Water Sparkplug

[gotoluc]

Greg, man i wish i could keep up and be as vigorous as you, is it the tea?

Okay, i got an answer back from Robin, i think your circuit cause of the min amps will still do well.

"Hi Ash , The plugs are made of beryllium copper and the set I have in my van have several hundred miles on them with no apparent problems, but I am only running a MSD ignition. There is nothing like actually trying something to see what it will do, so it will be interesting to see if they hold up to the new plasma ignition. If not I can make them out of high chromium nickel. Robin David "

Hi Ash,

Robin has sent me 2 plugs some months back and they were made of the same steel the rest of the plug is made of. Recently he has switched to a new alloy for durability. He told me the plugs are now made of an Alloy called Beryllium Copper. Info Beryllium copper - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They may look like Copper but not really just that. He has been testing and developing these for some time now.

However it would be interesting to see how a high Nickel content Stainless version of this plug would preform as some have reported nickel could have a catalysis effect on water in the combustion chamber?

Luc

[gmeast]

low cap

Greg, man i wish i could keep up and be as vigorous as you, is it the tea?

Okay, i got an answer back from Robin, i think your circuit cause of the min amps will still do well.

"Hi Ash , The plugs are made of beryllium copper and the set I have in my van have several hundred miles on them with no apparent problems, but I am only running a MSD ignition. There is nothing like actually trying something to see what it will do, so it will be interesting to see if they hold up to the new plasma ignition. If not I can make them out of high chromium nickel. Robin David "

Hi Ash,

I agree. The cap I'm using is a 1uF HV oil-filled Cap. It's a total of about 7 Watts being pushed across the spark plug gap(s) at 3000 RPM (the Bug). That's pretty low power. Still gonna watch 'em close.

I'm installing the steam water drip system now. The Firestorms are already in. The inlet air circuit has been rerouted so I can filter the inlet air and I also added bleed air from the fan shroud to cool the carburetor because it will get warmer now because of the improved steam + the fact that all inlet air is now coming through the heater box in an effort to prevent condensation.

Anyway ... almost testing again.

Peace,

Greg

[Xack]

Timing

Greg,
I was wondering about optimal timing. Today I had a discussion with a someone who said that there was some type of motorcycle racing which incorporated a plasma spark plug in the early 80's (details are unclear). The problems they encountered was holes blown in the tops of the pistons due to preignition. ??? I mentioned to him that water mixture (steam) should supress any preignition (done with turbo to supress preignition of fuels under higher compression). My thoughts are that the optimal timing for the rapid explosion of hydrogen should be late, especially dealing with H2O only. In the case of gasoline I think the water should improve preignition backfire or eliminate it. Also, cooler temps in the combustion chamber? Can we measure your engine temps with and without plasma. Also, with and without steam or water injection.

I was thinking about the effects of starting your engine with Plasma. While the engine is rotating slowly any advance especially with HHO could result in damage. Be careful not to advance the timing too much with plasma otherwise a hole in your piston could result. Good practice should be adjust with regular sparks, then add plasma perhaps.

Xack

[Jetijs]

Xack,
my tests showed that my genset operates a bit cooler with the plasma spark alone and no water introduced. I don't remember exact number, but the exhaust pipe was around 20 degree Celsius cooler than when running on standard spark

[Xack]

tops of pistons

Jetijs,
I keep hearing from others about holes being blown in tops of pistons related to hydrogen. Is that a total myth propogated by some machine? Or is there any truth at all to it?

I know this is slightly off track from the main discussion but if there is any truth related to plasma spark I'd like to know before I pop pison tops in my Honda. I"m also under the impression that this is a totally unique and unexplored technology which issues like this may not apply at all.
Your reply welcome.
Xack

[Jetijs]

If you use hydrogen on your car to aid gasoline combustion or just plain hydrogen without retarding timing, then this of course will shorten the engine life, because hydrogen does increase the burn speed of fuel mix and if the timing is too advanced, the piston will still be in the fuel compression phase when the hydrogen aided fuel mixture already explodes and starts to push back. So it is possible that without changing the timing, the faster fuel burn rate can damage the engine.

[gmeast]

timing

Greg,
I was wondering about optimal timing. Today I had a discussion with a someone who said that there was some type of motorcycle racing which incorporated a plasma spark plug in the early 80's (details are unclear). The problems they encountered was holes blown in the tops of the pistons due to preignition. ??? I mentioned to him that water mixture (steam) should supress any preignition (done with turbo to supress preignition of fuels under higher compression). My thoughts are that the optimal timing for the rapid explosion of hydrogen should be late, especially dealing with H2O only. In the case of gasoline I think the water should improve preignition backfire or eliminate it. Also, cooler temps in the combustion chamber? Can we measure your engine temps with and without plasma. Also, with and without steam or water injection.

I was thinking about the effects of starting your engine with Plasma. While the engine is rotating slowly any advance especially with HHO could result in damage. Be careful not to advance the timing too much with plasma otherwise a hole in your piston could result. Good practice should be adjust with regular sparks, then add plasma perhaps.

Xack

Hi Xack,

I'm pretty sure I'm not igniting the steam. But I am igniting an otherwise difficult medium. I think there is an initial electrolysis at the plug producing hydrogen in a small quantity that facilitates the ignition of the steam-rich mixture. Also, because I'm ingesting the steam with the air, there is a slightly enriched fuel content (steam displacing air). On ignition, a respectable amount of energy goes to heating the steam and producing pressure and decreasing the temperature of the fuel-air in the process. The net result is lower temperature gas(s) in the chamber. We still have the same physical expansion ratio therefore the same theoretical thermal efficiency for the expansion cycle. However, the OVERALL efficiency is increased because less heat is being rejected to cooling the engine (heat traveling through cylinder walls / heads) as the engine now runs cooler.

Because there is a more energetic spark, there is faster ignition but not as much as if I were burning hydrogen. So, some retardation is in order but I have no idea how much.

Thanks for input. Peace,

Greg

[Xack]

Exploding Steam...

Greg,
There was also this fellow which was "injecting" steam through copper tubing and a fitting with a spark plug and plasma. Well "injecting" may not be very accurate. It was a cloud which came from a flask heated by a bunsen burner. The plug was held upside down. There was a flame plume as the plasma ignited the steam cloud. I'm not sure if you could say that the episode was as much as HHO gas or Gasoline due to the quality of the video, but nonetheless it produced a flash. It's on Youtube. I'll look for it and send you a link.

Also, there is the issue of long term wear on valve parts and seats due to the errosive nature of non-superheated steam. Blades in steam turbines cavitate where steam vapors fall out in higher pressure areas like leading edges. How much and what kind of erosion, time will only tell when you run your car for a long period of time.

There again, if you only draw in what steam comes from your drop of water on your exhauste manafold, I'm quite sure that its so little that it won't make a big difference. Starting small and going to something bigger should be the right approach.

Xack

[ashtweth]

More from Ravzz

"Ash, Platinum-Rhodium Thermocouples are commercially available in various wire sizes and these have good wear resistance at high temperatures as well and are available in wire form and can be flattened for this application.

There is another rare Thermocouple Alloy made from Tungsten - Rhenium Alloy which can withstand temperatures of over 2500 deg C and can be used here but its pretty difficult to find in retail."


Ash

[gmeast]

difference

Greg,
There was also this fellow which was "injecting" steam through copper tubing and a fitting with a spark plug and plasma. Well "injecting" may not be very accurate. It was a cloud which came from a flask heated by a bunsen burner. The plug was held upside down. There was a flame plume as the plasma ignited the steam cloud. I'm not sure if you could say that the episode was as much as HHO gas or Gasoline due to the quality of the video, but nonetheless it produced a flash. It's on Youtube. I'll look for it and send you a link.

Also, there is the issue of long term wear on valve parts and seats due to the errosive nature of non-superheated steam. Blades in steam turbines cavitate where steam vapors fall out in higher pressure areas like leading edges. How much and what kind of erosion, time will only tell when you run your car for a long period of time.

There again, if you only draw in what steam comes from your drop of water on your exhauste manafold, I'm quite sure that its so little that it won't make a big difference. Starting small and going to something bigger should be the right approach.

Xack

Hi Xack,

My tests with steam ingestion was well played out in the scenario I presented. The results were manifest as an EGT that fell from 700 to 535 F (k thermocouple up the exhaust pipe - to 'before' the steam point). The water is much more than just a drip ... it's almost a flow.

There are those issues of non-superheated steam vs erosion/corrosion. Being from the gas turbine industry myself, these are some of the issues on the forefront. Some of my inspiration for the approach I'm taking comes from work I did with combined cycles wherein one of the tests we injected steam from a recoup and condensed all of the water plus a percentage of the water from the combusted fuel. Our EGT was down 300 F (small engine) and no drop in HP. There was more evidence of cavitation damage on the 1st and 2nd stage compressor stator and disk blades than on any in the hot section. So I'm just relying on experience here.

Thanks,

Greg

[gmeast]

already done

Hi Xack,

Your points of view have been noted. But please read all of the posts pertaining to my tests.

Your comment - "There again, if you only draw in what steam comes from your drop of water on your exhauste manafold, I'm quite sure that its so little that it won't make a big difference." - indicates you have not.

I have mileage and instrumentation data supporting this cycle.

I think it would be great if you could post results of tests that YOU have performed as well as share pictures and videos of things YOU have built and tested.

Greg

[broli]

I see that "iridium" has been mentioned two times here. I don't know how big of a problem wear still is but here's an intresting isolated post I read.

Singapore Bikes Forums - View Single Post - Silverwing 400cc / 600cc Tech Corner

This mainly is eye catching;

Q. What makes Iridium better?

A. Until recently, platinum was considered the best material to use on the top of an electrode because of its durability. However, Iridium is 6 times harder, 8 times stronger, and has a melting point 1200 degrees higher than platinum. Put that into a harsh environment such as an engine piston chamber, and you have a spark plug that can resist wear much better than platinum. Additionally, the DENSO Iridium Power alloy is so durable; it allowed our engineers to produce the world’s smallest center electrode (.4mm) which reduces the voltage requirements, concentrating its sparking power. Also, its smaller size, combined with the tapered U-Groove ground electrode, allows more room for the flame kernel to develop and produce a more efficient combustion.

[Xack]

already done.... sigh 1..2..3..4..5..6..7..8..9..10...

Greg,
You could just have sited the entry. I guess I missed it. Sorry dude.

That comment was not meant to be the way you took it, I'm pretty sure.
I was hoping to generate discussion around that and perhaps put it on the radar since long term performance and engine issues ARE relavent.

So you called me out on the testing. I'm doing the best I can right now. Admittedly, I'm not as far along as you but I'm getting my test vehicle this week. Also, I would like to get some specifications on making or getting some plugs.

Xack

[gmeast]

ok

Greg,
You could just have sited the entry. I guess I missed it. Sorry dude.

That comment was not meant to be the way you took it, I'm pretty sure.
I was hoping to generate discussion around that and perhaps put it on the radar since long term performance and engine issues ARE relavent.

So you called me out on the testing. I'm doing the best I can right now. Admittedly, I'm not as far along as you but I'm getting my test vehicle this week. Also, I would like to get some specifications on making or getting some plugs.

Xack

all righty

Greg

[gmeast]

Xack

Hi everyone,

Xack PM'd me and told me I acted like a jerk. Ok ... I acted like a jerk. He also wanted me to apologize in this forum. Ok ... I apologize for being a jerk.

I still stand on my analysis of the engine test cycle I am running.

It's getting into the high 40's in my shop right now (AM). Since I installed the Firestorm replicas, I noticed that the Bug starts and runs solid when cold, no choke and WITHOUT the Water Spark Plug plasma circuit running. Amazing! I energized the Water Spark Plug circuit AND IT RAN EVEN BETTER ... #%$@&*!

Gotta keep working on the new water feed for the steam. I'm using a small variable speed peristaltic pump this time. Now I can increase the flow as a function of engine speed ... not automatically but at least it's something.

Peace,

Greg