Water Sparkplug

[Gibs]

Spark duration

Gibs, somebody on this forum has allready shown that a capacitor of 4uF discharges through a plasma spark in about 100us. That's less than a half from an classic inductive spark. If you want to shorten this spark time, it would probably become too short...
Anyway, with a good home made DC-DC converter you will charge that capacitor in allmost no time. Mine is made with a NE555, works at 33KHz, and charges 9.4uF in about 2.3ms, at 320V. It needs less than 1ms to charge a 4.7uF at the same voltage.

All the best for all.

Hi Kinetix,
Thanks for bringing these numbers.

If I understand well, it means that my 2 uF cap (approximately) would fully discharge in about 50 us. So if my calculations are right, at 3600 rpm there's 60 firing per second on a two stroke engine, so 50 us multiplied by 60 would give 3000 us firing time per second or .003 second.
So one second minus .003 = .997 second per second left to recharge the cap.
Divided by 60 events per second = 0.0166 second maximum per recharge...

Before going further, does it seem right for you?

P.S: Does anyone knows the theoretical time duration of lightning?

Peace to everyone who's working for peace

[gotoluc]

@everyone,

I cannot edit post #705. Once I click save it just hangs and does nothing. I tried different browsers I even did a ghost system reinstall and it's still not working.

So I'm testing to see if I can post.

Luc

Edit 1 okay I see I can post! now lets see if I can edit.

Luc

Edit 2 Okay I see I can edit so I don't know why I can't edit my post #705? What could be causing this?

Luc

[Jetijs]

Luc, I noticed this too. It is not your browser problem, I think that this is rather the forum engine problem. If I push the "edit" button and do only a minor changes, add a word or two for example, then everything works fine, but if I do some bigger editing, then nothing happens when I push "save". But in such cases I usually push "go to advanced" button and edit everything I need there, this way I never had any problems

[gotoluc]

Luc, I noticed this too. It is not your browser problem, I think that this is rather the forum engine problem. If I push the "edit" button and do only a minor changes, add a word or two for example, then everything works fine, but if I do some bigger editing, then nothing happens when I push "save". But in such cases I usually push "go to advanced" button and edit everything I need there, this way I never had any problems

Thanks Jetijs, that worked

What would we do without you

Luc

[gotoluc]

@everyone,

many have been sending me PM's asking if I have a simple solid state switching circuit as a replacement to the relay. Unfortunately I did not have one that I would consider simple. I decided to started a topic at OU Forum asking for help for someone to design a simple circuit that would work with the simple Water Power circuit.

I am pleased to share 2 circuits which both have been done by User Name: Groundloop

Thank you Groundloop for your time and contribution

Luc

Here is what Groundloop says:

Here is a proposed very simple circuit for testing on your system.

The no.1 circuit works like this:
The 120 VAC is rectified through a diode bridge resulting in only positive pulses after the
bridge. The capacitor will charge up and when the capacitor voltage reach approx. 120 VDC
the Neon bulb will light sending a small current to the SCR trigger. The SCR will then dump
the capacitor charge into the ignition coil. The BY diode is there for back emf protection. The
5 watt resistor is a current limiter so that the SCR will survive.

The no.2 circuit works like this:
Attached is the same simple circuit with external trigger input.
Note: Adjust the SCR trigger voltage BEFORE switching on circuit.
This circuit can be used with external trigger in an engine enviroment.

Groundloop.

[gmeast]

@everyone,

many have been sending me PM's asking if I have a simple solid state switching circuit as a replacement to the relay. Unfortunately I did not have one that I would consider simple. I decided to started a topic at OU Forum asking for help for someone to design a simple circuit that would work with the simple Water Power circuit.

I am pleased to share 2 circuits which both have been done by User Name: Groundloop

Thank you Groundloop for your time and contribution

Luc

Hi Luc,

I noticed in the two schematics that the cap is only 2.2uf. In Peter Lindemann's relay/isolation version, (the one I built), he used 47uf. I had a 100uf cap and started with that. Then I procured a 47uf cap and then went to a 22uf cap. At 22uf it works but it is not spectacular. I doubt I'd get anything from a 2.2uf. My current limiter is 100ohm 25 watt, a single HV diode and 120 VAC line with a fast-pack full bridge. Is 2.2uf the correct value in the schematics?

Thanks in advance,

Greg

[Gibs]

Circuit experiment

Hi Luc,
First, I've experimented with some parts of the circuit that Groundloop proposed - thanks to Groundloop by the way - and I used a #P600K 1000 V 6 A/22 A peak diode in parallel with the coil, and by switching 12 Volts manually into the coil, I observed a fast rising in diode temperature.

Maybe the energy of the back EMF is to high to be absorbed by the diode, or maybe the diode is not fast enough but in a normal coil circuit config, there is no diode in parallel with the coil.
It does'nt seem to affect the spark appearence dough.

Second, it seems to me that there is a capacitor missing. I would add one at the output of the bridge to get the cap dumping effect.

Thanks for sharing.

[Kinetix]

Hi everyone.
Gibs, let's suppose your engine is a 1cylinder 2 stroke.
That means it will have a spark each turn.
3600rpm means 3600 sparks per minute, and that means 60 sparks per second.
1 second divided by 60 equals 0.0166s per cycle (charge-discharge of the capacitor). That is about 17ms per cycle. If discharge time is 50us, that means the 2uF capacitor will have plenty of time to charge: let's say 16ms.
Now, the capacitor will fully charge in this time or not... That depends on the performance of your DC-DC converter (or inverter)... In that youtube video, 4uF was charged in 48ms, but at a low frequency (a few hundred Hz). As I allready said, mine (4.7uF) is charged in less than 1ms, but the frequency is much higher (33KHz).

gotoluc, you have exposed a very nice and interresting explanation.
You are right. As much we appreciate the original design made by God (The Great Designer of the Nature) and try to copy it, the more we will succeed.

Anyway, my knowledge about carburetors is that they do vaporize fuel, but at differrent levels, depending on the quality of the producer. The greater the quality of the carburetor, the better the vaporisation of the fuel. Also, the smaller the throttle plate, the better the vaporisation at low rpm.
I also looked in the carburetor as I manually accelerated the engine. The high speed of the air along with it's turbulence transforms the emulsion fuel into a mist like vapour. The emulsion is made by the jets. The liquid fuel passed through fuel jet mixes with the air passed through the air jet, resulting emulsion. That emulsion is vaporised. So there is a 2 steps vaporisation process. The increased temperature of the carburetor and manifold (due to the engine warming) helps the process.
Now, I know that this vaporisation could be made much better, cause the carburetors have their limits... That is the reason that various type of "fuel savers" developped.
It is also a good idea to experiment other type of vaporisation system, as you described.

Cheers.

[Radiant-1]

I skimmed through it...lol

@Peter

Radiant-1,

I hate to say this, because you are a really enthusiastic guy, but you really should read this entire thread before proceeding. There are many YouTube videos linked in as we all learned from each other to build this thread. Take a day, and learn everything up to this point. Then replicate some of the early circuits and see what this is. Then come back in and add to the thread.

In other forums you may be able to just jump in, because nobody ever gets anything done in those other forums. Over here, we are all building things and learning from each other as we go. These threads are an archive of the project and the progress that has happened from the beginning!

If you read the whole thread and view the YouTube videos link from here, you can answer all of your own questions and come up to speed very quickly.

Thanks, and welcome aboard!

Peter

I will do that from now on...sorry for being a newb...but, you were right about other forums...I guess I will have to change my habits.
So, sorry for any inconvenience. Will read a thread %100 before I post from now on.

[gotoluc]

Hi Luc,

I noticed in the two schematics that the cap is only 2.2uf. In Peter Lindemann's relay/isolation version, (the one I built), he used 47uf. I had a 100uf cap and started with that. Then I procured a 47uf cap and then went to a 22uf cap. At 22uf it works but it is not spectacular. I doubt I'd get anything from a 2.2uf. My current limiter is 100ohm 25 watt, a single HV diode and 120 VAC line with a fast-pack full bridge. Is 2.2uf the correct value in the schematics?

Thanks in advance,

Greg

Hi Greg,

try your 22uf in Groundloop's switching circuit first and if that does not work to your satisfaction try your 47uf. Also take note that the diode in parallel with the coil may cause a problem or is not needed. I have not built the circuit wet since it is hot off the press and for the next 3 days I will be focused on building the half GEET plasma engine. So testing and trouble shooting will be up to all who build. Please share your findings and make your recommendations as long as the circuit stays the most simple as possible for most anyone to build.

Luc

[gotoluc]

Hi Luc,
First, I've experimented with some parts of the circuit that Groundloop proposed - thanks to Groundloop by the way - and I used a #P600K 1000 V 6 A/22 A peak diode in parallel with the coil, and by switching 12 Volts manually into the coil, I observed a fast rising in diode temperature.

Maybe the energy of the back EMF is to high to be absorbed by the diode, or maybe the diode is not fast enough but in a normal coil circuit config, there is no diode in parallel with the coil.
It does'nt seem to affect the spark appearence dough.

Second, it seems to me that there is a capacitor missing. I would add one at the output of the bridge to get the cap dumping effect.

Thanks for sharing.

Hi Gibs,

thanks for the information. Maybe the diode is not needed. If you can, please test Groudloop's complete circuit since I have not built it wet. It's hot off the press and for the next 3 days I will be focused on building the half GEET plasma engine. So testing and trouble shooting will be up to all who build. Please share your findings and make your recommendations or changes to the circuit as long as it stays the most simple as possible for most anyone to build.

Luc

[gotoluc]

gotoluc, you have exposed a very nice and interresting explanation.
You are right. As much we appreciate the original design made by God (The Great Designer of the Nature) and try to copy it, the more we will succeed.

Cheers.

Thanks Kinetix for also confirming this most important element to which we neglected in most of our inventions.

Luc

[gmeast]

Discharge

Hi Greg,

try your 22uf in Groundloop's switching circuit first and if that does not work to your satisfaction try your 47uf. Also take note that the diode in parallel with the coil may cause a problem or is not needed. I have not built the circuit wet since it is hot off the press and for the next 3 days I will be focused on building the half GEET plasma engine. So testing and trouble shooting will be up to all who build. Please share your findings and make your recommendations as long as the circuit stays the most simple as possible for most anyone to build.

Luc

Thanks for responding,

Well, I reconfigured my circuit hardware to that of circuit 1 &2 . But I've used my relay in place of the of the SCR (thyristor ...whatever) and all that happened was my HV diode blew up. For the life of me I can't see where there is actually any capacitive discharge in the sample circuits. The cap charges via the resistor but then the + side of the cap gets yanked to ground when the SCR fires. I understand the SPDT and DPDT configurations like the ones I've already built, not this one but I respect and am grateful for Groundloop's input.

I think I'm going to stick to a DPDT or SPDT config. using two Triacs and a 4-quadrant control. This way I can mimic a relay. I may not need 4-quadrants though ... probably just two if I SPDT. If I don't blow up my stuff then I'll post the circuit ... it is smple triac gate driver using a resistor network and trippin' on the sine wave.

For those who have never before used solid state devices to charge capacitors I highly recommend that you ALWAYS use a current limiter somewhere on the supply side to limit the initial inrush current drawn by the capacitor. This suggestion will save a great deal of time, money and frustration ... mostly the latter.

Thanks. Peace,

Greg

[Gibs]

Inverter frequency

Hi everyone.
Gibs, let's suppose your engine is a 1cylinder 2 stroke.
That means it will have a spark each turn.
3600rpm means 3600 sparks per minute, and that means 60 sparks per second.
1 second divided by 60 equals 0.0166s per cycle (charge-discharge of the capacitor). That is about 17ms per cycle. If discharge time is 50us, that means the 2uF capacitor will have plenty of time to charge: let's say 16ms.
Now, the capacitor will fully charge in this time or not... That depends on the performance of your DC-DC converter (or inverter)... In that youtube video, 4uF was charged in 48ms, but at a low frequency (a few hundred Hz). As I allready said, mine (4.7uF) is charged in less than 1ms, but the frequency is much higher (33KHz).

Cheers.

Hi Kinetix,

I would be interested in viewing the Youtube vid that you mention, would you please send the link?

Thanks for mentioning the importance of the frequency output of the inverter.

Peace

[revizal]

Water Plasma on 100% gasoline engine

Here is the video link:
YouTube - Plasma Ignition - Lawnmower Running

All,
I've just tried what Tero used on his Lawnmower several times ago. It seems real simpler to switch plasma ignition thru original magneto engine's ignition system without relay, SCR, or reed switch. Yes, we could not adjust timming ignition (mean:retard it) but in my experience it hard to adjust timing engine with reed+relay. This engine runs smooth with more power. Just like Aaron's lawnmower, my genset runs even on fully closed throttle valve position.

Any suggestion if this circuit I runs on motorcycle without modification on original ignition system ?

Tero water plasma circuit.jpg

And this is the video:
YouTube - Engine Running On Plasma Ignition-2 (Gasoline)

Thanks,
Rev.