Water Sparkplug

[Turbo98]

I thought the idea with the plasma is to have an as unobstructed path to the cylinder as possible. It seems that the Firestorm replicas have a lot of metal in the way. From what I've seen, the Aquapulser produces a pretty impressive spark with a standard style spark plug. I can understand testing the LPG Brisk as they have a unique open design but would think the Firestorm replicas aren't needed. Maybe I'm missing something.

[rosco1]

You're right...

I thought the idea with the plasma is to have an as unobstructed path to the cylinder as possible. It seems that the Firestorm replicas have a lot of metal in the way. From what I've seen, the Aquapulser produces a pretty impressive spark with a standard style spark plug. I can understand testing the LPG Brisk as they have a unique open design but would think the Firestorm replicas aren't needed. Maybe I'm missing something.

The Brisk LGS is a great design, no question. I run LGS exclusively in all our cars here, as many of you already know, but they're resistor plugs, thus they can't do what I ask of them.

Brisk have kindly made available a set of non resistor LGS plugs for my tests, and as soon as they arrive, they'll be employed along with the RPG 4700.

The Firestorm does have it's advantages, and until you've tried them yourself, you can't fully appreciate what they can do in a lean environment.

Don't pay too much attention to that 17 second video I posted on Youtube, that was just a test plug, and that cage is double the thickness of the cages of the actual plugs I run in the engine. It's just handy to grab that plug and use it to see what's going on, rather than pulling a plug whenever I wish to view the spark and plasma events.

That ball tip and cage has allowed me to view the HI6 and PS91 spark at the same time as the plasma, meaning that they appear to be crossing at the same time. Yes, I'm saying they are not merging, which is interesting in itself.

Not sure that point could have been noticed with many other plug styles.

Not sure what it may lead to, but what if another plasma were run in parallel, perhaps of a different strength?? Would they merge?

[Turbo98]

The Brisk LGS is a great design, no question. I run LGS exclusively in all our cars here, as many of you already know, but they're resistor plugs, thus they can't do what I ask of them.

Brisk have kindly made available a set of non resistor LGS plugs for my tests, and as soon as they arrive, they'll be employed along with the RPG 4700.

The Firestorm does have it's advantages, and until you've tried them yourself, you can't fully appreciate what they can do in a lean environment.

Don't pay too much attention to that 17 second video I posted on Youtube, that was just a test plug, and that cage is double the thickness of the cages of the actual plugs I run in the engine. It's just handy to grab that plug and use it to see what's going on, rather than pulling a plug whenever I wish to view the spark and plasma events.

That ball tip and cage has allowed me to view the HI6 and PS91 spark at the same time as the plasma, meaning that they appear to be crossing at the same time. Yes, I'm saying they are not merging, which is interesting in itself.

Not sure that point could have been noticed with many other plug styles.

Not sure what it may lead to, but what if another plasma were run in parallel, perhaps of a different strength?? Would they merge?

Interesting..... So have you tested the Firestorm type with the RPG plasma vs. a conventional plug with RPG plasma in the engine to see the difference?

[wes77]

has anyone thought of doing this? (off topic, but related...)

I was wondering if something like this would work (see attachment)? Electrohydraulic metal forming is proven to work consistently and this very basic design is based on that idea.

I read this somewhere and thought... why not try this approach?

"Faraday had discovered over a hundred years ago that an electric arc explodes louder through a water mist than through normal air. Others since have created water explosions with high voltage arcs. Since 1950 this phenomena has been used in sheet metal forming. In the process a female mold is sealed against a hollow chamber with a metal sheet on the bottom. The chamber is filled with water and then electrodes are fired with a high voltage charge. The force of the water reacting to the electric charge forms the sheet metal against the female die part.

Researchers for a mining institute discovered that the force the water exerts is 156% of the power input through the charge and that after multiple firings there was neither a pressure nor temperature increase in the water. This would make it appear that all of the energy input to the system is released as kinetic force as well as the 56% overunity energy."


Regarding the design in the pdf... I'm not positive about the return stroke of the diaphram, but from what I understand, when the spark discharge takes place in metal forming, once the event is over, there is no remaining increase in volume or pressure so unless I'm missing something, it should return on it's own? If not, I assume there is some way to make it return.

I just wanted to post this in case people hadn't thought of it. If there is a fatal flaw (very possible) let me know as I am not schooled in mathematics or physics and understand there may be many reasons why this wouldn't work. But if it is workable, and any obvious problems can be resolved, it might be worth looking into.

If the efficiency claimed by the mining researchers is close to accurate, this type of system might be able to be looped if the other system components are efficient enough, not sure what efficiencies are possible with pumps and motors/turbines. I just know an IC engine is about 40% efficient at best.

Anyway, just thought I would share.

[rosco1]

No, I haven't...

Interesting..... So have you tested the Firestorm type with the RPG plasma vs. a conventional plug with RPG plasma in the engine to see the difference?

I couldn't see the point.

Plasma is a very different animal to spark, so rather than look at the somewhat restrictive "J" gapped plugs, we've opted to look for a plug style which would specifically target and exploit plasma.

Look at the Brisk LGS design, it would allow unrestricted pluming, around the entire plug base area, this is something a "J" gap plug simply cannot do. Of course non resistor LGS plugs aren't freely available, so these plugs are an unknown performer at this point.

There's quite a bit more to it than that, but until we've had the opportunity to test it, it's prudent just to keep quiet. Just in case it's a dud!

[Turbo98]

Yeah, I understand. I do see what you are saying. I've looked at the Brisk also and it does appear it would work well. Guess you're tests will show it.

[rosco1]

My testing has ceased for the moment

Yeah, I understand. I do see what you are saying. I've looked at the Brisk also and it does appear it would work well. Guess you're tests will show it.

The resistorless Brisk LGS styled plugs have cleared Customs and have been delivered to me, but sadly I'll not be able to test them with plasma for about 3 more weeks.

I'm very much wrapped around the axle of another custom made plug design at this time, and until that has been seen through to it's conclusion, I'll not have time to test further.

[elias]

Some advice needed

Hello all,

I have started to experiment with the Water sparkplug circuit again. The problem I am facing is the fact that when the sparkplug gets wet it starts sparking intermittently.

If anybody could give me some advice from their experiences to help me convert a model airplane engine to run on water I'd be grateful.

I am planning to buy one of these miniature engines to start experimenting:
:: Tehran Hobby ::

Water explosion truly gives a good "kick" especially with high voltage and capacitor values, I may start running the motor with steam and moving to see if It can be run with water alone.

This may be a good jump place to make a car run on water.

Thanks beforehand ...

Elias

[Xack]

Hello all,

I have started to experiment with the Water sparkplug circuit again. The problem I am facing is the fact that when the sparkplug gets wet it starts sparking intermittently.

If anybody could give me some advice from their experiences to help me convert a model airplane engine to run on water I'd be grateful.

I am planning to buy one of these miniature engines to start experimenting:
:: Tehran Hobby ::

Water explosion truly gives a good "kick" especially with high voltage and capacitor values, I may start running the motor with steam and moving to see if It can be run with water alone.

This may be a good jump place to make a car run on water.

Thanks beforehand ...

Elias

Elias,
2 cycle engines need oil in the fuel to lubricate the surfaces. Otherwise even if you do get the steam to work as a fuel you'll need to mist oil in the intake. Since oil and water don't mix you'll need an active mixer in your system for an emulsion or a dual injector for both. That will cause ignition problems depending on the mix ratio. It seems a bit much to deal with plus getting the water to burn in the first place. I would suggest a small 4 cycle engine. Pardon me if you had already made that assessment. You had suggested "model airplane engine" which leads me to think 2 cycle.

Good luck with the model engine testing.

Xack

[elias]

Thanks Xack,

I was planning to buy a very small engine, which I think I may be able to lubricate it by hand at first, and then start it using water, The engine I decided to buy is very small and is priced at about 40$. It is about 5cm in height and about 6cm in length. I didn't think that any sophisticated lubrication may be necessary. My main problem is with the spark-plug itself, I wonder if you guys have been able to fix the intermittent ignition of water problem. I guess the water on the spark plug makes the impedance of the spark gap go higher and make the it more difficult for the plasma effect to happen.

I don't even want to make it run only on water. I am planning to see if:
1- Water can run the machine, even if the input of the electricity exceeds the mechanical output.
2- If so, then see if it can be optimized to make it charge its input as well as running the motor.
3- See if this concept can be utilized in a larger scale.


Elias

[Xack]

Thanks Xack,

I was planning to buy a very small engine, which I think I may be able to lubricate it by hand at first, and then start it using water, The engine I decided to buy is very small and is priced at about 40$. It is about 5cm in height and about 6cm in length. I didn't think that any sophisticated lubrication may be necessary. My main problem is with the spark-plug itself, I wonder if you guys have been able to fix the intermittent ignition of water problem. I guess the water on the spark plug makes the impedance of the spark gap go higher and make the it more difficult for the plasma effect to happen.

I don't even want to make it run only on water. I am planning to see if:
1- Water can run the machine, even if the input of the electricity exceeds the mechanical output.
2- If so, then see if it can be optimized to make it charge its input as well as running the motor.
3- See if this concept can be utilized in a larger scale.


Elias

Elias,
You certainly can do what you like. those little 2 cycle engines don't have "spark plugs" but are designed on the deisel principal. They have glow plugs in order to heat the fuel for ease of starting. Your also going to have to retrofit an ignition and timing mechanism plus also design a tiny spark plug to host the "plasma". Your tiny spark plug will soon get eat up by the plasma as well. Take it for what it's worth, I belive your best bet would be to get a small 4 stroke weed eater engine. All your ignition components are present plus it's already designed to burn gasoline.

Good luck
Xack

[elias]

Thanks Xack, you made me change my mind on buying a small motor like that, but I still have the problem of intermittent water explosion, I wonder anyone has been able to get a blast every time the plasma fires.

[wes77]

blast every time the plasma fires

see post 2689

This is a big reason why I posted. Like I mention in the above post, I'm not sure if my design would work without modification or improvement, but from what I understand, they don't have problems with wet fouling the electrodes in electro-hydraulic metal forming. They are submerged and when they fire, the water moves with enough force to bend metal. Why not try to harness this tested/proven method? Submerged electrodes and hydraulic output... possibly in the form of a electro-hydraulic pump?

Worth a shot? or if no, why not?

[Xack]

stoichiometry is why

The arc under water creates HHO. When HHO is "ignited" it's in a perfect stoichiometry. 2 H's and 1 O's. This renders H2O, Meaning that what your getting is an "Emplosion" and water, not an "Explosion". It reduces the bubble back into the surrounding water. You need to introduce more Oxygen Nitrogen in order to get a massive release of energy. Fill a ballon with HHO and ignite it. When the flame pops the balloon initially you get an inrush of air. That new mixture renders a deafening compression wave you can feel 10 meters away. Under water, it's just HHO from the bubble you just made. It's not the same chemistry which produces the BOOM.

Xack

[alsy]

Xack,

there may very well be some level of HHO generated, but i am not convinced of HHO from plasma as being a primary cause of movement or pressure changes for either the electro-hydraulic pump, or s1r9a9m9's water car.

I think that if it was due to an implosion from HHO, there would also be an explosion related to that as well. The following was an experiment (by someone else) with implosion in a small engine. looks like the sort of engine one might find in one of those hand held grass cutters/ trimmers. YouTube - Imploding Piston

The same user has a video with a balloon stretched over a pipe that is generating HHO inside.
YouTube - YouTube - HHO balloon ignition test
It is set up to trigger ignition about every 10 seconds. First there is an explosion, and then an implosion. It shows the balloon going further into vacuum each time. I am thinking it is possible that some portion is being let out during the expansion time, due to leaking past the balloon. The balloon is stretched over it but there is nothing to prevent leaking out in expansion, beyond elasticity of the balloon over it.

I had seen claims some time ago that the expansion rate in the explosion of HHO is rather small. That is, small compared to expansion and contraction abilities of either.
-Water to steam
-Steam condensing to water
-HHO expanding in electrolysis. I think the current density is too low to create enough HHO to be a primary causation for expansion, or implosion if that happens to be the case. (which as i said, i do not believe to be as likely a primary cause)

Water has a great expansion ability. I have not seen any figures for what ignited hydrogen can expand to in the expansion part before implosion. It makes more sense to me that in the electro-hydraulic pump, and s1r9a9m9's water car, there is plasma creating heat, and that the primary force occurring is from the expansion of water in turning into steam.

@ 1 standard atmosphere of pressure and pretty close to 100 Celsius (or whatever boiling point is in degrees F), water expands something around 1700 times. At 10 atmospheres, it is about 240 times. That is still impressive.

This shows the volume density of steam at different pressures.
Properties of Saturated Steam - Pressure in Bar