Water Sparkplug

[blahblah]

I'm very much interested in this paper:
What Limits Lean Operation in Spark Ignition Engines--Flame Initiation Or Propagation?

Does anyone happen to have a copy?

Hi Aaron
Ive searched long and hard..yet instead of finding this document I hav einstead found that it is cited in many patents..you probably found this out already... two of these patents that caught my eye..

US Patent 5704321 - Traveling spark ignition system].

(WO/2007/011361) LASER SPARK DELIVERY SYSTEM WITH OPTIONAL INTEGRATED OPTICAL DIAGNOSTICS

Hope someone else can get that paper for you !

For Completeness/...later Patent for Travelling Spark
Dual-mode ignition system utilizing traveling spark ignitor]

[goldenequity]

sae doc

Hope someone else can get that paper for you !

Nope... I tried pretty hard as well... sorry.

[blahblah]

Couldn't seem to edit my last post..so just wanted to add the last thing I found..

..laser plasma ignited ICE presentation

http://www.iitk.ac.in/reach/2008/Ene..._Dhananjay.ppt

And
Flame initiation by nanosecond plasma discharges
http://ronney.usc.edu/BernardLewis/C...aiwan.2005.ppt

[gotoluc]

@anyone interested, below is a simple test circuit that was posted at OU by IndianaBoys and maybe of interest to some here.

Luc


IndianaBoys Post:
Maybe this will be of assistance?
RIDICULOUSLY SENSITIVE
ELECTRIC CHARGE DETECTOR
Build this simple "electronic electroscope," a FET electrometer
This simple circuit can detect the invisible fields of voltage which surround all electrified objects. It acts as an electronic "electroscope."

Keep up the good work!

IndianaBoys

[Jetijs]

Hi Luc,
I have built several of these simple detectors. They work really well. I could turn one of these lights off from a distance of one meter using a plastic tube that I rubbed on a shirt for a while charging it with static charge this way. When I used my small power Tesla coil, I could turn it off from about 3m
Funny little thing

[gotoluc]

As far as the waste spark.... I'm not concerned about "wasting" the power.... I'm more concerned about pushing the waste spark into the Intake Stroke as we desire to retard the timing past TDC (to take advantage of the incredibly fast burn rate when we include hydrogen into the mix).

It's pretty simple, If we don't eliminate the waste spark.... we can't go past TDC without igniting the intake with an open valve causing a backfire up through the carburetor (an perhaps into an HHO bubbler? )

Thank you goldenequity for bringing this important matter to our attention. I do agree with you, as we will want to test the engine ATDC to see if the circuit is in fact going to burn the Fuel at a faster rate than a standard spark. If it does work, it will be a major breakthrough for Gas ICE as the efficiency will improved. So for those who maybe at this point!... you will have to deal with this problem, or as goldenequity is pointing out the fuel may burn during the intake stroke.

I'm thinking and hoping that with this simple circuit we may have a Geet system happening right in the combustion chamber. Let us hope! as it would help many.

A wish to all to succeed in our experiments.

@Jetijs, thanks for sharing your experience with the above circuit.

Luc

[Peter Lindemann]

Pin 5

Peter,

Solved the timer problem, it was simply a bad connection with the relay diode.
I have been looking again at your relay picture. On the mini circuit, is Terminal 5 bridged to T6 and connected to the + ve of the cap. Then the - ve of the cap, connected to T4? If so, the schematic that I asked to be reviewed, was wrong and the problem is solved. I have exactly the same relay as you.

Re. The specs of the Microwave diode. It definitely has 14.4 KV and .5 MA hand written on it, it was given to me (I have another on order) by an electronics engineer, who told me it was within spec. of your diagram. I have it hooked up with the "arrow" which he informed me, always points towards the cathode end, attached to the high voltage +ve. terminal of the coil and the cathode end attached to the low voltage +ve. of the coil.

I found the engineer's patronisation to be counter productive, he is no longer involved in the project and I have been preoccupied with building the engine, hence my delay in response. Thanks again for the input.

Rgds
D.

Dread,

I'm glad you found the problem. I thought it would be minor. As for Pin 5 on the 555 timer, it is usually left unconnected, or tied down to GROUND through a small capacitor with a value between .01uf and .1uf. I usually leave it unconnected for simplicity, but if you need extreme stability, which you don't in this case, the little capacitor helps.

In standard 555 circuits, pin 1 is connected to GROUND and pins 4 and 8 are connected to V+. I don't understand all of the confusion here. I just reviewed the schematic we posted and the drawing is very clear. Pin 1 is connected to ground. Pins 4 and 8 are connected to V+. Pin 5 is unconnected.

I hope this helps.

Peter

[Aaron]

plasma timing

It is already known that with enough plasma volume that any advance in timing becomes totally unnecessary.

I might just buy that article. Free is better than $14 or however much

BlahBlah, yes, I'm aware of those patents. The TSI ones are very revealing.

[Dread]

Relay

Peter,

Sorry if I was unclear. My questions were related to the relay and how you have it connected to the circuit.

D.

[revizal]

Hi Peter..
Sorry for not answering your question.
That is not my video..... the experimenter (Indonesia) replicated gotoluc's circuit and posted his efforts with the gas engine using diesel fuel.... I just ran across it and thought it might generate some discussion and have application to the direction of this thread.... Luc reposted to Overunity as well.

I just found it fascinating that he could get the engine to turn over AT ALL using diesel fuel in a carburetor.... as diesel does not like to vaporize... imo it proves that the "effect" is able to combust almost anything and I'm very excited at the intentions to try very lean A/F ratios with water mist.... I believe it can handle it easily.

.

Hi everyone..
I've tried to reply the posting, but my user id still not have previllage to reply any comment. Thanks for admin, now I'm able to post any comment here.

Above is my video. If you check my video sharing, I'm very interesting in anergy alternative such plasma ignition what S1R used to run his car and genset. What I'm doing, as you know diesel doesnot like to vaporize in normal home temp. Actually diesel fuel has larger energy content if compare to gasoline. So need some treatment to vaporize diesel before introducing it to the cylinder or just introduce it into plasma ignition which I proved could vaporize or explode or ignite it immedietly.
I still have a problem with my contact timing to get real engine timing. I'm using reed switch but the fire ignition are not consistent even in using gasoline as fuel. It ignited in every two rotation with misfire on one rotation. I'll check it.
And I still have a problem in using water as the fuel. My plasma ignition has not able to run piston with expoded water.

Thank you for Peter circuit, gotoluc for the videos, Aaron pics and explaination, Rick, and all member of this forum in contributing for knowledge and make better understanding about plasma spark.

[revizal]

Peter,

Solved the timer problem, it was simply a bad connection with the relay diode.
I have been looking again at your relay picture. On the mini circuit, is Terminal 5 bridged to T6 and connected to the + ve of the cap. Then the - ve of the cap, connected to T4? If so, the schematic that I asked to be reviewed, was wrong and the problem is solved. I have exactly the same relay as you.

Re. The specs of the Microwave diode. It definitely has 14.4 KV and .5 MA hand written on it, it was given to me (I have another on order) by an electronics engineer, who told me it was within spec. of your diagram. I have it hooked up with the "arrow" which he informed me, always points towards the cathode end, attached to the high voltage +ve. terminal of the coil and the cathode end attached to the low voltage +ve. of the coil.

I found the engineer's patronisation to be counter productive, he is no longer involved in the project and I have been preoccupied with building the engine, hence my delay in response. Thanks again for the input.

Rgds
D.

Dread,
I was built this 555 timer from Peter video too. It worked with add 100 KOhm infront of POT. Just what Peter said we can let pin 5 free or ground it with smal capacitor if necessary. But it worked in free mode.
Just find my video,

YouTube - Plasma Water Ignition-4 (controlled relay)

Thank U and regard,

[Aaron]

atomizing diesel

Revizal,

With diesel, you might find great info here...I did for home oil heating furnace.
altfuelfurnace : Alternative fuels furnace

The reason I mention this is they also have a builders group for burning veggi oil in home oil furnace.

With vaporizing veggi fuel or biodiesel, there are two main types of nozzles in an oil furnace:

SIPHON nozzle and PRESSURIZED nozzle. Most people are familiar with pressure type system where oil pump pumps oil with pressure to nozzle and it mists out.

With the SIPHON nozzle, air I believe is pumped through the nozzle and towards the end, a venturi type effect sucks on the oil in the valve and pulls it out with suction. This might be something anyone interested in getting better "atomization" with diesel might want to look into.

Perhaps it will give someone ideas on making some injector nozzle for water/hho.



Anyway, I'm just mentioning this because I also thought that this plasma ignition would work in diesels and it appears you have proven it.

If you want to explore this specific application on diesel and plasma, please start a new thread because I think there could be a lot here.

Diesel is more expensive than gasoline so it may not be cost effective...however if straight veggi oil can be burned in an engine using this plasma ignition...then this could be big stuff.
Here is a builders group on using veggi oil for home furnace that might have a lot of pieces of info that could be useful to us.

vegoilburners : vegoilburners

[revizal]

Why water ?

Thanks Aaron,

If you invite my country (Indonesia), you will find we are in energy crisis. We're hard to find gasoline on filling station. In my town (Pekanbaru and Duri), there are 3 times a day (3 hours in every duration) the electricity provided by goverment off. I don't want to talk about the causal factor. But these are the fact. That's why I try my self to find any kind alternative to alter gasoline as the fuel.

Btw, the main purpose is water. Water is the most available on earth. What I'm saying is the step to reach it trying to fire the fuel from the easiest to ignite. I think diesel, biodiesel, and veggi oil are the next after gasoline (easier find in my town than gasoline). I hope thru this forum we can find the solution.
Thank you for references.

[gotoluc]

What I'm doing, as you know diesel doesnot like to vaporize in normal home temp. Actually diesel fuel has larger energy content if compare to gasoline. So need some treatment to vaporize diesel before introducing it to the cylinder or just introduce it into plasma ignition which I proved could vaporize or explode or ignite it immedietly.

And I still have a problem in using water as the fuel. My plasma ignition has not able to run piston with expoded water.

A warm to you revizal. I am very happy you are now with us.

I was also happy to see that you are the first to do the Diesel test on a gasoline engine. This shows so much of the potential of the circuit and the use of a plasma spark in a ICE.

I used a VW Golf Diesel for over 10 years. I also did a strait veggi oil conversion 2 years ago and it worked well.

The circuit is not yet capable of running a ICE on water alone! as you found out. So we are now looking at Gasoline and other fuels. Myself I will be testing on my 3HP lawn mower engine with gasoline vapors and water fog combination and reporting my findings.

All the best to you and your experiments.

@Aaron, please note that Diesel maybe more expensive in the USA but it may not be the case in other Counties. Also to note, my Diesel VW Golf would give me 600 miles or more to a tank of Diesel compare to a Gasoline Golf would give 350 miles to the same tank size. Many people are not aware of the savings even if the price is higher at this time. The price hike was done to discourage American's to look at Diesel as an alternative, in most other countries Diesel is the fuel of choice for best value. Jet fuel is not much different than Diesel. They are both high in energy content. I know that Kerosene is much available in India and I'm quite sure it could also work as well as Diesel.

Luc

[tstorey]

ICE and water

Thoughts that have come relative to getting the arc to push a piston.

As usual allow a couple of dumb points...hoping they may stimulate a good point.

Timing needs to be advanced to the limit. I am no mechanic and do not even know if timing adjustment is possible on these small engines. I do know that timing retardation is an ICE manufacturer's standard approach....I assume their standard approach has nothing to do with our well being. Maybe an old one with points etc would be a shot.

Abstracts

The engine is all about heat: (below quote from link/ I realize they are not talking about the same thing...but)

"Hydrogen is an attractive, environmentally-friendly fuel for many applications such as transportation vehicles. However, use of lean H2-air combustion IC engines is hindered by the lack of knowledge of the complex interactions among flame instabilities, heat losses, hydrodynamic strain and flame front curvature. Lean hydrogen-air combustion is different from hydrocarbon-air combustion because of its lower minimum flame temperatures supporting combustion (thus lower thermal expansion ratios), lower Lewis number (Le) and lower radiative emission. The implications of these differences for IC engine combustion efficiency and emissions will be discussed and research needs suggested."

End quote.

There is a possibility that there is not enough heat as the effect is now constructed. The next two points might assist, they might not. You guys are doing all the work, merely accept as a suggestion.

A possible issue with this plug is heat in the combustion chamber. It wants to be hot. It needs to be hot. This allows for the thermal expansion the engine is designed for?

Answer to heat issue?

More fuel. I suggest considering a richer mixture (how you get city water to be "rich" is another matter).....if you haven't already done that. This may help with the size and thermal qualities of the effect.

More water just might get more heat and 'Christmas knows' probably more water as an after effect...steam?

Any observations from testing are appreciated!

Thanks for everything guys. I am rooting for you!

T