Water Sparkplug

[elias]

Elias
The effect would need to occur at high frequency for it to be utilised in an ICE. By high freq I mean up to 100Hz.
(3000rpm = 50 Hz). So far I have only seen the radiant effect occur with relay circuits at say 1-2 Hz. This has to be solved before the circuit can have wider applications.

Gazza

No I have seen this effect at higher frequencies, relays can work at 100Hz but the result I had was burning of the contacts due to fast sparks. I think that we'd better find a solid state way to do this much efficiently.

[CitizenDC]

Hello Guys,

I constructed a simple cap-charge discharge circuit as described in this thread and while experimenting I noticed that when using the diodes, the flash coming out of the plug looks like the plasma/arc I saw when one discharges a HV capacitor.

This leads me to believe that part of the cap's potential is being discharged through to the spark plug along with the ignition-coils HV output, and by looking at the simplified circuit design, this is possible.
As the ignition coil's primary gets saturated, any charge remaining in the cap will travel to the plug via the primary-diode-secondary circuit path and together with the HV output to form the large flashing-spark I am seeing.

Another point I noticed is that after discharge my capacitor is not depleted. There is often some residual voltage left, usually 10v. (250V 470uf cap used).
I'll experiment with lower uf HV caps soon and compare the results.

cheers!

[Ahchoooo]

The plasma spark has a frequency to it

........ But when I turned the second variac ON, I again observed the smoke from the discharges and a brilliant white big flash, just as bright or even brighter than before. The interesting part is that the spark loudness did not increase, the loudness was the same as in an ordinary cap discharge with no booster cap at all. This is strange. If you get such bright and strong sparks, you would expect a GRAND bang, but the discharges are quiet.

I kept increasing the second variac voltage. I got up to 170V and the on the first flash the automatic fuse blew and the room went dark. After switching the fuse ON again, I checked the circuit and it all worked fine, as long as I did not go too high on the booster cap voltage. I noticed that when the second variac was ON, the brilliant flashes did not appear on every discharge, but the higher the voltage was on the booster side, the more often the flash appeared and when it fired I could hear a ringing sound from my variac, as if the variac coils would be hit (somehow) by this high voltage blast. The greater the voltage on the booster side, the greater the ringing sound from the variac till the voltage is too high and the fuse blows.

I noticed the same thing! When the booster capacitor was connected, smoke could be seen coming out from the spark plug tip, indicating something was definitely burning. Also, the brilliant flashes did not appear on every discharge. When I adjusted the frequency of the firing, I was able to increase or decrease the number of flashes. This reminded me of an interference wave between 2 frequencies. By just adjusting the frequency of firing, I can modify the interference wave. At one particular frequency (4.88Hz), I was able to get the most flashes with the bangs, missing out only on a few. This is a very strong indication that the plasma output has a frequency to it, and if that frequency is in harmony with the spark frequency, I get the most bright flashes with each bang.

Another thing I noticed was that my spark plug did get hot after running for about 15 to 20 minutes, hot enough to hurt my fingers. Of course, if I sprayed water on the tip, it tended to cool down the plug. Another possible reason why my plug was hot was because I used the same variac on both the primary capacitor and the booster capacitor. Since I needed the voltage on the booster capacitor to be about 150V, my primary capacitor also end up with the same voltage. That might have caused a higher current on the HV discharge.

My primary capacitor is 330uF @450V, and my booster capacitor used are 4.5uF, 10uF and 47uF. They all seemed to perform the same.

[Dread]

Anyone having success with submerged plug?

...Either in electrolyte or water. If so what modifications were or would be necessary to the circuit?

rgds
D.

[Aaron]

cap sizes

My primary capacitor is 330uF @450V, and my booster capacitor used are 4.5uF, 10uF and 47uF. They all seemed to perform the same.

You might get better results using the 330uf cap as the booster and use the smaller uf one on the primary side.

My original test was with the same variac charging both the primary cap and booster cap.

After, I used a separate power supply to charge the booster. A microwave power supply. This is probably unnecessary but was to demonstrate a point.

[Ahchoooo]

You might get better results using the 330uf cap as the booster and use the smaller uf one on the primary side.

My original test was with the same variac charging both the primary cap and booster cap.

After, I used a separate power supply to charge the booster. A microwave power supply. This is probably unnecessary but was to demonstrate a point.

Hi Aaron,

I thought I heard from you (or Luc) from somewhere that the booster cap can be as small as 2uF, and it is the voltage on the booster cap that makes the difference! I would imagine that the primary cap has to be larger since I am basically running a CDI. I will give your suggestion a try.

On a different note, I noticed that on the Gray's circuit, his radiant energy part of the circuit is isolated from the main circuit with a capacitor, indicating that the radiant energy must be AC instead of DC. Can you comment on that? Have you tried to duplicate the Gray device? I did, but it didn't work for me. May be this new discovery from you and Luc will help in that also?

[Ahchoooo]

Hi Aaron,

OK, I tried it with a booster cap of 330uF 450V, and the flash and bang got louder! With the higher capacitor, there were fewer misses and the bang was louder. However, everything from my HV diodes, spark plug, booster cap all got very hot after running for about 5 minutes! Even the central electrode of the spark plug shrinked by about half (from new), indicating that the smoke observed might have been the burning of the central electrode. The heat must be intense to have that effect! With the higher booster cap, even spraying the spark plug with water did not seem to cool it down!

[Aaron]

spark and caps

Ahchoooo,

Luc first did it with 2uf but that is with the inverter's output through a bridge and hv diodes to the hv+ so it wasn't the 2uf cap that made the effect by itself, that was simply the capacitive discharge into primary so that the secondary release hits a hv diode going to the inverter's +.

The only difference between what Luc did there and what Peter and I have done is that we used caps in parallel with the bridge's output.

You can have a pretty small cap on the front side...I'm sticking to a minimum of 47uf and it gets charged to about 150-160 volts from the wall or variac through a bridge...and no diode leaving this cap.

Then a good size booster cap on the backside parallel with the plug/coil.

I don't know why yours is getting hot. We did have trouble with one plug that had the J electrode snipped in half but I think it was because a burr was sticking out somewhere and was taking the assault. I've put over 1000v as a booster with this method and the only thing that happened to the plug is that there was discoloration to the positive electrode at the gap but no visible wear. I'd have to bend back the ground electrode and look at it with a magnifying glass or microscope to see the real condition.

Also, it didn't get hot either. There may have been some warmth but not really noticable.

With 47uf/150v on the primary and booster cap dumps a little over 1000v, the spark was way bigger than what the Firestorm plugs look like even under compression. I'm referring to the animated gif of Robert Krupas plug test that is posted around the net.

That just goes to show that it is probably very unnecessary to even get it this big.

With Capacitor 70's setup on the working model of the bike engine...if he just has capacitive discharge on the front side instead of having the magneto simply trigger a 12v input, I think his bike motor will probably run.

His inverter shows 230v I believe meaning the cap of 330uf/400v is probably charging to around 300v. Besides the 12v input to the ignition coil triggered by magneto signal, 300v/330uf is all that was necessary to make the motor run on water as he shows in the vids.

I would recommend everyone looking at motorcycle CDI systems online. Many are already set to take a trigger pulse from the magneto. So if you want to work on lawnmowers, bikes, generators, etc... this is probably the way to go for the ignition system...then simply put a booster cap on the back side like Capacitor 70 and you'll probably be much closer.

[elias]

Hi Aaron,

OK, I tried it with a booster cap of 330uF 450V, and the flash and bang got louder! With the higher capacitor, there were fewer misses and the bang was louder. However, everything from my HV diodes, spark plug, booster cap all got very hot after running for about 5 minutes! Even the central electrode of the spark plug shrinked by about half (from new), indicating that the smoke observed might have been the burning of the central electrode. The heat must be intense to have that effect! With the higher booster cap, even spraying the spark plug with water did not seem to cool it down!

I have the hot capacitor problem too.

[Ahchoooo]

Ahchoooo,

Luc first did it with 2uf but that is with the inverter's output through a bridge and hv diodes to the hv+ so it wasn't the 2uf cap that made the effect by itself, that was simply the capacitive discharge into primary so that the secondary release hits a hv diode going to the inverter's +.

The only difference between what Luc did there and what Peter and I have bone done is that we used caps in parallel with the bridge's output.

You can have a pretty small cap on the front side...I'm sticking to a minimum of 47uf and it gets charged to about 150-160 volts from the wall or variac through a bridge...and no diode leaving this cap.

Then a good size booster cap on the backside parallel with the plug/coil.

I don't know why yours is getting hot. We did have trouble with one plug that had the J electrode snipped in half but I think it was because a burr was sticking out somewhere and was taking the assault. I've put over 1000v as a booster with this method and the only thing that happened to the plug is that there was discoloration to the positive electrode at the gap but no visible wear. I'd have to bend back the ground electrode and look at it with a magnifying glass or microscope to see the real condition.

Also, it didn't get hot either. There may have been some warmth but not really noticable.

With 47uf/150v on the primary and booster cap dumps a little over 1000v, the spark was way bigger than what the Firestorm plugs look like even under compression. I'm referring to the animated gif of Robert Krupas plug test that is posted around the net.

That just goes to show that it is probably very unnecessary to even get it this big.

With Capacitor 70's setup on the working model of the bike engine...if he just has capacitive discharge on the front side instead of having the magneto simply trigger a 12v input, I think his bike motor will probably run.

His inverter shows 230v I believe meaning the cap of 330uf/400v is probably charging to around 300v. Besides the 12v input to the ignition coil triggered by magneto signal, 300v/330uf is all that was necessary to make the motor run on water as he shows in the vids.

I would recommend everyone looking at motorcycle CDI systems online. Many are already set to take a trigger pulse from the magneto. So if you want to work on lawnmowers, bikes, generators, etc... this is probably the way to go for the ignition system...then simply put a booster cap on the back side like Capacitor 70 and you'll probably be much closer.

Hi Aaron,

Luc's original circuit is a little difficult to visualize, when compared with your's. So I am using your circuit in my testing. I can now also see that your circuit is exactly the same as the one Capacitor70 used in his moped testing (the circuit with the HV diode)! Great minds think alike! I am planning to try this circuit out on a bike too.

It is interesting that your plug did not get hot like mine. How about other experimenters? I think Jetijs's plug must also be hot since he saw smoke coming out. Am I right, Jetijs? Another area of concern is that my capacitors and HV diodes are also getting hot. What about yours?

On another note, do you know the specs of the HV diode that is best suited for this application? I just ordered a 50KV 2A diode. Do you think it will work? How about the power requirement of the 220V inverter? I don't know how to calculate it. Hope you can shed some light on it.

[Peter Lindemann]

Question on Diodes

Jetijs,

Aaron and I have blown my whole collection of microwave diodes. I noticed in one of your posts last week that you were using a twin string of 16 1N5408 to make a diode of 16KV @ 6 amps. How have these diodes held up? Have you blown any of these strings yet with your experiments? Please let us know. Thanks.

Peter

[lighty]

@Peter

You ought to contact Aaron regarding proven types of diodes, diode stacks, sources and pricing.

[Aaron]

caps

Ahchoooo,

Not sure why your cap is getting hot. Diodes? Yes, one time they fizzled and popped like batter in a deep fryer, literally.

Those diodes were 12kv 350ma rating and we had 2 in series.

We were looking at some monster diodes but will be cheaper with Jetijs' diodes. 1000v 6amp. If they work as well as a 20-30kv/3-6amp rating, we'll use those for testing. For convenience later, I'll probably get a monster one just so it isn't as cumbersome.

The main difference between Capacitor 70's circuit and mine with the booster cap is that I'm using capacitive discharge on the primary of the ignition coil and he is just pulsing 12v into it.

[rickoff]

Capacitor70 diode circuit rep spark photo

I just received a photo done by fulltilt@gmail.com, which shows the spark produced in his replication of the Capacitor70 diode circuit which was used for his working motorbike videos on YouTube. You can see it here:
Tiltfull spark experiment.jpg - Windows Live SkyDrive
Capacitor 70 has since modified the circuit to reduce or eliminate the diodes, by using an 8p:24s transformer which is pulsed by capacitors through a spark gap to the primary winding. He has had the bike running on this modified circuit, and is tweaking it for improved results. He is also preparing to run a test on the motorbike adding in Hydrogen, and plans on utilizing a water injection spark plug design of the Stan Meyer type.

Best, Rickoff

[Jetijs]

Jetijs,

Aaron and I have blown my whole collection of microwave diodes. I noticed in one of your posts last week that you were using a twin string of 16 1N5408 to make a diode of 16KV @ 6 amps. How have these diodes held up? Have you blown any of these strings yet with your experiments? Please let us know. Thanks.

Peter

Peter,
I haven't been experimenting since then, because I am still busy with my other project, but at that evening we made numerous discharges at various voltages, both with the booster cap and without it. We even managed to blow the room fuses, but both diode arrays are still in tact. At first I tried a microwave oven diode, but I did get only one spark discharge (at this time I did not use any booster caps, just the basic cap discharge circuit) and then nothing happened anymore. The same happened when I used a 30kV 0.1A diode. I am afraid that I burned them. Anyway, so far the array of many 3A1000v diodes seems to work very well