Water Sparkplug

[Shane Jackson]

I noticed my layout made it to the panaceauniversity PDF.... But not a lot of response..... Do you guys think having these boards made is a bad idea?

This is my latest layout. I designed it to fit inside a AN-2805 project box for a very clean install.




I also did some tests this weekend and it seems the voltage drop across the diodes is approx .5v each, or 40v total. I am not too worried as the voltage doubler was actually putting out 345v!!

Hi Guys,

I am designing a Vexus PCB and have taken many of the different ideas and combined them. Here is my current layout. Any recommendations or advice is greatly welcomed.



It may be a little hard to tell what all is on the board so I will try and describe it:
First there is 80K volt protection. Each diode has a 500k ohm resistor to prevent cascading failure should a diode go bad.

There is a 1 ohm 100w Caddock resister to protect the inverter. Also R1 is a Caddock resister. This will require either a large heat sink or use of a metal case with the resistors mounted to it.

Not shown in this revision is the ability to use different CDI caps (C1). My latest revision has holes for a 10, 22, 33, or 47uF cap.

I was also thinking of having the option of either a voltage doubler or quadrupler.

Once concern that I have is the voltage drop across all the diodes.

So what do you think?

[ashtweth]

Guys some one is sending us the "sonic plugs", hopefully they fit on the GEET as its hydrosonic frequency to help "crack" the fuel. Will send a report and snaps soon.

[gmeast]

layout

I noticed my layout made it to the panaceauniversity PDF.... But not a lot of response..... Do you guys think having these boards made is a bad idea?

This is my latest layout. I designed it to fit inside a AN-2805 project box for a very clean install.
---------------------

I also did some tests this weekend and it seems the voltage drop across the diodes is approx .5v each, or 40v total. I am not too worried as the voltage doubler was actually putting out 345v!!

Hi Shane,

I think it's a great idea, but my work with the VexUs circuit has shown me that the CDI Cap needs to be an oil filled cap. In the case of your circuit a plug and two-wire cable could go to an external oil filled cap. I had to use eight series parallel caps (see VexUs-6) in order to get the power throughput and cooler operation. The to-247 power resistor with heatsink is great ... I was going to do that but got lazy ... I bought the resistors though ... weren't cheap. My current resistor is a 500 ohm X 50 Watt X 5% w/extruded aluminum heat sink ... one of those gold ones.

I blew up 4 inverters on the VexUs then I built my own oscillator and the oscillator's transformer provides inherent isolation. If you use an inverter you'll also need and isolation transformer. Someone said that there should also be an inductor somewhere at the inverter to keep it from blowing up but I've not verified that ... has anyone?

Just sharing my experience,

Greg

P.S. Everything's still fine with the parallel NTE517's after the installation of the new coil.

[ashtweth]

You cannot make an omelet, well at least not a Greg omelet with out breaking a few eggs

[gmeast]

breaking a few eggs

You cannot make an omelet, well at least not a Greg omelet with out breaking a few eggs

... and I have a 5 gallon bucket of messed up eggs !

Greg

[Shane Jackson]

I went ahead and ordered a limited number of boards. They have enough flexibility to be able to use various different components. I like the idea of being able to use an external cdi cap.... Now I just wished I had added holes for nte517's so you would have had the option to use them if you had wanted... I guess you still can, may just have to solder to the top of the board...


Now if I could just get my hands on some firestorm plugs....

Well since it's mid Q1,2009 I shouldn’t have too much longer for them to be available...

Hi Shane,

I think it's a great idea, but my work with the VexUs circuit has shown me that the CDI Cap needs to be an oil filled cap. In the case of your circuit a plug and two-wire cable could go to an external oil filled cap. I had to use eight series parallel caps (see VexUs-6) in order to get the power throughput and cooler operation. The to-247 power resistor with heatsink is great ... I was going to do that but got lazy ... I bought the resistors though ... weren't cheap. My current resistor is a 500 ohm X 50 Watt X 5% w/extruded aluminum heat sink ... one of those gold ones.

I blew up 4 inverters on the VexUs then I built my own oscillator and the oscillator's transformer provides inherent isolation. If you use an inverter you'll also need and isolation transformer. Someone said that there should also be an inductor somewhere at the inverter to keep it from blowing up but I've not verified that ... has anyone?

Just sharing my experience,

Greg

P.S. Everything's still fine with the parallel NTE517's after the installation of the new coil.

[ashtweth]

Sonic plugs are here

Guys we got given an iridium plug to test too, lets see how the Sonic/iridium plugs hold up to hydroxy/plasma.

Here they are, the orange type of tablets are some fuel additive that makes hydrogen, the irridium plugs got a bit of a deposit on them from being used with them

ImageShack - Image Hosting :: 0001195oh8.jpg
The brand new one is the sonic plug, these apparently use ultrasonics.


Ash

[Robert E.]

plasma plugs

Hi Robert,

How big is your CDI cap and what DC pumped up voltage are you using? I know that with only 2uF and 400 VDC I get a nasty plasma spark. A large cap just means huge current on the plug ... quite possibly too much current (heat) for the discharge area ... high thermal flux.

On materials: I come from the gas turbine engine field and am familiar with high temperature, high strength alloys "super alloys". They are mostly high nickel, chrome, cobalt with other trace elements. I'm thinking one of these alloys like one from the Hastelloy series, the Inconel series or some of the others will work well. These materials have superior oxidation resistance and strength at high temperature. I've welded many of these materials and in some respects they are easier and more forgiving to weld than other 'less super' alloys ... mostly because of their oxidation resistance. Plugs from these materials would likely stand up to the higher thermal flux induced by a plasma ignition system.

Just some thoughts,

Greg

I thought I answered this already but it must not have got in. My voltage was about 150 vdc and the cap is 3 uf oil filled. I use an inverter isolated and 60,000 volt protection with IN5408 string of diodes. Spark is good but not huge. Bob

[gmeast]

voltage, etc.

I thought I answered this already but it must not have got in. My voltage was about 150 vdc and the cap is 3 uf oil filled. I use an inverter isolated and 60,000 volt protection with IN5408 string of diodes. Spark is good but not huge. Bob

Hi Bob,

Sorry, it's possible it didn't register when I read it. Most of the folks who built the original replication of Luc's Water Spark Plug had to use a bigger cap like 22uF - 100 uF to get the 'water explosion" effect. But that was driving it straight with wall voltage at 120VAC through a full bridge. I'm curious ... when you say your spark is not "huge" is that at RPM or single shots on the test bench? I know that if the pairing is not right for R1 and C1 then C1 can get starved if R1 resistance is too high or deliver too much current to the spark (arcing - on top of the C1 delivery) if R1 resistance is too low.

Another thing that bugged me for a long time was the doubler performance on my early system(s). I found that the doubler's output would sag horribly as the RPM (demand) increased if the caps weren't big enough or the diodes inadequate. Before I built the one in VexUs-6 my swing was from 450 VDC to 230 VDC at 3,000 RPM (demand) and the plasma arc would disappear, but now it's only 450 VDC to390 VDC (or so) and the arc is strong throughout 'my' full range of testing ... idle to 3200 RPM.

Can you please show me how you are protecting the inverter and how you have isolated the plasma circuit from inverter ... you might have something there if you're not blowing up inverters ... and you're running the VexUs circuit ... would love to know.

Take care,

Greg

[gmeast]

video

Hi all,

I've posted a new vid showing the new nickel Firestorm with the VexUs circuit and exploding water mist. This is for Luc because he got mad at me for not spraying water on one of the beryllium-copper plugs a couple of videos back. You can actually see some finger flames in the video. I'll try and capture a couple and post them. I didn't see them until I reviewed the video on line ! #@%$#&$

Greg

vid is at:
YouTube - nickel VexUs H2O

Thanks,

Greg

[gmeast]

hydrogen-oxygen combustion finger flames

Hi everyone,

Here are the video frame captures from the water spray mist portion of my last video. There are countless of these FLAME FINGERS ... some into the camera and some on the far side of the plug. I was very thrilled to see these.

Peace,

Greg

[Raui]

Interesting Effect

This is probably slightly out of place as the bulk of you are discussing the engine however I only just was abit to obtain some diodes so I am trying a replication.

What I observed was when the diodes weren't connected it would spark the gap, when they were it wouldn't. I had left my multimeter on from testing my induction coil (It was set on 200v reading) settings.

When I closed the switch with the didoes from HV+ to LV+ the multimeter beeped (which it does when the potential difference between the probes exceeds 1000v). Bare in mind I checked that the leads weren't connected to anything and then I moved the leads well out of the way but I didn't move the multimeter. I still had the same effect in which the multimeter would beep.

Is this an effect of radiant energy, the diodes , something more elusive or something else? I could not give you circuit because my mother accidently kicked a lead when I called her over to look and the whole circuit came smashing to the ground

-Raui

[Robert E.]

spark

Hi Bob,

Sorry, it's possible it didn't register when I read it. Most of the folks who built the original replication of Luc's Water Spark Plug had to use a bigger cap like 22uF - 100 uF to get the 'water explosion" effect. But that was driving it straight with wall voltage at 120VAC through a full bridge. I'm curious ... when you say your spark is not "huge" is that at RPM or single shots on the test bench? I know that if the pairing is not right for R1 and C1 then C1 can get starved if R1 resistance is too high or deliver too much current to the spark (arcing - on top of the C1 delivery) if R1 resistance is too low.

Another thing that bugged me for a long time was the doubler performance on my early system(s). I found that the doubler's output would sag horribly as the RPM (demand) increased if the caps weren't big enough or the diodes inadequate. Before I built the one in VexUs-6 my swing was from 450 VDC to 230 VDC at 3,000 RPM (demand) and the plasma arc would disappear, but now it's only 450 VDC to390 VDC (or so) and the arc is strong throughout 'my' full range of testing ... idle to 3200 RPM.

Can you please show me how you are protecting the inverter and how you have isolated the plasma circuit from inverter ... you might have something there if you're not blowing up inverters ... and you're running the VexUs circuit ... would love to know.

Take care,

Greg

Greg, lets see if I can answer these questions. The spark I'm seeing is an added sparkplug running with the engine. The voltage from my current limiter is about 150 volt and the needle jiggles like it is getting pulses. I was scared to use a digital meter. My current limiter is only 5 ohms and the cap after that is 3 uf. My timing for charging and discharging is off I know. I tried a 500 ohm resistor and the spark was very week. I am learning here. When I rived the engine the spark stayed the same. I cain't remember if I checked the voltage with the engine rived up or not.???
Now as to how I protected the inverter. I had two transformers of 115 to 18 volts so I hooked them back to back so as to give 115 in and 115 out. I then put 60 diodes in series , (1N5408), to feed the voltage to the plug. I first tried a Black and Decker 400 watt inverter and it ran fine but when I shut it off it would not come back on for a few minutes.?? ( I was only pulling about 5 amps from the battery), It had a push on imbedded micro switch. I then tried my 1200 watt with a real switch on it and it ran ok. I got this inverter at Harbor freight. I have the parts to build the oscillator like yours but haven't got it built yet. I am just running the inverter to the transformers and then to a five doubler diodes set, five IN5408 in series. Two set of diodes to two 30 uf caps then to my 5 ohm current limiter to the 3 uf cap. I haven't figured out how to draw a schematic and put it on the forum yet. It's far from finished work yet I know. Bob

[gmeast]

Fire Fingers

Hi all,

Sorry for all of the posts ... can't help it ... I got so excited about the plasma arc-induced D.I. Water electrolysis and ensuing hydrogen-oxygen reaction I put together a short video compilation of the clearest events to share.

It's not big enough to waste on YouTube so you can douwnload it or open it. It was made with Movie Maker in XP. It's very generic but much higher quality than gets rendered on YouTube.

http://home.pacbell.net/gmeast/VW/vexus_sequence.wmv

Thanks. Peace,

Greg

[gmeast]

trying to figure it out

Greg, lets see if I can answer these questions. The spark I'm seeing is an added sparkplug running with the engine. The voltage from my current limiter is about 150 volt and the needle jiggles like it is getting pulses. I was scared to use a digital meter. My current limiter is only 5 ohms and the cap after that is 3 uf. My timing for charging and discharging is off I know. I tried a 500 ohm resistor and the spark was very week. I am learning here. When I rived the engine the spark stayed the same. I cain't remember if I checked the voltage with the engine rived up or not.???
Now as to how I protected the inverter. I had two transformers of 115 to 18 volts so I hooked them back to back so as to give 115 in and 115 out. I then put 60 diodes in series , (1N5408), to feed the voltage to the plug. I first tried a Black and Decker 400 watt inverter and it ran fine but when I shut it off it would not come back on for a few minutes.?? ( I was only pulling about 5 amps from the battery), It had a push on imbedded micro switch. I then tried my 1200 watt with a real switch on it and it ran ok. I got this inverter at Harbor freight. I have the parts to build the oscillator like yours but haven't got it built yet. I am just running the inverter to the transformers and then to a five doubler diodes set, five IN5408 in series. Two set of diodes to two 30 uf caps then to my 5 ohm current limiter to the 3 uf cap. I haven't figured out how to draw a schematic and put it on the forum yet. It's far from finished work yet I know. Bob

Hi Bob,

First I'd like to suggest the possibility that your doubler might not be supporting the throughput. To test this I'd like to recommend you bypass the doubler and replace it with a full bridge rectifier right out of your (essentially) isolation transformer. Also, your back to back xformers should have at least a 24 Watt rating ... 18 VAC @ 1.3A - 2.0A each. Even 150 VDC coming from the full wave bridge rectifier will blow up water mist. Your 5 ohm R1 might just cause arcing if things start to work and then you'll end up with a one-piece-plug all melted together. Try a 200 ohm resistor for R1. Too low a resistance R1 on C1 (cap) prevents C1 from discharging ... which is C1's primary function ... to discharge iow (stays charged all of the time).

If you are using the VexUs circuit then make sure the polarities are correct and the diode(s) point the right direction. Is your distributor a standard distributor with rotor and distributor?

I have included the basic circuit I first built without the doubler. I used a 100 watt store bought isolation transformer in its development. You should be able to home in on your component values with this. I have also included what the charge and discharge looks like on the cap C1. Obviously I'm showing only one spark plug and its diode ( that's actually 4 in parallel).

To me, it sound like the plug's demand

CAUTION: This might blow up cheap inverters and trigger ground fault on more sophisticated ones ... it's why I went to non-processor based, simple 4-transistor oscillator. I think the circuit doesn't like CMOS.

CAUTION: Please be careful of the high voltage.

Greg