but they are all just like the oscillator we've been trying. I don't have a problem with the power, but Mike needs spme of his charging capacity for other stuff. I will build the one you have posted today ... and let you know.

What water spark plug circuit (plasma spark circuit) are you using? I noticed that the inverter output has a leg tied to ground (via diode). The one(s) I've been using does not and doubles as an isolation transformer ... I think we need.

Thanks much. Peace,

Greg

[Ansis Freimanis]

to Mike

Mistake is:
1. Your Transformer is working on not effective frequency.
Change frequency. If not- You make "short circuit" situation.
2. Take oscilloscope and look to output. It must be sinusoidal.
3. How do You connect Your pair transistors- there can be resistors in base, but others- collector and emitter must be together.
3. Take 220V or two 110V lamps in serial and connect to output without bridge rectifier. There must be normal operation- without big amperage.
Be happy!

[jstadwater]

500mA draw sure sounds good to me!! With that small of a parts list, and that small an amp draw, I could use two units If I needed to boost if it wouldn't keep up with the V-8! From what I see, the caps on the board are 47pF at 50V rate? The blocking diodes after T1 would be 600V rate at 500mA? That part looks like just a voltage doubler, so we just hook our existing ones to T1's primary, right? I will be very joyous if this will work for us. I guess the only question then is..............will it make good solid plasma? Later.............................Mike

[gmeast]

Pnp

Hi Phil,

"Hope this helps" ? ... YOU BET !. Thanks for posting. I've been searching for a better circuit but they are all just like the oscillator we've been trying. I don't have a problem with the power, but Mike needs spme of his charging capacity for other stuff. I will build the one you have posted today ... and let you know.

What water spark plug circuit (plasma spark circuit) are you using? I noticed that the inverter output has a leg tied to ground (via diode). The one(s) I've been using does not and doubles as an isolation transformer ... I think we need.

Thanks much. Peace,

Greg

Hi Phil,

I couldn't find the PNP transistor ... 2N1305 ... I don't think it exists ... wrong numbers for a PNP. I CAN can find the complimentary power transistor to the 2N3055 = MJ2955. Do you think that's what they mean in the drawing? I'll get some of those.

Greg