Water Sparkplug

[Aaron]

diode increases speed

Hi Lee,

What is it about adding components (diodes) that shortens the impulse time?

I agree with you but what is this telling us?

First of all, low voltage cannot move through the diodes until the voltage is lower on the cathode/output side. That means that the HV side must discharge across the gap and the diodes still won't open until the voltage drops below the LV source....is that your understanding?

So it appears that if anything, the time should be extended since the HV has to happen and then drop below the LV source then the LV source discharges through diodes.

If the LV comes before the HV drops below the LV, then that defeats the entire concept of how a diode is supposed to work.

I know for a fact that the HV enters the cathode of the HV diode(s). There are easy ways for anyone to see for themselves that the HV will enter a diode.

Here is a simple test for anyone to prove that HV CAN enter the diode the wrong way and for the fact that diodes have reverse ratings should be a hint that voltage can go through the "wrong" way.

HV/plug input/plug ground/ |<---(hv diode with cathode pointing to ground) / + of capacitor / - of capacitor / negative of primary of ignition coil

Basically, there is a cap/diode in series with the ground here with diode pointing to ground of plug. When the coil fires in any normal way, the spark will spark away as if there is no diode and you will see the capacitor slowly rises with each pulse getting charged by the HV output from secondary across gap.

I'm not pointing this out to you Lee, just posting this in general because so many people have a hard time believing me when I tell them the HV enters the diode before jumping a gap. And, I think it could be relevant to the time compression you're seeing on the scope when diodes are added.

Anyway, I've already proven it to myself that the HV does go "backwards" through a diode since it will be open when the HV starts and will then shut off.

The test that I'd like to see but I don't have the equipment for is to remove the diodes and monitor the voltage at the spark plug input. Add diodes and do same. I want to see if not only does the discharge happen faster, but the voltage increases beyond what the secondary outputs...(compression against diode when diode shuts off).

With a serious increase in the voltage instantaneously...as this jumps the gap, does it literally suck the current from the LV circuit offering a negative resistance for the lv to discharge into?

I'd like to see it disproved as much as proven because this will tell a lot.

The inclusion of the HV diode or diode string however, alters the capacitor discharge to around 10uS...

I still believe that the “effect” is the result of a very high energy short duration pulse.

[Radiant-1]

HV DOES flow into the cathode

@ Aaron

I'm not pointing this out to you Lee, just posting this in general because so many people have a hard time believing me when I tell them the HV enters the diode before jumping a gap. And, I think it could be relevant to the time compression you're seeing on the scope when diodes are added.

I finished my replication of the water spark plug this morning...and was doing some tests of diode string versus parallel capacitive discharge. I noticed that they are similar...but, the capacitive discharge can jump a longer gap, and does not explode the water like the diode string.
Well, I got lazy and disconnected the string from the LV positive...but, I left the cathode hooked to the HV lead...well, the second I triggered the cap I got a mild shock from the disconnected diode's anode (lucky I was ungrounded ). So yes, I can confirm that your theory is most likely the correct mode of operation.

[gmeast]

schematic

Hi everyone.
smw1998a, thank you again for sharing with us your video recorded tests.
I think that the capacitor discharges so quickly through the diodes because the resistance of that path is the smallest. If this is correct, we could increase the value of the capacitor to increase the time of the discharge phase.
I will attach the schematic that I use to generate 10-12mm plasma sparks (flashes). If you remove the diodes string, you will have a very nice CDI ignition, ready to be mounted on your car. It generates bright loud 20mm sparks on an old ignition coil. As the points are closed, the capacitor charges. When the points opens, the capacitor discharges through the ignition coil (and diodes string). At the same time, the oscilator is being stopped. When the points close again, the whole process restarts.

Best wishes.

K,

Thanx for the schematic. It is appreciated!

Peace,

Greg

[Ansis Freimanis]

About Capacitors.

I know (it is from times when I build Tube amplifiers) - capacitors are very different. The best is paper + aluminium/oil, then polypropylene and Teflon. The worst of all are electrolytic. If the capacitor is not in good condition (bad quality), then we can’t make it work at extreme conditions. And of course no current limiters- because capacitors suck current very deeply. After all circuit must work very quickly- charge/discharge. And s1r circuit is AC circuit too (in one picture drawing with pencil). Thank, You.

[magnetO]

Question to electrical skilled people.

Any suggestion if this circuit I runs on motorcycle without modification on original ignition system ?

[ATTACH]1057[/ATTACH]

Hi revizal,
hi Ahchoooo,
hi EE's,


the right side of the tero-circuit is in my opinion absolutly correct. It is a positive earth spark, on a positive earth engine. The discharge current and LV current go from J-electrode (outer electrode) to inner electrode and wiring.

But, left side of drawing! When (If) Battery is mounted on chassis together with engine, what pole of it has indeed to be grounded for positive earth?
Is it correct to ground (-)neg pole of battery?

I guess, no. There is a mistake on left side of drawing (at positive earth).

Some experts opinion, please.

Thanks
magnetO

[gotoluc]

Luc,
the caps that I used were 4kV 0.01uF and I used three of them in series.
I also tried using a microwave oven capacitor which is rated 2100VAC and 1.09uF. Nothing happens. This is because the capacitance is too large for my neon sign transformer since it is current limited and can output just 30mA at full voltage and maybe even less when lower AC voltage is used. I did not want to fry the cap in using higher input voltages, because I was already at about 4kV and that exceeds the cap ratings. Anyway, the output current is too low to allow the cap to charge to high enough voltage to jump the gap on each cycle. I noticed the same when I connected a small capacitor in parallel of the spark plug on my gas generator - there was no spark, because the capacitance was too high and just ate up the whole energy when charging. In your case you do not use any current limiting device, right? And that then could be just a high voltage high current discharge that could explode the water in the bruteforce way and consume much power.

Thanks for the reply and information Jetijs. I didn't think it would work either with that low of current. Thanks for giving it a try.

Yes, I did not use any current limiting device on the MOT and cap test other than the 15 amp fuse

I'm working on my half geet plasma engine at this time but after that is done I'll play around with the MOT Cap setup and see if a single cap disharge works and calculate the energy used for spark intensity compare to the basic circuit.

Luc

[gotoluc]

Quote:
I'm not pointing this out to you Lee, just posting this in general because so many people have a hard time believing me when I tell them the HV enters the diode before jumping a gap. And, I think it could be relevant to the time compression you're seeing on the scope when diodes are added.

Hi all

There is a sequence of high energy events occurring. Forgive me for not being able to find the original person to credit the quote above ... I searched. The following pictures are in sequence captured from one of the videos I made of my water sparkplug replication. In my setup my sparkplug ground/electrode end sits on a cylinder of white Teflon. The images show a pre-event manifest as a purple spot, projection or shadow of the electrode down onto the camera facing side of the Teflon cylinder but do not illuminate the plug itself. I am sure this is not a video artifact because each of these events PRECEDES the bright flash that follows. Example: Grab 01 and Grab 02 are a pair in sequence, etc.

Other explanations are welcome.

Peace,

Greg

Hi Greg,

before you put too much work in this (like I did) I can tell you for sure that these are artifacts done by your video camera. I had similar events and even better looking just before the spark and spent much time doing slow motion videos to show this. I finally did tests that concluded it was the video camera doing these effect just prior to the main spark event. Look at frame 01 and 05 of your first set and if you look well you see the form of your J electrode. That one is a dead giveaway. Something in the frame scans that causes this half frame to appear.

Sorry man! it's not worth more time.

Luc

[Aaron]

3 frames of effect

Here is a sequence of a burst I got when filming the effect at 50hz. Not ultra clear but none are camera effects from reflections, etc...

[UncleFester]

Commercial ignition drivers

@ Everyone,

I've been toying with acquiring an after market CDI to use for these experiments. I found most to be too specific then I ran into an article on the Mallory HyFire 6EZL CDI. It triggers off of your existing system's coil and your factory system stays intact. It's around $250.00 but it might work on magneto-fired engines. I don't really know where I'm going with this and it might be too much of a $ risk just to see if it can be adapted to our collective 'Engine Project(s)". I still might get one just to see if I can make it run my genset. In the mean time I'm waiting for the Triacs for my circuit. I will post the results of that effort if I don't turn everything into purple smoke, tee hee.

Any info' helps I guess. Peace,

Greg

I've used that driver and two others from Mallory. They don't have enough energy to explode water. Looks like around 1 joule @ 12 volts is the right energy level. Only one driver on the market will do that, it's a Crane Cams ignition capacble of 1.2 joules. I have five of them coming for testing on the firestorm plugs and will test them on water with diode.

Groundloops circuit works but not enough energy, even when increasing the capacitance from 2.2uF to 6.8uF. SCR blows after going any higher than that. My Mosfet driver works ok, but still not enough energy, or blows the fuse on a 1kv variac.

Lee's circuit I have been able to get to work, but it's tricky to get the SCR driver portion tuned so that it fires correctly. I could not get nearly the energy level as seen in his smw1998a videos.

[tstorey]

Don't know about this part of effect

I am not convinced of "combustion." Are any of you?

Hydrogen burns really hot (3000+). An H torch is the hottest of them all.

No one is reporting "hot" are they?

Sure there is some heat and yes, the effect is small but...1200 degrees F? 1600 degrees F?

The assumption in the world of "exploding water" is electromagnetism and or high heat causing a disassociation of H20 molecules, then the result of this reaction, hydrogen combining with oxygen to combust for the "effect."

Yes, there is heat, but not the type of heat suggested by the above assumption. Over 1200 degrees F.

The noise emission is not like a thermal combustion "reaction"...it is a shock wave..it is deafening. How is this speck of H gas requiring hearing protection?

The light emission does not suggest thermal combustion. Keep in mind I have no idea what I am talking about as we are only looking at youtubes. Why do we need sunglasses to look at such a small bit of H gas exploding, gentlemen?

Do you know what it sort of looks like?

A nebula. I have looked at as many "Hydrogen flames/sparks" as I can find and nothing looks like the effect you guys are creating...nothing....Ok, a nebula.

It is a spark, but I have NEVER seen a spark like that..ever.

That pop is a shock wave, but it certainly does not seem like a thermal combustion/expansion "explosion" shock wave.

It just doesn't look like a flame...but what the hell do I know.

Thanks to all of you guys. I get home from work and this is the first place I come.

T

[Radiant-1]

I just had an epiphany

@ Everyone!!!

This "water spark plug" is the most basic and straight forward manifestation of Puriarch's patent #4394230, which was the slightly redrawn and patented again by Stanley Meyer's (his water plug). I have taken the liberty to add in a little piece I was "given"...(Let me first state that I have been up for over 24hrs now...on absolutely no drugs , something has compelled me to make this compilation and share it).
I now understand the importance of "splitting the positive...and let me share it with all you...this Water spark plug is bigger then many of you may imagine!

First, let me start with Puriarch...This is an illustration of his patent, which I have taken the time to highlight for your enrichment, the EXACT same specifics of this here experiment!!! Only, with a different inner electrode WATER!!!
On the left, the original...on the right my notes...


Now Meyer's


I hope that it clicks for everyone else now!!! We have all the parts now, lets uncover this and send it to all!! And, GOODNIGHT zzZZZ

[goldenequity]

WoH!
A LOT of graphic work here Radiant... no wonder you were up so long...
nicely done man!
Are you saying that the positive is being "split" by the design of a HV positive charge on the water but then pulsed and air-gapped from the LV positive electrode (which then acts as an electron extractor)?
I think I get it... but want to make sure.
anyway.... nicely done.... are YOU fabricating this? Is anyone?

@Aaron... I went to review a vid you posted on Youtube... and found your account "suspended".
What's up with that???

[smw1998a]

diode increases speed

Hi Lee,

What is it about adding components (diodes) that shortens the impulse time?

I agree with you but what is this telling us?

Hello Aaron,
The internet is a wonderful thing but sometimes you just can’t beat sitting across a table to discuss such things. As our table is the North Atlantic, the internet it is!

First of all, low voltage cannot move through the diodes until the voltage is lower on the cathode/output side. That means that the HV side must discharge across the gap and the diodes still won't open until the voltage drops below the LV source....is that your understanding?

Yes, the voltage across the diode/s needs to be lower on the cathode/output side to allow current to pass. This condition is true at the moment of switch closure. In my circuit, once the capacitor is charged there are two paths to ground the instant the SCR conducts. As the ignition coil’s primary winding and secondary winding share a common ground, the first path is the low resistance ignition coil primary winding and the second path is the high resistance ignition coil secondary winding through the diode/s.

The diode/s will conduct at this point in time because the voltage on the capacitor is greater than the voltage on the secondary winding. However, as the capacitor discharges, the potential on the secondary winding increases rapidly as the voltage on the capacitor goes to ground via the primary winding and soon the increasing voltage in the secondary winding exceeds the decreasing voltage in the capacitor.

At this moment the diode/s become reverse biased and block the rapidly rising voltage in the secondary winding. Not instantly, as you say. No diode is perfect and a certain amount of voltage/current will pass in the reverse direction. I would certainly leave the amount passed open to debate as I’m unable to measure. There is a possibility of a positive feedback loop action here.

In the case of the Water Sparkplug IV demo, my capacitor voltage will have dropped from 250v to 220v in 20uS while all the above has happened. The potential on the secondary is still not high enough to produce a spark. The only ground path for the energy stored in the capacitor is now the primary winding.

As I reported before, it is my belief that the actions described above significantly reduce the resistance normally present in the secondary winding during the discharge of the capacitor, reducing the time of the discharge greatly and increasing the abruptness of the discharge. Considering the possibility of HV feedback across the diode/s from the secondary to the primary would only enforce the apparent reduction of resistance.

I'm not pointing this out to you Lee, just posting this in general because so many people have a hard time believing me when I tell them the HV enters the diode before jumping a gap. And, I think it could be relevant to the time compression you're seeing on the scope when diodes are added.

The test that I'd like to see but I don't have the equipment for is to remove the diodes and monitor the voltage at the spark plug input. Add diodes and do same. I want to see if not only does the discharge happen faster, but the voltage increases beyond what the secondary outputs...(compression against diode when diode shuts off).

Agreed, it is difficult to observe something that is so fast and difficult to measure with basic equipment. The only point I would attempt to measure is across the cap which is essentially the LV primary winding. My digital scope goes potty when in proximity to the circuit let alone connected to it.

With a serious increase in the voltage instantaneously...as this jumps the gap, does it literally suck the current from the LV circuit offering a negative resistance for the LV to discharge into?

I’m not to sure about this Aaron. I still view the coil as a transformer, what is dumped through the primary winding will appear, stepped up, across the secondary. The quicker the cap can dump the greater the output from the secondary. As I said previously, I have worked with CDI systems before but have never seen such a spark as what we are studying now. I don’t fully understand the mechanism of the effect but I can see the reason for the effect.

I'd like to see it disproved as much as proven because this will tell a lot.

Me too!!! I’m no EE and there seems to be a deafening silence from those who think they do know all there is to know about transformers etc. This is a good thing IMO, this means that Luc’s circuit is doing something out of the ordinary or unexpected at least. The only way forward is by experiment, which suits me! I’m very happy to study and learn about the effect its self, as I don’t have the resources for engine conversion attempts. I would like to carry out a broader range of experiments but this will take time. A much improved charge pump will allow greater capacitance to be used and larger gaps at higher frequencies. My circuit is quite limited for these reasons and therefore my observations are also limited.

Kindest regards to you all, Lee….

[Aaron]

Plasma Ignition Patents

Download this file: Plasma Ignition Patents

That is a zip file with some patents I've studied. They happen to show almost everything I have done. Notes are below and also in a word doc in the zip file. Please read them thoroughly. I believe they will get most everyone on the same page.

FOR INFO VISIT THIS THREAD:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...sparkplug.html

If you’re new there, read every post before asking questions because the questions have probably already been answered.

Registration is free. If after 3 days you can’t post or see attachments, just email info @ esmhome.org and ask to be approved. Please do NOT private message any member here asking for access.




THESE NOTES ARE JUST BRIEF NOTES FOR THE PATENTS IN THIS ZIP FILE

1307088 – Original prior art of plug enhancement referenced in some plasma ignition patents. Just use for reference.

2864974 – There are MANY patents that go way back with a capacitor in parallel with the plugs. No diodes or anything. These are “peaking capacitors” and by simply adding them, the spark is bigger. A few hundred pf’s at 10kv or more is sufficient. You want the capacitance small enough that on each pulse the voltage can get as high as the spark plug gap breakdown voltage. I am amazed at what companies have the audacity to charge hundreds for this technology. A couple bucks for one of these caps in parallel across the plug works with a regular battery input to a coil or CDI…it works.

3551738 – You can see the “keep alive power supply” is a DC power supply in parallel across the plug as a LV source. SCR triggers HV discharge across gap and the LV follows. This keep alive power supply is about 100ma in power at whatever voltage.

The Traveling Spark Ignition patents are the Suckewer patents showing the diode method. The commercial company that has products or at least are soliciting investors for this is: Welcome to Knite, Inc. This is virtually identical to what Gotoluc independently came across with the diode from a LV source. The control direct ignition patent is also theirs. The high pressure APPLICATION (not patent) is basically the same as the traveling spark ignition patents but is for higher pressure engines of a couple hundred psi. That is NOT necessary for most engines. What’s different in that primarily is that there are multiple cap discharges in succession in each cycle to rapidly pump with the Lorentz force the plasma so that it can eject into the combustion chamber. Also make note of how the windings on the ignition coil is less.

Nasa Plasma Ignition patent is a good one. Showing non-diode method for discharging a lower voltage source….using spark gap or synchronized dual triggers. They are showing 1000v MINIMUM and preferably a few thousand volts at like 100uf. Look at their plug shape…when dealing with plasma, they have to all sound fancy and call them ignitors. The plugs eject a donut shape plasma that is pumped out by lorentz force like blowing smoke rings. They are also using 12v input to the primary of a coil instead of capacitance discharge.

If you want to get the results I did with plasma bursts from my plugs that were bigger than a golf ball, simply use the booster cap method. Forget about doing everything from one small cap if you want to move towards water power. Forget about running it on a car…just make it work on a gas generator…there are fewer variables to mess with. There is steady rpm and it is a nice test. Check craigslist for cheap generators in your area or cheap lawnmowers…remove the blade so you don’t cut off your foot.

Anyway, if you get it to work with the stock magneto as the primary trigger for the booster caps, then great. It will work…again, read the whole thread. You have to deal with waste spark issues if using HHO but probably not an issue if using only water. You are responsible for your own safety and damage to any of your engines, etc… This is provided just for educational purposes.

All this stuff has been patented for quite a while. The nasa one goes back to the 70’s. So if there are issues with patents with the diodes, use the non-diode methods with spark gap or synchronized trigger. However, it appears to be legal to copy any patent for personal use to demo the concept to yourself. But you can’t build them for anyone else or sell them or use them for commercial use without compensating the inventors.

These ignition methods for the purpose of fully burning water are public domain and the patents are for more lean burn running engines, etc… but they don’t talk about using water as a fuel…so possibly these patents cannot even be enforced for anyone that wants to use them for burning water commercially. Possibly…consult your own attorneys for details.



For golf ball size plasma bursts in open air with a regular spark plug do this:

Use a regular capacitor discharge into the primary of an ignition coil. Have a separate power supply charging a cap bank of 330uf 400v (don’t overcharge the caps!!!)…I used 1000v 6a diodes… a string of 15 of them and it worked fine. Put that cap/diode setup across the plug and OPEN UP THE GAP BIGGER…for bigger bursts. It is probably safer to use an inverter or variac through a voltage multiplier to charge those caps instead of a microwave supply. HV can KILL you so don’t do any of this unless you know what you are doing, are qualified, etc…

Anyway, the above is EXACTLY what I did and got golf ball size plasma bursts…actually bigger…and if you spray tap water or distilled water on it, the effect gets much bigger…on these big bursts, notice the orange flame front. That cap bank booster is obviously enough to more than eject the plasma from the plug.

USE REAL HEARING PROTECTION AND VERY DARK SUNGLASSES when working with this plasma. X-rays are also emitted so use a lead suit if you want, I don't know how much of a concern it is at this level.

[Aaron]

youtube banned my vids

Goldenequity,

Youtube has taken it upon themselves to permanently suppress and ban every single one of my videos and they refuse to comment on it. They won't respond to me no matter what.

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...s-youtube.html