Water Sparkplug

[poii]

Greg

Yes, even 50 times in 30sec with the cap dead shorted. Is the MOT sec limimiting the current?

I tried this circut to get around the problems with inverters whilst driving with
12v, since we're moving towards putting this on the road. And I had the MOT.

ps.
Thanks Aaron for the igniter patents. I haven't heard anyone speak to them
on this page when discussing igniters. Seems like they have to be right to get the most bang for the buck (converter).

[tstorey]

Lee about Video #3

Your vids are a big help.

Number III the shows the effect at 12V 1 amp and a 12mm gap....(yes?)

Anyway no water added.

I have a question that you may or may not be able to answer or attempt.

For that matter anyone here is free to take a stab at it as I am a couple weeks away myself.

The temperature at the tip of the electrode is the ambient temp in the "shop."

I am guessing 72 degrees F with relatively low humidity.

If you could heat the air at the trode it might help with a conclusion or two.

The air at the tip is the speed of the particulate and I believe will influence the effect. I do not believe that the effect is enhanced in the combustion chamber of any of the ICE apps we have seen as the fuels and heat under compression are a radically different atmosphere than the air in the workshop.
Thus changing the work the discharge has to do.

I will eventually be able to do this, but, if the air at the tip of the trode could be hotter....say 100 degrees to 150 degrees and see if this has an observable impact that would be a finding. I don't know if it is in fact a "rush" of air whether this serves or not as the rush may produce another result from "still" 150 degree air.

The environment where the discharge takes place is what in fact is being altered by the discharge. Maybe, take a shot at altering the environment. The discharge is using energy to "alter" the air at the trode. When we add water mist we alter the air at the trode and we most certainly alter the effect itself. What if we alter the temp of the air at the trode? This will change the "work" the discharge has to do with the 70 degree air to 150 degree air. I suggest we might see a difference.


Best to all,

T

[K1w1]

water as fuel - progress

@peteroks

I can understand your frustration and agree that the progress is currently focused on details that are not the most exciting but I think the experimentation that is being done is very important for the long run.

Keep up the good work guys. All of us on the sidelines are eagerly awaiting the results you are posting. It's an exiting project to be involved in.

We are all cheering you on to the end goal.

[gmeast]

sidelines

@peteroks

I can understand your frustration and agree that the progress is currently focused on details that are not the most exciting but I think the experimentation that is being done is very important for the long run.

Keep up the good work guys. All of us on the sidelines are eagerly awaiting the results you are posting. It's an exiting project to be involved in.

We are all cheering you on to the end goal.

Hi K1w1,

Thanks for the encouragement. We often forget how many people are actually watching these posts. There's frustration everywhere. Considering that the budget for this research is in the red from the start it can only be a passion of sorts that drives us to spend our own hard earned cash and time on this stuff. For me there's nothing more satisfying than putting something together and having it NOT SMOKE!

Peace,

Greg

[Gibs]

Hi all,

Keep up workin' on it, the accomplishment will be done soon.


Here is comments on some quotes:

Hi Gibs,

I can't take credit for those last couple posts on waste spark, I just pasted it from a word doc...

Thanks anyway Aaron for providing these valuable infos.

Hi all,...

...The latest post I've shared shows a circuit producing the effect at a rate of 60Hz - or 1/60th of a second being equivalent to a single cylinder B. & S. going 7,200 RPM! It does not have long strings of diodes and light bulbs. It is condensed but still produces the effect. It consumes 65 Watts and that's a little high but that will come down.

I think there is plenty of direction in this thread. I think people are learning and building things that otherwise would not be learned or built.

And thank you Aaron for starting this thread in the first place!

Again:

YouTube - sgnature trace

Peace,

Greg

Congratulations Greg, 65 Watts is not that much power to produce the effect and I think that your circuit deserve more consideration.

As an example, on a 1000 Watts gen there would be 935 Watts left of usable energy!

Have you exploded water with your setup yet?

...That means that we indeed need to solve the waste spark issue. My favorite solution so far is a 2:1 gear system...

...So we need to use a gear system with 2:1 tooth ratio. I found that there is a perfect 2:1 gearing in a lawnmover engine. This is what controls the valve opening/closing time.

So maybe we can figure out a clever way to use these....

Hi Jetijs, The waste spark issue makes me think a lot these last couple of days and the easiest answer that I came up with yet is this:

First I should mention that we would get 4x more precise timing by picking up the crankshaft position for firing instead of the camshaft, mostly because of the radius where is located the point of reference vs speed of rotation.
But, by installing a neodymium magnet on the camshaft (or on the intake valve) and a reed (or hall effect) switch on the outside, we are able to reset a flip-flop and with the same arrangement on the crankshaft, we can achieve the right timing by sending a pulse to the flip-flop input, thus cancelling the wasted spark...
Or, we can use the waste spark to recharge the capacitor, this way it's not "wasted" anymore.

So its one spark to the coil, one spark to the capacitor, reset and so on.

Just thinking out loud...

Greg et al


... I have a small MOT, microswitched 12v on the pri, sec charging a 15mf cap to 307v through a 1n4007. With a 2n6054 darlington switch on pri, charge is 288v.

Thanks to all for a most interesting and civil forum.

Hi Poii and

You have a promising arrangement there. What is the switching frequency of your supply?

Thanks.

Peace everyone

[poii]

Gibs

Right now it's manually switched, microswitch, bolth with and without the
darlington. A friend is lending me a scope tomorrow, so I was going to poke (probe) around to get a better idea of what is going on and build a driver.
The darlington or a mosfet (lower v drop) could be hall or reed switched from the engine.

Thanksforthewelcome

[poii]

ps.

Jetijs

I thought a proximity sensor inhibit on the intake valve train to turn off the waste spark on an OHV engine would be easiest.

Tstorey

Last week I saw a "spark trap" (spark gap and pressure gage in a 3/4" bore x 1-1/2" stroke acrylic cylinder with piston/o-ring, hand compressed) for $5.00 at a Harborfreight store, but I could not find it at Harborfreight.com.

[tstorey]

Thanks Poli.

A Klystron would be cool....but they cost more than my parent's first house.

T

[tstorey]

Plasma pressure test from retrod1

All,

"Making the shock wave do things."

Retrod1 has done his marble tests using the WSP. This is about a 2 weeks old...take a look. Highly entertaining and informing.

YouTube - Jumping Marble in Plastic Tube

Interestingly enough he "drowns" the spark with a lot of water, but, the spark recovers quickly.

In the world of "moving marbles" I'd say an inch without water and 3 to 4 inches with.....400%?

Best,

T

[gmeast]

best way to do it

Hi all,

Keep up workin' on it, the accomplishment will be done soon.


Here is comments on some quotes:




Thanks anyway Aaron for providing these valuable infos.





Congratulations Greg, 65 Watts is not that much power to produce the effect and I think that your circuit deserve more consideration.

As an example, on a 1000 Watts gen there would be 935 Watts left of usable energy!

Have you exploded water with your setup yet?





Hi Jetijs, The waste spark issue makes me think a lot these last couple of days and the easiest answer that I came up with yet is this:

First I should mention that we would get 4x more precise timing by picking up the crankshaft position for firing instead of the camshaft, mostly because of the radius where is located the point of reference vs speed of rotation.
But, by installing a neodymium magnet on the camshaft (or on the intake valve) and a reed (or hall effect) switch on the outside, we are able to reset a flip-flop and with the same arrangement on the crankshaft, we can achieve the right timing by sending a pulse to the flip-flop input, thus cancelling the wasted spark...
Or, we can use the waste spark to recharge the capacitor, this way it's not "wasted" anymore.

So its one spark to the coil, one spark to the capacitor, reset and so on.

Just thinking out loud...



Hi Poii and

You have a promising arrangement there. What is the switching frequency of your supply?

Thanks.

Peace everyone

Hi Gibs,

Yes , the circuit in the video achieves the effect. And your description on a simple way to synchronize the control circuitry makes huge sense. The concept of using a pickup on the intake valve or cam to sequence and que the circuit for the next crank position sounds perfect!. I will build one. However, I was looking at the magneto and valve timing on my genset and the intake valve opens well after the 'waste' spark occurs. This is a design feature of small magneto spark engines. Bigger engines have the more ideal valve opening & timing.

A more 'ideal' arrangement is preferred (above).

Peace,

Greg

[gmeast]

new video showing simple Triacs & Reed Switches

Hi all,

I have posted a new video showing the beginnigs of a simple circuit based on two Triacs controlled by reed switches. It has the potential for achieving the effect while having a low overhead.

178VDC charge voltage at the Cap. Very few components. Good for much higher voltages too.

The videa is at:
YouTube - Triac Water Spark Plug - Reed Swith Control

Peace,

Greg

[Gibs]

Timing

Hi Gibs,

... However, I was looking at the magneto and valve timing on my genset and the intake valve opens well after the 'waste' spark occurs. This is a design feature of small magneto spark engines. Bigger engines have the more ideal valve opening & timing.

A more 'ideal' arrangement is preferred (above).

Peace,

Greg

Hi Greg,
In theory the waste spark should not occur before the intake valve opening, practically it happens because there's advance in the timing. As we know, with water as fuel we need to retard the spark event, so it should work after timing mod.

Take care.

[gmeast]

timing

Hi Greg,
In theory the waste spark should not occur before the intake valve opening, practically it happens because there's advance in the timing. As we know, with water as fuel we need to retard the spark event, so it should work after timing mod.

Take care.

Hi Gibs,

Has anyone determined what the retard setting should be? No one has gotten that far yet have they? Like earlier, it's better to have an 'ideal' situation rather than fight it. I was just saying I was amazed by how late the intake valve opens as compared to the theoretical and in large engines. Anyway, the answer is as has been suggested, and that is to make a 'virtual external cam' to trigger from like in your post.

Peace,

Greg

[Ursine]

I've been looking for a small inexpensive 4 stroke engine to do some hho and hho/water mist experiments. I picked up a 26cc 4 stroke trimmer at Lowes for $149.00. Small and cheap enough not to be too worried about trashing it. I haven't gotten it fully dissambled yet, but it shouldn't be too difficult to mount a sensor on the shaft. It has overhead cams that are easy to access also. 16" 26 CC Gas String Trimmer

Dave

[gotoluc]

Hi all,

I have posted a new video showing the beginnigs of a simple circuit based on two Triacs controlled by reed switches. It has the potential for achieving the effect while having a low overhead.

178VDC charge voltage at the Cap. Very few components. Good for much higher voltages too.

The videa is at:
YouTube - Triac Water Spark Plug - Reed Swith Control

Peace,

Greg

Excellent demo Greg I really like simple but effective circuits. You are ready to apply this to a lawn mower engine.

Excellent work, design and video.

Luc