Water Sparkplug

[Chris31]

I am pretty much electronics illiterate but have alot of experience with ICE.

For the past 6 months I have been experimenting with lean burn, ignition systems, fuel injectors.

In the performance arena (years ago) we used to believe this term "once its lit its lit". Refering to the spark firing an air/fuel mixture.
As I and many have found, this is not strictly true. A strong spark does have a positve effect.

Another thing we used to believe also was that it was voltage that you wanted at the spark as opposed to amps. We all got CDI ignitions with this high voltage short duration spark with low amps using 50000 volt coils. CDI was great in the days of single points distributor setup as it seemed to do the job.

Lean mixtures are the hardest mixtures to ignite. However I have found that CDI ignitions are not really good for this. It is the high amperage long duration sparks that light really lean mixtures the best . I have better success with a 20000volt HEI coil in an iductive setup as it delivers more amps and fires leaner mixtures than the CDI I USED to use.

The plasma spark is better again. I am not clear whether you guys are chasing voltage, amps or plasma at the spark tip but I am just providing this info as food for thought as I believe spark duration and amps at the spark plug is a positive for combustion.

Regards

I agree with you there, longer, hotter, fatter sparks is needed for lean mixture.

I have played with multisparks CDI, its firing 16 sparks closely together, the engine carried on running a few seconds longer than with single spark.

The test was on a 2 stroke engine, no carb, no muffler, I squirt alittle fuel (alcohol + veg oil) in the intake and it would run for about 5 seconds, it slowly rev upto 8,000-9,000 RPM before running out of fuel to burn.

With multisparks it carried on running a few more seconds, even at a very low speed where a single spark would have stopped. That wasnt running a plasma though, I have blown the string of diodes at the time. Problem with multisparks plasma is it needs alot of power.

You did say more amps through the sparks? I think this is very important. This is why I asked if VexUs is able to burn a paper, high current creates hotter sparks orangey in colour rather than the typical blue weak sparks.

My new CDI/plasma design will pump out 1.7J per spark. Too much interference its locking up the controller, so plenty of work to do still. I couldnt run it for too long either, the ignition coil tend to overheat very quickly. Im sure something will fry if I leave it running for 3mins at 3000RPM with 16 sparks. I know its overkill, but I want to make sure I get results even for a few seconds.

I just bought a knock sensor off ebay, I hope to be able to add it to the project later on. This project is all going to the new Briggs & Stratton engine I bought a week ago. With the waste sparks, not sure whats the best way to eliminate that, but at the moment Im sticking with sync it manually by hand then the controller only fire the sparks every other revolution.

I think it will have to be very lean fuel mixture + water vapour to cool the engine down.

Once its all stable, fuel vapouriser is to be added. Too much to do but theres never enough time

[Chris31]

But also we seek to get this effect with some simple electrical components that can be 'piggybacked' onto existing ICE's without gutting the ignition system (if possible).

Thats the beauty of the VexUs, its very simple

My design got too complicated LOL, I dont even know if it will work as good

[jamiec]

Hi turbotrana
Or should that be a turbo torana .Good to see another Aussie on here. Im looking at this plasma spark
to run very lean A/F ratios. A very lean mix thats vapourized so that i
can increase the compression ratio that wont pre ignite. Lean fuel + higher compression should get much better economy with more power i hope.

[lapperl]

Bill's Nexus Circuit in Vehicle Update

Just wanted to update everyone on my progress. I have noticed that the diode banks I constructed have a tenancy to fail and cause cross talk (miss firing) after about 100 miles or so. I found that due to the way that I arranged the diodes in close proximity to each other, the HV breaks down the insulator I used and then jumps across to the nearest diode and reduces the blocking voltage. On my first diode banks I used Liquid Electrical tape on the diode leads, bent the bank every third diode and then Shrink wrapped the entire assembly. In an attempt to correct this issue, I bent the diodes back into a straight line, added another layer of liquid tape, applied a smaller size shrink wrap over the straight string of diodes and then bent them at every fifth diode to make them three wide. This version worked for a short while longer, but ultimetely still failed in the same fashion. After 150 miles the cross talk began again. I have come to the conclusion that if using a string of lower voltage diodes, they must be kept in a straight line configuration or at least maintain a distance of 1/2 inch between the leads. In my opinion, the easiest way to resolve this issue is to just use 2 to 4 HV diodes in parallel just as gmeast does. So I have ordered some 15KV 550ma diodes today and will install them as soon as they arrive. Until then the testing is on hold.

I can report that during the 100 and 150 durations, I have not had any inverter issues. I do not have any TVS installed in the circuit. I am planning on using them, but haven't ordered them yet. Need to have more items to purchase from Mouser to justify shipping costs. The TVS's don't cost very much.

Performance still appears to be enhanced using the plasma (until the diodes fail). Easier cold starts, smoother idle and acceleration. I cannot report on MPG's due to the diode issues, but I am remaining optimistic. I hope to replace the diodes and be able to use an entire tank of fuel or two to be able to make a comparison. I have been tracking my fuel consumption for some months and have a very good base line to judge it against. Once this has been done, I will begin to play with the fuel management system in order to lean out the fuel mixture.

But for now, one step at a time.

Sorry for the long winded post, but I haven't been able to post for the last couple of days and just wanted to keep everyone up to date.

Until next time,

LapperL

[Aaron]

oscillator radiant spikes

Hi Kinetix,

This is an example of what one of my old Bedini oscillator's outputs.
Great for charging caps. About 13v in and about 440v out...radiant
spikes. I actually did use a full bridge on the output but it isn't necessary. This was a 2000 turn trifilar and a 2n3055 transistor.

Are you shure your oscilator does not make sine wave oscilations in the secondary winding? If it does, than a full bridge it's the best choice for it.
I have also made a selfoscilator, and monitored the output: it was a perfect sine wave...
Well, our experiences could be diferrent.
All the best.

[Aaron]

multiple plasma discharge

Hi everyone,

I see issues of not wanting to burn plugs.

The answer was really addressed in some of the Suckewer patents. I put a bunch of relevant patents into a zip file and it is in this thread somewhere.

Nasa for example was using several hundred uf's up to several thousand volts...not on spark plugs but "igniters"...different geometry to emit donut shaped bursts. Anyway, point is, that power will kill plugs fast because impulses with that many joules will can easily disintegrate just about anything.

The other patents get around the plug damage this way: it is basically multiple spark discharge from the low voltage source several times per cycle. Each successive impulse pumps the plasma with Lorentz force to eject it from the plug far into the combustion chamber.

So instead of one gigantic crazy burst, you produce 4-7 smaller multiple bursts really quick. This way it prevents the plug from wearing down and you also maintain the plasma effect for longer. It is basically MSD (multiple spark discharge) but with this plasma effect.

[ashtweth]

Hi Aaron after about 4-5 pages i couldn't find any of these patent references with key words, can you give me some key words? ill add them to the summery (Patents) PS, some one should test iridium and platinum plugs.

Ash

[mrbreau]

Patents link

The link to the zip files in in post # 749 of this thread. I tried the permalink but don't know how that works. Sorry.

Post # 749 is on page 25 of this thread near the bottom of the page.

Warren
..

[ashtweth]

Warren thanks man, how do i find post # 749
sorry for being slow man
Can you give me a page number?

[Kinetix]

Hi all.
Jetijs, it seems you were right about your oscilator.
I think the red diode that you added last time in your schematic it's a very simple way to obtain plasma in your setup, without the booster part. The effect will be more intensifyied if you will use a bigger cap charged by the selfoscilator.
Aaron, thank you very much for the clarifying picture and explanation.
Chris31, I don't think that a more red spark is hotter than a blue/white one. On the contrary...
In order to burn a piece of paper, the spark must have a long duration. With its one or two hundreds of microseconds duration, even a plasma spark can't do much. I managed to burn a piece of plastic using sparks, but it was a multispark, running continuous setup. The visual appearence was like a long, continuous plasma spark.
Lapperl, glad to hear about your updated progress. The diodes string must indeed be very well insulated. Try to introduce them into a thick rubber/silicone tube, as revizal did.
All the best.

[Aaron]

reference links to other posts

Hi Warren,

I'm not too sure how the whole permalink link (at top right of each post) works. It never seems to take me straight to the post. But the #xxx to the left of the permalink link works better. It just simply opens that single post with no others in the thread but it is direct. You can right click on those links and "copy link location" at least that is in firefox and explorer or others browsers might say something else, then they can be pasted into the message.

The link to the zip files in in post # 749 of this thread. I tried the permalink but don't know how that works. Sorry.

Post # 749 is on page 25 of this thread near the bottom of the page.

Warren
..

[gmeast]

multi-spark w/plasma

Hi everyone,

I see issues of not wanting to burn plugs.

The answer was really addressed in some of the Suckewer patents. I put a bunch of relevant patents into a zip file and it is in this thread somewhere.

Nasa for example was using several hundred uf's up to several thousand volts...not on spark plugs but "igniters"...different geometry to emit donut shaped bursts. Anyway, point is, that power will kill plugs fast because impulses with that many joules will can easily disintegrate just about anything.

The other patents get around the plug damage this way: it is basically multiple spark discharge from the low voltage source several times per cycle. Each successive impulse pumps the plasma with Lorentz force to eject it from the plug far into the combustion chamber.

So instead of one gigantic crazy burst, you produce 4-7 smaller multiple bursts really quick. This way it prevents the plug from wearing down and you also maintain the plasma effect for longer. It is basically MSD (multiple spark discharge) but with this plasma effect.

Hi Aaron,

This is very possible but the ignition coil would need to have a different spec' in order to get the re-charge for multiple event (providing we use the same architecture of a coil, cap diode that is). I've tried to produce the same bright blue-white plasma from just a cap discharge and it ain't the same as with a cap, inductor (coil) and an HV diode.

I'm staying the course with my present efforts but am thinking about a self initiated, free-running, in-line component that keeps pulsing the coil upon initiating the ignition cycle ... then it self-times out. This might fit in with the 'drop in' approach as our second priority. The VexUs circuit might be a good guinea pig for this ... and I have one ... tee hee.

Just blabbing. And thanks again for the voltage multiplier circuit you sent me long ago.

Peace,

Greg

[Aaron]

patent references

Here is the post with the patents zip link:

http://www.energeticforum.com/27633-post749.html

"Also make note of how the windings on the ignition coil is less. " That is also in the Suckewer patent(s). Many of these plasma ignition patents have modified ignition coils, something I'm not sure if anyone has delved into.

ASH - Maybe try
wear
gap
growth
damage

[Aaron]

coil with fewer winds

Hi Greg,

Nice synchronicity on the coil mention. Even in a few others patents relating to some of these concepts, the coil has fewer windings. In the Suckewer patents, I think they even give specifics.

[Chris31]

Chris31, I don't think that a more red spark is hotter than a blue/white one. On the contrary...
In order to burn a piece of paper, the spark must have a long duration. With its one or two hundreds of microseconds duration, even a plasma spark can't do much. I managed to burn a piece of plastic using sparks, but it was a multispark, running continuous setup. The visual appearence was like a long, continuous plasma spark.

Kinetix, I think you are right. The high energy discharge gives out longer duration sparks. Im sticking with high energy then start cutting down or upgrading as necessary. The ultimate goal here is to run engine with water.

I remember a mention of - to run the firestorm plug, the ignition circuit should provide 1J of energy atleast.

I dont know if these sparks is able to improve MPGs further out of a modern already efficient engine.