Water Sparkplug

[gmeast]

Spec

When I use a 3055. I take a nte128 or a nte129 too dirrect drive it. You get more gain. Then you can drive it with a 1000ohm resistor.

Hi maxc,

Can you pls post a schematic. And is this a CMOS component?

Thanks in advance

[maxc]

Hi maxc,

Can you pls post a schematic. And is this a CMOS component?

Thanks in advance

Nte128 is a npn 1watt, 1amp, 90 gain transistor.
129 is it's complement. Just hook the collector too collector and the emitter of the nte128 too the base of the 3055. Then run the base of the npn128 with a 1000ohm resistor. Then with the nte129 its emmiter gos too the collector on the 3055 then collector of the nte129 too base of the 3055 then 1000ohm too base of nte129. Big time gain those 1 ampers are cheep.

[gmeast]

nte128 - 129

Nte128 is a npn 1watt, 1amp, 90 gain transistor.
129 is it's complement. Just hook the collector too collector and the emitter of the nte128 too the base of the 3055. Then run the base of the npn128 with a 1000ohm resistor. Then with the nte129 its emmiter gos too the collector on the 3055 then collector of the nte129 too base of the 3055 then 1000ohm too base of nte129. Big time gain those 1 ampers are cheep.

Thanks a bunch !

Greg

[gmeast]

Oscillator - driving hard

Hi Everyone,

Thanks Chris31 ! I decided to sneak up on the base current. Well I finally ended up with 50 Ohm resistors on the bases of the 3055's. The quiescent current fell to less than 600ma and the power draw follows the load plus the 'at-rest' power.

Thanks,

Greg

[Kinetix]

Nice. Other parts in the schematic changed? Tried with caps?
It would be fine to post the revized schematic at last.
magnetO, I am afraid I didn't get the point... What is your conclusion after experimented with those diodes?
Best wishes.

[gmeast]

oscillator update

Hi Everyone,

Thanks Chris31 ! I decided to sneak up on the base current. Well I finally ended up with 50 Ohm resistors on the bases of the 3055's. The quiescent current fell to less than 600ma and the power draw follows the load plus the 'at-rest' power.

Thanks,

Greg

Ok, I am satisfied enough with the oscillator to replace my present 'power hog' with the new one. After putting in the 50 Ohm base resistors the frequency is 80 Hz at 14.0 Vdc. It is 97 Hz @ 16 Vdc and 78.9 Hz @ 12.72 Vdc. The oscillator freq. is voltage sensitive to a degree, but not bad at all. It consumes 50 Watts of power to produce 40 Watts @ 155 Vrms. This is acceptable for sure. I compute 40 Watts required to run the VexUs circuit at 3000 RPM, 4-cyl., 350 VDC CDI Cap Charge / Discharge. I hope the Voltage Multiplier performs accordingly.

So 50 Watts plus the quiescent power of 8.4 Watts, < 60 Watts is fairly good for such a primitive circuit with such a low part count.

I will still cool the Transistors and the Transformer in this circuit.

2ea 12K Ohm x 2W resistors
2ea 50 Ohm x 5W resistors
2ea 1uF x 250Vdc electrolytic caps
2ea 2N3055 transistors
2ea MJ2955 transistors
2ea heat sinks (for the 3055's)
1ea 24VA 115VAC x 10VAC w / Center Tap or equiv.
2ea 1.5" x 1.5" 12 VDC chassis fans for cooling.

Peace,

Greg

[Jetijs]

Greg, wouln't you want a higher frequency?

[gmeast]

frequency

Greg, wouln't you want a higher frequency?

Hi Jetijs,

Well, either a storage cap or the caps in the multiplier will take care of the 'humps' or any harmonic. The one for the Bug now only runs at 55 Hz and the trace is clean. If I need to bump the freq. up it's easy to replace the 1uF cap with a smaller one. If I were charging the CDI cap direct, without storage, then I would need a higher frequency charge for sure. I'm just trying to cut down on transformer heating and losses. I'm open to suggestions ... I'm just happy with this thing doing more like what it's supposed to.

Thanks,

Greg

[Kinetix]

another idea

Greg, try to put a big capacitor (maybe 220uF/25V - 1000uF or more) between the center tap of the transformer and ground, as this might improve the eficiency.

[Gibs]

Maximum efficiency

Greg, wouln't you want a higher frequency?

You're right Jetijs,

By tuning the transformer at the right frequency we insure max efficiency.

It's quite possible with this multivibrator type of circuit. Just change the value of the components and that's it. It's not like the inverter type of circuit where the feedback is provided by another winding so you barely cannot change the frequency.

The ideal transformer for our application would certainly be the toroidal, since it's smaller and more efficient at higher frequency.

Also, even if I know that some of us don't really trust them, I would still recommend MOSFET's instead of NPN's for outputs.
They require less heat-sinking, they switch at low resistance and there is no need to overdrive in order to get more power. The result again is more efficiency.

Just my thoughts.


Gibs

[Chris31]

You're right Jetijs,

By tuning the transformer at the right frequency we insure max efficiency.

It's quite possible with this multivibrator type of circuit. Just change the value of the components and that's it. It's not like the inverter type of circuit where the feedback is provided by another winding so you barely cannot change the frequency.

The ideal transformer for our application would certainly be the toroidal, since it's smaller and more efficient at higher frequency.

Also, even if I know that some of us don't really trust them, I would still recommend MOSFET's instead of NPN's for outputs.
They require less heat-sinking, they switch at low resistance and there is no need to overdrive in order to get more power. The result again is more efficiency.

Just my thoughts.


Gibs

I think MOSFETs is a taboo subject here

No really Ill do the same, IR make some really nice self oscillating drivers, the timing is set by a resistor+caps, setup just like the 555 timer.

Since they done alot of work already and felt comportable with it, Ill rather not steer them away from the original design. Greg did made it clear that they are steering away from MOSFETs a while ago for a reason or two.

[gmeast]

tuning

You're right Jetijs,

By tuning the transformer at the right frequency we insure max efficiency.

It's quite possible with this multivibrator type of circuit. Just change the value of the components and that's it. It's not like the inverter type of circuit where the feedback is provided by another winding so you barely cannot change the frequency.

The ideal transformer for our application would certainly be the toroidal, since it's smaller and more efficient at higher frequency.

Also, even if I know that some of us don't really trust them, I would still recommend MOSFET's instead of NPN's for outputs.
They require less heat-sinking, they switch at low resistance and there is no need to overdrive in order to get more power. The result again is more efficiency.

Just my thoughts.


Gibs

Hi Gibs and all,

I couldn't agree more regarding a properly 'tuned' transformer for the job. Knowing this I at least chose a transformer with enough copper and iron in it for my power range. So, I chose a 24 VA (Watt) transformer with a 115VAC Primary and 10VAC secondary w/center tap (configuration). Further I chose a 'semi-toroid' design for efficiency. It is rated for 50/60 Hz. How much more tuned can you get? Problem is ... I'm running it 'backwards' so none of that applies maybe except the size (iron and copper).

If anyone actually KNOWS how to treat this scenario then I'm all ears. There must be a means (equations, analysis, etc.) of determining the proper operating frequency for a transformer of this size (any size) given the configuration and other parameters. I don't know how to do this. If a there was a 'step up' transformer with a center tap on the primary (and was designed and sold as one) then I'm sure it would carry an appropriate rating name plate that could be relied upon.

So, I'm just doing the best I can with what I don't know. I can continue testing with the power hog supply I have but I can't run my head lights too ... alternator get sizzling HOT. The idea is to continue with the Water Spark Plug testing not building power supplies, oscillators, inverts, etc.

Everyone that's built the VexUs circuit has blown CMOS and Micro-based inverters to H--L and back but the plasma circuit survives. TVS's didn't work nor other isolation methods, but the dumb old NPN power transistor-based supply lives on. Just trying to make a more efficient version of the same thing.

Well, there ya' go.

Peace,

Greg

[Xack]

Bipolar oscillator questions for Greg

Greg,
What is the power consumption of the "new" bipolar transistor (capactor charger) inverter? .6 amp right? Is that no load or with the car running? You said that your alternator is getting hot. Is that from running the AC inverter or the ocillator/transformer power unit? What's the best set up to start from?

by the way, all you guys, thanks for all your work. I'm on the Allied web site ordering parts to conduct my own set up.

The transformer sounds right, Power out = power in - losses. For a step up, you just apply the voltage to the secondary instead of the primary. If it's designed for 50/60Hz and your driving it with 55Hz you should be well in the ball park.

The problem with popping MOSFET's in 555 type oscillators (Driving the charging circuit) is that they are being driven by a square wave. Two problems exist. 1. they are not being fully switched on as the Source Voltage ~= Gate voltage from the 555 output. 2. the waveform your pushing through the inductor/capacitor components is not sinusoidal. Therefore your pushing the transistor in the top and bottom of the wave to dissipate that power (heat). and in this case without using a "driver" to fully switch it on it gets hot and does not deliver the rated amps. Fully on = Vgs + Vcc. Literally, a sqare peg in a round hole. The bipolars/transformer is a round (sinusoidal) approach. Also, obviously MOSFET's don't do inductive loads without a flywheel diode across the Source and Drain. MOSFET transistors will NOT tolerate non-solid state switching at all. If you use a MOSFET, you must NOT disconnect the transistor circuit from the transformer or inductive load until voltage is 0.

Kyle

[sigzidfit]

Pow!

US Patent 4710681 - Process PROCESS FOR BURNING A CARBONACEOUS FUEL USING A HIGH-ENERGY ALTERNATING CURRENT WAVE

Process for burning a carbonaceous ... - Google Patents

Heres what the Department Of Everything has to say about it....

This patent describes an electronic ignition circuit for applying a high-frequency, high-voltage wave to a spark gap of a spark ignition device in a combustion chamber into which a combustible fuel is introduced and including a.c. means for providing an alternating current high-voltage, high-frequency wave, and switching means coupled to the a.c. means providing the wave during ignition intervals, and in which the a.c. means includes a d.c.-d.c. converter that is formed of a step-up transformer having a center tap primary, and a secondary, a pair of transistors coupled in push-pull between the primary and a battery potential, with a center tap of the primary being connected to a complementary battery potential.^ The transistors have control electrodes, feedback means coupled to the control electrodes and supply a feedback signal thereto so that the primary receives oscillations of current through the transistors, and rectifier means coupled to the secondary to produce a high voltage d.c. current, and further including a chopper circuit connected to the rectifier means for producing a high voltage a.c. current.^ The improvement in which the chopper circuit produces the high voltage a.c. current at a substantially constant predetermined frequency, and includes a trigger circuit coupled to the feedback means and to the pair of push-pull transistors to switch the chopper circuit on and off at the predetermined frequency with oscillations of the transformer primary such that the output wave has a peak voltage of 25,000 to 200,000 volts and at the predetermined frequency in the range of 8 KHz to 80 KHz.

Energy Citations Database (ECD) - - Document #5487387

Here's the Google search (only 43 results! ) that produced these results.

"step up transformer" "center tap primary" - Google Search

I reckon ya'll can take it from here.

PEACE
PJ

[Kinetix]

Greg, please try the trick with that big value capacitor connected with it's "+" at the primary center tap and with it's "-" to ground. Begin with a few hundreds uF, and experiment with bigger values, till the gain stops.
I have seen this on a few oscilators using center tap transformer. It may change the frequency and improve the efficiency.
Best wishes.