Water Sparkplug

[rickoff]

Reply to Elias

Hi Elias,

You are quite right, and the only reason I posted that information was because Aaron had done some experimentation spraying salt water on the arc, and wondered about the properties of salt water that caused the water to completely burn off instead of reforming to water after the arc is completed. You certainly wouldn't want to introduce any salt unless you were absolutely sure that it would not leave traces that could cause corrosion and pitting in the cylinder sleeves, cylinder head, piston rings, and valve facings.

With the Kanzius method that I mentioned, the salt water does burn completely without leaving traces, so that shows that it is possible. And keep in mind that Daniel Dingel and Fransico Pacheco both used sea water for a greatly improved Hydrogen generation process to use in running an ICE. You would tend to think that there would be some salt in vapors entering the engine, along with the Hydrogen, but the intensity of the burn appears to take care of that with no problem. Still, I wouldn't suggest that anyone try introducing salt water to their automobile engine unless and until we can verify that the salt definitely is consumed during the burn of the method we are using. Rosco may be able to do some tests with his pressurized bell to determine the outcome of the salt factor, and that would be good to know at differing compression rates.

Hope that clears up the salt idea for you.

Best regards from an old salt,

Rickoff

[rickoff]

Re: water introduction to engine

Perhaps an idea which I posted in my June 7, #13 post in the Firestorm Plug thread, about introducing water, may be worth some exploration. No one showed much interest in the idea at the time, but that may well have changed now that everyone is interested in using water with a plasma arc. The person who came up with this idea created a pdf file clearly showing his method for creating a water injection spark plug.
See the pdf file here: http://www.energeticforum.com/attach...l-injector.pdf or view it on my SkyDrive at: DUAL ANODE COAXIAL INJECTOR.pdf - Windows Live SkyDrive

While his dual anode/dual voltage idea is not necessary for the adaptation, the direct injection effect may be a good idea. A modified spark plug was used to build and show the prototype, but it would be easier to start with a antifouler when building one. If anyone tries this out, I would recommend using a ceramic adhesive such as Resbond 919, instead of other epoxies, because it will withstand temperatures to 2800F degrees while maintaining exceptionally high electrical resistance.

Just some extra food for thought, but it would seem most beneficial to be introducing the water, or preheated water mist, directly at the point of the plasma burst, as in this method, rather than elsewhere in the combustion chamber.

Rickoff

[Aaron]

eec concept for spark gap

Luc,

I agree with you totally.

I'm entertaining the idea of a chemical way to steal electrons from the gap of the spark. Something beneficial to the engine would be some oil and it wouldn't hurt it nor would it be an electrolyte. Oxidized oil could be a chemical eec.

If we can get an electric way to do it, let me know.

Also, I'm just speculating on this even being necessary. If the spark is big enough, the explosive force might be enough that immediate vacuum might not be a problem.

If it is, then EEC concept applied to the gap needs to be figured out.

[Peter Lindemann]

Hi everyone,

I'm away from home this weekend so my internet access is limited.

I must say that I feel that the use of electrolyte in the water is rubbing me the wrong way and it always has. I know it's going to make a better show but how long will a combustion engine work with salt in it. I don't think for long.

Just so you know I posted this reply to Ossie at the Overunity Forum:

Hi Ossie,

I am having a hard time wording this but I'll give it a try, so please don't be upset if something I write makes you feel bad since that is not my intention here. As you know, I have praised and valued all the work you have done and you have added so much great research to this topic.

Using electrolyte in the water was a direction I was purposely avoiding (not wanting to do). Maybe you did not see the first page post where someone posted this Cold Fusion Plasma 9 Youtube video: YouTube - Cold Fusion Plasma 9 which I deleted since I found it to be off topic. Now once again someone has posted it on this page. I am not impressed by this video demonstration because of the use of electrolyte in the water. I seem to find this to be a form of brute force electrolysis.

I can be wrong and you maybe on the right track and this is what would be needed to make a combustion engine work on water but I am hoping not. How can we expect a normal ICE to last with salt going though it? isn't it going to rust like 30 times faster than just water? It may work in the Lexan engine that I'm presently building but I think I would be testing this last.

Maybe there is something I'm missing or not understanding

Luc

If someone here @Energetic Forum knows what I can be missing or not understanding please let me know about it.

Thank you all for your time and great work in replication.

Luc

Luc,

I tend to agree with your goal of achieving the most from a water/fuel system without electrolyte. However, you put these ideas into the public domain, and have started an Open Source project with worldwide participation. Different people, following their inspiration, discover and report on different possible directions the research can go. Ossie is a long-time and respected researcher in this field. I believe his tests with the low voltage igniting of salt water is an another important contribution to our over-all understanding of the interaction of the water and the spark. It tells us one more thing about this process of being able to burn water directly. In spite of this, I am not going to put salt in my engine. It just seems like the wrong thing to do. A lot of others are not comfortable with this either. So igniting salt water with a spark plug may be difficult to adapt to an engine.

Personally, I am going to continue my research along the lines you seem to prefer, that is, water without electrolyte. However, I do not think that "scolding Ossie" for reporting another original, experimental discovery is useful or respectful. Open Source Projects are like children. Once out in the world, they tend to do things that their parents wished they wouldn't. A good parent lets the children "do what they do" and learn their own lessons.

I encourage you to "let go" and let your idea grow and develop in the minds of all of the participants of the project. I expect other unexpected discoveries will come from this, as well.

We are all learning at a fantastic rate. Thank you, so much, for lighting this fire in our minds. None of us will ever be the same.

Peter

[rickoff]

To Aaron: About your Calcium ions question

I sprayed unrefined sea salt solution on this amplified spark and it is more orangish...I couldn't get a temp reading before and after because the relay on front side is used and abused pretty hard and kept sticking. So anyway, for sure, the spark is more orangish.

Rick, isn't there a good amount of + calcium ions in the sea water too?

I wonder if in application with this plug spark effect that any + charged ions will steal the electrons from the h/o separation allowing more of a real explosion.

Hi Aaron, I guess I missed your Calcium question before, but here's the answer:
It takes a lot to ignite Calcium, but when ignited it burns with a reddish-yellow flame, which may help to explain the orange glow you saw. As far as Calcium ions go, Calcium definitely is positively charged, and only has 2 electrons in its outer orbit. Because of that, though, it is more likely to give up those electrons to reactive forces than to "steal" electrons.

Also, I should point out that the greatest problem in burning sea water is the very high temperature encountered. In the Kanzius tests, the best burn was recorded at 3,000F degrees! That's great if you want to use the principle to heat air or liquid quickly (say for home heating, or to run a Stirling engine) but definitely not a good thing for an ICE. So it looks like one way or another we need to deal with the water reformation. An idea popped into my head that could utilize the water reformation process beneficially, but it would take too long to write about it. I'll see if I can make up a diagram of the idea, so it is clearer as to what I have in mind.

One more thing - can you, or someone else, do a quick experiment with their plasma spark setup to show what happens when the arc is focused through a 3 inch long pipe attached to the base of the spark plug, instead of allowing it to spread out as in the videos I have seen? It seems to me that a focused arc would be longer, and more intense. Perhaps you could actually "shoot" a plasma ball out the pipe. Anyways, the effect is key to part of my idea.

Best, Rick

[gotoluc]

Luc,

I tend to agree with your goal of achieving the most from a water/fuel system without electrolyte. However, you put these ideas into the public domain, and have started an Open Source project with worldwide participation. Different people, following their inspiration, discover and report on different possible directions the research can go. Ossie is a long-time and respected researcher in this field. I believe his tests with the low voltage igniting of salt water is an another important contribution to our over-all understanding of the interaction of the water and the spark. It tells us one more thing about this process of being able to burn water directly. In spite of this, I am not going to put salt in my engine. It just seems like the wrong thing to do. A lot of others are not comfortable with this either. So igniting salt water with a spark plug may be difficult to adapt to an engine.

Personally, I am going to continue my research along the lines you seem to prefer, that is, water without electrolyte. However, I do not think that "scolding Ossie" for reporting another original, experimental discovery is useful or respectful. Open Source Projects are like children. Once out in the world, they tend to do things that their parents wished they wouldn't. A good parent lets the children "do what they do" and learn their own lessons.

I encourage you to "let go" and let your idea grow and develop in the minds of all of the participants of the project. I expect other unexpected discoveries will come from this, as well.

We are all learning at a fantastic rate. Thank you, so much, for lighting this fire in our minds. None of us will ever be the same.

Peter

Thank you Peter for the reply. You have made very good points and since posted the below message to Ossie.

Ossie, I have asked others opinion of what they think of this direction. I received some replies. Among one was from Peter Lindeman. He has pointed out that I offered this circuit to public domain and therefore I should not have any set ideas or expectation as to what or how researchers will chose to use or develop the circuit.

That is a true and an undisputable point.

So please accept my apology for reacting to the direction you are going with your research. Please do feel free to continue posting your findings as all your research and experiment have great value to this tread.

Sincerely

Luc

@everyone, thank you for all your support.

Luc

[Aaron]

ideas

An idea popped into my head that could utilize the water reformation process beneficially, but it would take too long to write about it. I'll see if I can make up a diagram of the idea, so it is clearer as to what I have in mind.

One more thing - can you, or someone else, do a quick experiment with their plasma spark setup to show what happens when the arc is focused through a 3 inch long pipe attached to the base of the spark plug, instead of allowing it to spread out as in the videos I have seen? It seems to me that a focused arc would be longer, and more intense. Perhaps you could actually "shoot" a plasma ball out the pipe. Anyways, the effect is key to part of my idea. Best, Rick

Hi Rick,

The tube thing I tried before with a copper tube and it was about 3-4 inches. It muffled it a bit...roman candle style sort of. Anyway, whenever I can get some more diodes I'll see if I can try to video it because there are a few other things I want to try with a tube on the plug.

When you mention take advantage of the reformation of water, what popped into my head was that the timing is so advanced that is sparks when the piston is almost at the dead bottom so that at that very moment it goes back up on the vacuum. lol

The Bourke Engine really seems to be made exactly for this spark effect with water and/or hho.

[Jules Tresor]

plasma spark power

hi, about testing the spark power, i found this video, but may be you saw it already ...

The Jumping Marble (Water & Plasma)
showing a normal spark then a plasma enhanced spark. The enhanced spark has water added and then has enough force to lift
YouTube - The Jumping Marble (Water & Plasma)

best regards
MDG

[elias]

Jumping marble was nice, thanks for sharing. A good proof of concept

[rickoff]

Aaron: tube & reformation

Hi Rick,

The tube thing I tried before with a copper tube and it was about 3-4 inches. It muffled it a bit...roman candle style sort of. Anyway, whenever I can get some more diodes I'll see if I can try to video it because there are a few other things I want to try with a tube on the plug.

When you mention take advantage of the reformation of water, what popped into my head was that the timing is so advanced that is sparks when the piston is almost at the dead bottom so that at that very moment it goes back up on the vacuum. lol

The Bourke Engine really seems to be made exactly for this spark effect with water and/or hho.

Yes, the Bourke would be a good design for it.

Hmm, Roman candle effect. I see. Kind of chokes it out, huh? How about a short tube, maybe 1/2 inch or less, to concentrate but not choke the arc? Actually, while I would want to use a tube of probably 3 or more inches in length, the length used for the arc can be as short as desired.

Well, I wasn't going to do this. I was just going to go to bed early for a change tonight, but I guess I might as well throw my idea at you while it is still fresh in my mind so that I won't be thinking about it for the next 8 hours while I'm trying to sleep. In a nutshell, my reformation advantage idea is to opeate the ICE as a closed system, in that the intake and exhaust valves would remain closed at all times, so that you don't have to deal with water out the exhaust, figuring air/fuel mixes, or worrying about corrosion of the valve faces and seats. If the water is constantly going through exploding and reforming phases, then you don't need an intake valve to bring anything into the cylinder. What you need is already there - H20 in the perfect ratio for what you want to do, without any need of atmospheric air. If, for some reason (such as small losses of water vapor past the piston rings), you need to add back a slight amount of water vapor, that can easily be accomplished. I know what you're thinking at this point - (hmm, sounds logical, but with no exhaust valve opening up won't the piston be slowed or stopped by compression when returning from the bottom of the power stroke?). The answer is no, because of my idea. Basically, a tube would be fitted to the spark plug hole in the cylinder head, and it would have a set of contacts close to the head, (wherever the best effect is) rather than a spark plug. The contacts could be arranged so as to be changed out easily when wanted. They would be insulated from the tube, of course, at their point of entry to the tube. Inside the tube would be a plunger, which is drawn back by mechanical, magnetic, or solenoid action (and assisted in that motion by the piston compression effect) as the piston returns from BDC after the power stroke. This relieves the compression effect so as to not have much impact on the rising piston. As soon as the piston reaches TDC, the plunger is activated to quickly push the water vapor back into the cylinder, and you then trigger the arc, at the desired timing point, when the plunger is all the way in (up close to the contacts). If the explosion/reformation cycle happens as quickly as I suspect, then you can have a power stroke each time the piston comes back to TDC, and not have any wasted motion. The plunger takes place of both the intake and exhaust cycles during one down/up motion of the piston. If your engine utilizes "waste spark" ignition, which is so named because one ignition spark is normally wasted at the top of the usual exhaust stroke, then that works out perfectly. Most single-cylinder 4 cycle engines use waste spark, and so do many motorcycles and some automobiles. If it doesn't, then it still won't be difficult to develop an arc when you want it, as you always want it when the plunger is all the way in. You can vary the timing of the spark by varying the time that the plunger reaches the all-the-way-in position.

Okay, that's about it - "in a nutshell," so to speak. Make sense to you, Aaron? Anybody?

Off to bed now. Good night, er, uh, good morning actually!

Rick

[gotoluc]

Yes, the Bourke would be a good design for it.

Hmm, Roman candle effect. I see. Kind of chokes it out, huh? How about a short tube, maybe 1/2 inch or less, to concentrate but not choke the arc? Actually, while I would want to use a tube of probably 3 or more inches in length, the length used for the arc can be as short as desired.

Well, I wasn't going to do this. I was just going to go to bed early for a change tonight, but I guess I might as well throw my idea at you while it is still fresh in my mind so that I won't be thinking about it for the next 8 hours while I'm trying to sleep. In a nutshell, my reformation advantage idea is to opeate the ICE as a closed system, in that the intake and exhaust valves would remain closed at all times, so that you don't have to deal with water out the exhaust, figuring air/fuel mixes, or worrying about corrosion of the valve faces and seats. If the water is constantly going through exploding and reforming phases, then you don't need an intake valve to bring anything into the cylinder. What you need is already there - H20 in the perfect ratio for what you want to do, without any need of atmospheric air. If, for some reason (such as small losses of water vapor past the piston rings), you need to add back a slight amount of water vapor, that can easily be accomplished. I know what you're thinking at this point - (hmm, sounds logical, but with no exhaust valve opening up won't the piston be slowed or stopped by compression when returning from the bottom of the power stroke?). The answer is no, because of my idea. Basically, a tube would be fitted to the spark plug hole in the cylinder head, and it would have a set of contacts close to the head, (wherever the best effect is) rather than a spark plug. The contacts could be arranged so as to be changed out easily when wanted. They would be insulated from the tube, of course, at their point of entry to the tube. Inside the tube would be a plunger, which is drawn back by mechanical, magnetic, or solenoid action (and assisted in that motion by the piston compression effect) as the piston returns from BDC after the power stroke. This relieves the compression effect so as to not have much impact on the rising piston. As soon as the piston reaches TDC, the plunger is activated to quickly push the water vapor back into the cylinder, and you then trigger the arc, at the desired timing point, when the plunger is all the way in (up close to the contacts). If the explosion/reformation cycle happens as quickly as I suspect, then you can have a power stroke each time the piston comes back to TDC, and not have any wasted motion. The plunger takes place of both the intake and exhaust cycles during one down/up motion of the piston. If your engine utilizes "waste spark" ignition, which is so named because one ignition spark is normally wasted at the top of the usual exhaust stroke, then that works out perfectly. Most single-cylinder 4 cycle engines use waste spark, and so do many motorcycles and some automobiles. If it doesn't, then it still won't be difficult to develop an arc when you want it, as you always want it when the plunger is all the way in. You can vary the timing of the spark by varying the time that the plunger reaches the all-the-way-in position.

Okay, that's about it - "in a nutshell," so to speak. Make sense to you, Aaron? Anybody?

Off to bed now. Good night, er, uh, good morning actually!

Rick

Excellent ideas you have there Rick, much similar to my thinking also. I am building a clear Lexan engine to be able to get a visual of what is going on inside. Many of the ideas you mention will be tested in this new engine.

Keep up the good work.

Luc

[elias]

Awesome ...

Hello Dear Friends,

I managed to replicate this effect and it was astonishing indeed!
For the capacitor I used a 4.7 uF 450v and charged it upto 500 volts. The result was impressive when putting the diodes in between. The only problem I had is the fact that water seemed to get between my sparkgap electrodes and short it out. I may need to experiment with steam to see the effect.

I'll post a video, but now it is late and I don't want to wake anybody with the bangs!

Elias

[Aaron]

overcharging caps

Be careful overcharging the caps, they can explode like dynamite.

[rickoff]

Thanks, Luc

Excellent ideas you have there Rick, much similar to my thinking also. I am building a clear Lexan engine to be able to get a visual of what is going on inside. Many of the ideas you mention will be tested in this new engine.

Keep up the good work.

Luc

Thank you for your expression of support for my ideas. Of course what I posted was just the "in a nutshell" version, and several things would need deeper explanation, such as the actual construction of the tube with plunger and contacts, what to do about the water vapor left over in the cylinder after running the engine, what is needed when priming and starting the engine, etc., etc. The answers really aren't that difficult, though. If I had full access to a good machine shop I could probably assemble a working model of the tube and its internal and external components within a couple of weeks, but sad to say I don't have such access any more, being retired. Still, I can at least work on the concept drawings when time allows, and I'll make those available as I finish each one. I'm very interested in your Lexan engine build (I assume a 1 cylinder design, right?) and would love to see your concept plan for that. It will be so greatly simplified if built to utilize my ideas, as no valvetrain components will be needed - just a cylinder with a flat Lexan head. How simple and functional. It's interesting that you say you have been thinking along similar lines as to some of the things I mentioned. It's nice to collaborate with you. If there is enough support for these ideas, then perhaps some people can work together in small groups to perfect the different aspects that will all fit together as a whole when completed, thus saving time and needless excessive duplications. I'll be interested, though, to first see how much merit and support there actually is for these ideas.

I went this weekend to look at a couple of used 4 cycle engines in the 7 to 15 hp range for my own testing, but neither panned out. One was in really rough shape, and the other did not have electric start. Now I will probably go ahead and experiment using my snowblower's 5 hp Tecumseh engine after all.

Best regards to you Luc, and keep the good stuff coming.

Rick

[elias]

Be careful overcharging the caps, they can explode like dynamite.

Yes, at first I thought my supply is around 400v, and I used it as so, but when I exploded one capacitor, I found out that the voltage was a bit higher than 500v. Anyway I used two series, to get high voltage, and I don't understand what the diodes actually do, which make it burst like that, and I can conform that it is noway like a normal spark, it glows differently and it seems more "Radiant" than any other spark I have seen, it does not heat, and also it seems that it is more SOFT than a normal spark.

I think that the diode may be making the flow in the spark uni-directional as Peter stated in his book, about Grays tube, this circuit maybe a secret to the secret of the Gray tube, I recall Jetijs had built a Gray tube without success, maybe he'd better try using the gray tube by this circuit?

Anyway Thanks gotoluc, more experiments to do.