Water Sparkplug

[gotoluc]

has anyone ever disassembled one of these motors to see what damage or rust is accumulating on wrist pins or piston rings? how is the oil holding up? any corrosion on head valves? I would like to hear from people on the damage encountered from H2O tech in ICE's...If any

Hi TRON,

I'm quite sure no one has experimented to that extent yet.

It maybe a while before we get data like that.

Luc

[UncleFester]

Hi UncleFester,

it's been a while since you posted. Are you still working on R&D for Robert Krupa?

I was wondering what you were up to theses days. Can you give us an update?

Thanks

Luc

Bob could not prove the claims he had made about the plug and the investor pulled all funding and kept the new patent. Bob has no skills for building anything so we had to do all the work for him, and yet without any education on what plasma reactions are, or do, he could not give us all the parameters to reproduce his claimed doubling of horsepower and 70 percent better mileage. The engines we ran could not run past 20:1 air/fuel which is normal. Bob claimed they would run up to 60:1 or more.

He blamed it on my electronics and other things, but in the end, he simply did not know what he was doing. He is now off trying to find another investor to hand him over $200,000 so he can keep up his lifestyle.

[aljhoa]

Distributorless Ignition

Hi rosco1,

The only plug style that I have witnessed creating a decent 'volume' or 'ball' (if you will) of plasma-looking stuff is the Firestorm replica. The side gap marine plugs show the effect but not at the same density. At the same time, I'm sure you saw the pictures of the Firestorms I posted (this page) with surprisingly little disintegration in contrast to what others have experienced ... I only used a 2uF dump cap though. Aquapulsar and replcators of the VexUs and Nexus used huge cap values ... 10 - 30 or even 100 uF. That destroys plugs but make for an impressive show in open air.

Using a Firestorm, we need to fire a steam saturated, sealed volume of air at 125 PSI and watch for the pressure rise ... next project.

Greg

“then it's simply too powerful to be practical” Large Capacitor Banks are used in metal forming technology where water-plasma interaction generates supersonic pressure waves that create internal stress over 150,000psi in formed metal parts.

“Using a Firestorm, we need to fire a steam saturated, sealed volume of air at 125 PSI and watch for the pressure rise ... next project.” There will be negligible heat addition from plasma-water interaction because, “These ð -far infrared rays create a strong gravitational cavity that causes the substances to focus inward when burning.” See the following link

http://www.panaceauniversity.org/Hyd...Combustion.pdf
http://www.panaceauniversity.org/Hyd...Combustion.pdf

Note that, at pressures caused be engine’s compression ratio, normal ignition coil creates large plasma plume for sparkplugs with the Van-De-Graaff type electrodes. Also this type of electrodes minimize erosion at higher currents.
See the following links:
Chapter 2: Electromagnetism

Science Links Japan | Production of Atmospheric-Pressure Nitrogen Glow Discharge Using Pulsed Power Technologies and its Characteristics.


Introducing water vapor with the gasoline reduces combustion time by the fact that plasma sparkplug generates supersonic explosion with multiple plasma balls acting as ignition points. The larger the “fire-ball” the shortest time of combustion process that must generate the maximum pressure of Nitrogen And Steam at 14 deg ATDC in order to minimize the affect of crank-shaft-rod-geometry and maximize the torque.

See the NASA report Figure 3 titled “Oscilloscope traces of chamber pressure as function of crank angle.”
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/ca...1977016170.pdf

Figure 3 also show that combustion ends 50deg ATDC and Nitrogen/Steam still has a lot of pressure. Thus from 5deg to 175deg ATDC Nitrogen and Steam are waiting to produce useful work by firing plasma sparkplugs to exploit small supersonic pressure pulses. In this range 43 plasma pulses, with spacing of about 4degrees, can be created and summated.
To test this affect requires dual ignition one working BTDC and second producing kinetic energy ATDC. Very simple homemade distributorless ignition using photo-interrupters to detect crank angle can accomplish this.
Al

[gotoluc]

Bob could not prove the claims he had made about the plug and the investor pulled all funding and kept the new patent. Bob has no skills for building anything so we had to do all the work for him, and yet without any education on what plasma reactions are, or do, he could not give us all the parameters to reproduce his claimed doubling of horsepower and 70 percent better mileage. The engines we ran could not run past 20:1 air/fuel which is normal. Bob claimed they would run up to 60:1 or more.

He blamed it on my electronics and other things, but in the end, he simply did not know what he was doing. He is now off trying to find another investor to hand him over $200,000 so he can keep up his lifestyle.

Thank you UncleFester for giving us an update with so much details.

I'm truly sorry it didn't pan out the way we thought it was or could of.

I now understand your disappointment in your prior post!... this is quite a letdown

Thank you for being honest with us all and sharing your research experience with Robert Krupa.

Luc

[aljhoa]

Otto cycle is Nitrogen and Steam Engine

Hi TRON,

I'm quite sure no one has experimented to that extent yet.

It maybe a while before we get data like that.

Luc

Each car, having 20 gal gas tank, produces and is running on 20 gal of Water.
Al

[aljhoa]

Thank you UncleFester for giving us an update with so much details.

I'm truly sorry it didn't pan out the way we thought it was or could of.

I now understand your disappointment in your prior post!... this is quite a letdown

Thank you for being honest with us all and sharing your research experience with Robert Krupa.

Luc

“I'm truly sorry it didn't pan out the way we thought it was or could of.”
What are you implying?
The cage and ball produce “plasma plume”; the question is what to do with it?
Al

[gotoluc]

“I'm truly sorry it didn't pan out the way we thought it was or could of.”
What are you implying?
The cage and ball produce “plasma plume”; the question is what to do with it?
Al

Hi aljhoa,

thank you for sharing all the interesting information.

Looking forward in seeing a video of your experiments on the ideas you have shared.

Please keep us updated on your progress

Luc

[UncleFester]

“I'm truly sorry it didn't pan out the way we thought it was or could of.”
What are you implying?
The cage and ball produce “plasma plume”; the question is what to do with it?
Al

Any plug produces a plasma, the cage and ball do not add to this effect, it just works slightly better than a normal plug at low energy levels (<1 Joule), but at higher energy levels (the level we need is 1.5 Joules or more) the Champion plug does much better. Video of both plugs side by side shows this very clearly. I made the mistake of leaving the champion plug and firestorm plug test setup working in the lab when I left to go get some sleep. The next morning the investor came in to see how we were progressing. The investor saw the side by side test and asked me why we were even working on the Firestorm plug. I didn't have an answer for him.

I also ended up finding an engineer on the east coast who actually had the drawings of the plug before it was patented. Bob was apparently staying with him for a short period of time. So it appears as though he probably is not even the original inventor of the plug, which explains why he has very limited knowledge of the effects of the plug.

Test runs on engines showed that ANY form of plasma ignition helps lower emissions and the engine runs smoother, but there are no miracles to be had at energy levels in the 1.5 to 5 Joule range. Higher energy levels than this erode the plug material quite rapidly and don't allow us to run straight water in the form of small particles of ultrasonic origin or steam. They do explode, but they don't create enough explosive force to move a piston.

I am not telling you this to discourage you, I am only stating the truth of what we found after 8 months of hard experimentation and two hundred thousand dollars in investor funding. We had some of the best test equipment and funding anyone could hope for, and had another high end lab working in unison with us (Nology Labs) in California. Unfortunately they found the same results as us.

So by all means keep working on it if you have the patience, but we found no free lunch using this technology. Now, if you had a plasma reformer BEFORE the intake AND plasma ignition, you might have something that could process water enough to make it run an engine, but we didn't try this. We only ran closed loop steam systems which failed. All our other tests were with standard gasoline and plasma ignition setups.

[aljhoa]

Uncle Fester, what was the configuration of the Champion plug (Type of electrodes, electrode spacing, w or w/o resistor. Other variables like pressure, relative humidity, KVolts or nitrogen levels were the same?)?
Pl’s provide some input to my post #2583.
Al

[rosco1]

Many thanks.

All our other tests were with standard gasoline and plasma ignition setups.

May I ask more information of you in relation to this last aspect of your post?

I appreciate you saying that a water only engine is not on the horizon thus far, with this approach at least, yet I beg to question what of the gasoline engine and plasma concept? Wasn't there anything encouraging there?

I'm currently in the process of gearing up to run a set of custom made plasma plugs in my gasoline engine, with water/methanol augmentation.

I'm already finding encouraging results thus far with a simple HEI ignition, Kiker leads and Brisk Premium LGS plugs, with gasoline and a controlled 50/50 water methanol injection blend.

At this point I'm only running a single shooter nozzle for the water/meth and driven carefully, am finding my water/meth consumption to be roughly 1/3 of a gallon over 110 odd klm.

If driven aggressively, I can easily consume a full gallon over the same distance.

Once my custom plugs are ready to be installed, I was going to be running a Crane Cams HI6 and PS91 coil, along with the Kikers, retaining the HEI as the trigger.

My water is treated by reverse osmosis too.

I've also installed the hottest available thermostat in order to try to increase the combustion chamber temps as I found that the above combo reduced these by about 150-200 degrees.

Do you expect I'll see any change from what I'm achieving now, once I switch to plasma spark?

[aljhoa]

Uncle Fester, what was the configuration of the Champion plug (Type of electrodes, electrode spacing, w or w/o resistor. Other variables like pressure, relative humidity, KVolts or nitrogen levels were the same?)?
Pl’s provide some input to my post #2583.
Al

Uncle Fester's info can be misleading because, comparison should be done not by observing the plasma plume but also how much K-Volts takes to produce it and how big of a supersonic pressure wave it can create.

GMEAST has shown that sparkplug with the cage is capable of producing plasma plume solely from ignition coil. Thus this plasma plume, interacting with water violently in Nitrogen, produces Brown’s gas that in microseconds changes to plasma traveling at supersonic speed.

This can be exploited to shorten the gasoline burning time by having several plasma “explosions”, acting as supplemental ignition points, in the 10deg BTDC to 14deg ATDC range.

In the 5 deg ATDC to 175deg ATDC range the cage may interfere with plasma formation and sparkplug cross-sections of the post # 2486 http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...html#post48690 will be required. In this 5-175 deg range also higher energy levels (like aquapulser4700?) may be necessary to take the advantage of plasma-water kinetic energy acting at supersonic speed. At this speed 43 small pulses, about 4deg apart for the V8 engine, will summate to produce larger torque.
Al

[UncleFester]

Uncle Fester's info can be misleading because, comparison should be done not by observing the plasma plume but also how much K-Volts takes to produce it and how big of a supersonic pressure wave it can create.

GMEAST has shown that sparkplug with the cage is capable of producing plasma plume solely from ignition coil. Thus this plasma plume, interacting with water violently in Nitrogen, produces Brown’s gas that in microseconds changes to plasma traveling at supersonic speed.

This can be exploited to shorten the gasoline burning time by having several plasma “explosions”, acting as supplemental ignition points, in the 10deg BTDC to 14deg ATDC range.

In the 5 deg ATDC to 175deg ATDC range the cage may interfere with plasma formation and sparkplug cross-sections of the post # 2486 http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...html#post48690 will be required. In this 5-175 deg range also higher energy levels (like aquapulser4700?) may be necessary to take the advantage of plasma-water kinetic energy acting at supersonic speed. At this speed 43 small pulses, about 4deg apart for the V8 engine, will summate to produce larger torque.
Al

1. First we used a very high performance ignition coil and a capacitor of 700uF @ 400 VDC at first and both plugs (champion with no resistor and J-electrode removed and Firestorm). No mileage increase, smoother engine operation, 30 percent less emissions was the result. Almost identical performance from both plug styles. Water does explode from this setup using both plug styles as well, but does not give enough pressure to push a piston down.

2. Next we used a 3000uF charged to 600 VDC, no ignition coil (direct discharge to the plug chamber) for water explosion tests in a closed chamber. This explodes water and produces a VERY loud explosion, but does not produce enough pressure to move a piston down (actually it leaves a slight vacuum for some reason) and both plugs lose metallic material from the plug body. The molten metal particles showed like a fireworks display for about 1 millisecond after the initial current flow.

3. We used a 10 uF cap charged to 1800VDC, almost identical results as above.

4. We took Bob's V-8 T-bird and put the high end 1.5 Joule Crane ignition drivers and coils on it running gasoline. It has a modified computer which changes all of the air/fuel charts and can allow up to 60:1 air/fuel ratio. We ran it on a 300 Horsepower dyno. It showed reduced emissions and smoother engine performance at the standard 13-14:1 A/F ratio, but could not fire a charge leaner than 20:1 or it would start misfiring and the three exhaust gas analyzers would show very high HC's, which of course shows us we are not firing correctly and spitting unburnt HC's into the exhaust.

5. In the lab tests it was clear that even at 100 Joules or more the plasma would not effect a large enough area to reform a liquid in the form of fuel or water into a explosive mixture. The cage on the Firestorm actually limited the plasma from extending out further into the combustion chamber regardless of level of energy. The flash from the plasma effect on high speed camera's (60,000 frames per second) would fill the chamber, but not the actual plasma itself. We need the entire combustion chamber to be filled with plasma and this is simply not possible with a small park plug. You would need multiple electrodes protruding from the chamber surfaces and a very large amount of energy, probably in the 150-200 Joule range, which would be difficult for an alternator to keep up with even if we were only firing once at TDC and had no waste spark.

6. Running the Firestorm plugs (which were flawlessly machined using Beryllium-Copper and special ceramics) on a 2005 V-8 Toyota Tundra was one of our last tests. The Firestorm design has a major flaw in that the ball vibrates under combustion pressures and eventually cracks the surrounding ceramic which falls into the cylinder. After a few hundred miles we pulled all the plugs and stopped the test. It showed no improvement in mileage on a gasoline vehicle and caused the computer to gives us error codes of ignition malfunction (because of the Firestorm not having a resistor it creates major transient voltage conditions which cannot be snubbed by the stock ignition driver).

7. Bob claimed he could get a single piston Honda engine to run closed loop with steam and the Firestorm plug. He failed and the Investor pulled all funding and we left Utah.

[UncleFester]

May I ask more information of you in relation to this last aspect of your post?

I appreciate you saying that a water only engine is not on the horizon thus far, with this approach at least, yet I beg to question what of the gasoline engine and plasma concept? Wasn't there anything encouraging there?

I'm currently in the process of gearing up to run a set of custom made plasma plugs in my gasoline engine, with water/methanol augmentation.

I'm already finding encouraging results thus far with a simple HEI ignition, Kiker leads and Brisk Premium LGS plugs, with gasoline and a controlled 50/50 water methanol injection blend.

At this point I'm only running a single shooter nozzle for the water/meth and driven carefully, am finding my water/meth consumption to be roughly 1/3 of a gallon over 110 odd klm.

If driven aggressively, I can easily consume a full gallon over the same distance.

Once my custom plugs are ready to be installed, I was going to be running a Crane Cams HI6 and PS91 coil, along with the Kikers, retaining the HEI as the trigger.

My water is treated by reverse osmosis too.

I've also installed the hottest available thermostat in order to try to increase the combustion chamber temps as I found that the above combo reduced these by about 150-200 degrees.

Do you expect I'll see any change from what I'm achieving now, once I switch to plasma spark?

Try it. The Methanol/Water mix will give you more horsepower and fuel mileage, and low combustion temps. This has been done for many decades now. Our investor wanted an engine to run as Bob claimed. 70 percent better mileage, double the horsepower, and 80 percent less emissions. None of which were produced by our tests nor Nology. He wasn't interested in small gains because it would not have been able ot be sold to the big three in the U.S. You should see a small gain in mileage, a small gain in emissions reduction, and smoother engine running with plasma plugs, but your real gains will come from the water/Methanol.

[aljhoa]

“We need the entire combustion chamber to be filled with plasma and this is simply not possible with a small park plug.”
Uncle Fester
What are the reasons for filling constant volume chamber with plasma?
Al

[gotoluc]

Thank you UncleFester for sharing some of the test results

Luc