s1r9a9m9 water fuel circuit

[Aaron]

caps and diodes and relays

Hi Rick,

I have a very simplified idea for the car but don't have a sketch yet.

For the diodes, I have some great input from a few friends. I ordered some 15kv 550ma diodes for temporary use just to get back in the game from blowing out all the others. lol

I can probably get a handful of very big bangs from the plug with those until they blow so I have to watch it...basically I just want those to be able to just study the bare basic spark. I've seen what over 1000 volts as a booster cap bank will do...charged from a microwave power supply and basically the sky is the limit with the spark as long as you have diodes to handle it. How to get a spark "100 times" bigger than the basic single little cap spark? That is very easy to do with this cap booster method...but again...just need a diode solution to handle it.

An inverter timed with some relay solution that S1R shows in his diagram is hard to figure out with his drawing. I can trace the arrows but what I keep coming to as the bottom line is that the inverter output and ignition coil output meet at the plug synchronized. So with having a bare bones cdi (capacitive discharge ignition)...just a cap dump to the coil instead of 12v pulse, and that hv output meets a hv diode leaving a cap bank charged with a variac or inverter...timing issues go away...because as long as the cap bank is charged up fast enough...anytime the initial cap dump on the primary happens and that hv output goes out to the diode...stuff happens automatically timed and I think the whole relay deal is unnecessary unless there is more than meets the eye.

On S1R's relay diagram, he shows single diode leaving one ac line and one single diode coming back on the other ac line...so that is pulsed dc at only 60hz instead of full rectified 120hz pulsed dc. Everyone that I have seen so far is doing a full bridge from an inverter or whatever trying to duplicate S1R but that doesn't have anything to do with what S1R shows in his relay diagram. Check out the relay diagram...it will be half rectified so it is only 60hz dc. On an inverter it will only catch the top half of the modified sine wave leaving it.

Is there a reason for this that is beneficial? To save money on diodes? To slow down the pulses to make the timing work better? Is it the only way S1R knew how to make the AC into DC? etc...?

On each cycle and there is probably only 1 cycle worth of contact of the inverter with the ignition coil output at each time...that means there is about 4-5 joules of energy per pulse being added to the hv output of ignition coil. That is if there are around 400-500 watts at 115v or 160v peak.

Now with lower voltage higher capacitance...same thing...can keep it at about 300v range but just make the cap bank larger capacitance...serious big sparks...but same thing...need diodes to handle the surges.

[rickoff]

Aaron: S1r's relay circuit

Hi Aaron,

You're dead spot on about the relay circuit diagram, and what it shows. My thought on that diagram is that it was a concept sketch more than a working model diagram representing the end product. The basic principles are there, but no doubt he has made modifications and improvements since the prototype stage.

Incidentally, S1r claims that he is going to release some huge document in August that will explain everything he knows, and says that he will be clearing off all the current files stored at waterfuel1978 as of August 10th to make way for his colossal work. I guess we'll see. Frankly, though, I think that a 1 page diagram showing his actual El Camino circuitry and component values would suffice, along with perhaps one more page to describe tweaks and timing adjustments, etc.

Thanks for pointing me back to the Kiker patents. I made an in-depth study of them yesterday, and I will be posting my findings soon in the Kiker thread that you started. I am condensing it all down to the nitty gritty stuff that matters, so that anyone interested won't have to spend several hours reading the patents - like I did. The bottom line, though, is that while the Kiker wire appears to have similarities to the S1r "transformer," these are two entirely different animals.

I'd better hit the sack - it's getting light outside. Another late night session. There's just too much interesting stuff here!

Take care, Rick

[Aaron]

slow down the spark

Hi Rick,

The only similarity I see with the Kiker stuff is that if it is slowing down the spark at the plug, which Kiker claims...and that might possibly be what this nail transformer is doing.

I'll post something about a proven method to slow down the spark. I'll post the patent, pics, vid...has been done since the 70's.

[rickoff]

Aaron: Kiker vs Sir

Hi Aaron,

Yes, both the 5 turn coil Kiker wires and the Sir 5 turn main coil have the effect of retarding and prolonging the spark to varying degrees. I know there are a lot of other devices that can accomplish the same, and one of the oldest dates back to the early 1900's - the Meissner Spark Plug Intensifier.
See that at Meissner Spark Intensifier.jpg - Windows Live SkyDrive and also take a look at the Rentz "Lighthouse" spark plug which I have also posted in the same folder. Interesting, aren't they? Perhaps highly suited for use in water spark experiments, too. These devices retard the spark, because it takes time for the ignition coil to develop a voltage sufficent to bridge the gap, which is set wider than the actual plug gap. This results in a higher voltage, retarded spark of longer duration than normal at the lower end spark plug gap. Most people assume that the 30 to 40kv rated HV output from the ignition coil is almost entirely applied across the spark plug gap, but this isn't the case. Only about 5kv is normally applied, because the coil only needs to develop that amount to bridge the gap under normal driving conditions, and probably less at idle speeds. So that leaves a lot of room open for boosting the voltage actually applied from the ignition coil, especially if you are using a super HV racing coil. Perhaps a 10:1 or better boost over normal operation. Interestingly enough, Capacitor70 has been utilizing this additional spark gap approach in his latest circuit, combined with three high voltage capacitors in the picofarad range, to intensify voltage delivered to a step-up transformer with a turns ratio of 12p:32s. He has been getting great plasma arcs in open air tests, and also on the waste spark cycle of his engine, but no spark under compression. The engine he used for the earlier YouTube videos has been rebuilt with new rings, etc., so compression is maximized. I suggested that he utilize your Spark Amplification method to boost the output. Notice that his circuit is diodeless. Cap70 says he will probably need to revert to using at least one diode or more, as in his earlier circuit, and that makes sense when considering the slamming, compressive release that you describe at the HV/LV intersection with the diode. Can you make any suggestions as to how the current circuit could be most simply modified to achieve desired results under compression? If so, Cap70's circuit could be very useful in greatly reducing the number of diodes that we need for these water spark experiments and applications. See both the latest, and earlier Cap70's circuits here: Capacitor70 Transformer Circuit - Windows Live SkyDrive

Best, Rick

[Aaron]

spark prolonger

See this for a spark prolonger
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...939-814-a.html

[Aaron]

capacitor 70's circuit

Hi Rick,

Capacitor 70's working model diagram makes more sense to me than the other. It appears he is using a cap in parallel with a power supply across the plug but no cap discharge on the primary of the ignition coil. If he is getting some results with that motorcycle like in the video of it kinda running off and on...he might just make it if he has capacitive discharge into the primary from a different supply.

I like his method of bypassing the magneto on that and using a pickup coil to make the timing right.

[Capacitor70]

Interestingly enough, Capacitor70 has been utilizing this additional spark gap approach in his latest circuit, combined with three high voltage capacitors in the picofarad range, to intensify voltage delivered to a step-up transformer with a turns ratio of 12p:32s. He has been getting great plasma arcs in open air tests, and also on the waste spark cycle of his engine, but no spark under compression.

Today I have taken more test on coil circuit.
Modified coil circuit have 8 turns primary and 24 Turns secondary,5 capacitor
of 4200pf 2000V (total 10Kv). Ferrite core, any shape.
Actually coil circuit works under compression, Problem is due to common ground and coil design, proper design of coil works at any condition. Please do not mention coil circuit is not good, I have taken only one trial on engine with coil circuit, I can not conclude anything....
Coil based circuit performs much better than diode, and simple to design, Coil based circuit enables many ways of discharging capacitor, At a time single capacitor can fire two spark plug with this circuit, for multiple cylinder engine.

While making of coil take care of insulation for secondary, primary can be bare copper wire or simple magnet wire, for secondary use good quality insulation and amp rating wire,

Plasma have zero resistance use this property to charge other capacitor to take back energy or use WFC cell to make hydrogen instead of 200W bulbs used in my design.

It is not possible for me to kick the engine alone, I have to wait for friends to come to home, so I am not taking trials on engine ...

Is it really possible to make plasma blast using 12V s1r9'a design? I have tried my coil circuit but below 50V it dosen't works, at 315V capacitor stays charged at 50V after plasma blast,

If you change the spark gap it makes much much difference in explosion, at very small gap blast is poof and at 2 mm gap its very very loud.

Any one tried plasma spark plug with hydrogen ?

What Stan Mayer fuel injector do ? See this diagram


If you carefully listen to the words of Stan Mayer about water fuel injector....

[rickoff]

Reply to Capacitor 70

Hi there!

It's great to see you here in this thread, and get an update on your experimentation. Sorry about the statement that you had no spark when under compression - that was something that someone on overunity.com had said occurred in a replication of your circuit. I realize that you actually did get some sparking during the compression stroke, and that the engine did start, but that the compression effect seemed to hinder development of the plasma arc to some degree. I fully agree with you that a coil transformer circuit like yours will prove to be quite useful, and that you will probably be able to achieve success with only minor modifications to your current design. Yes, the plasma effect can be achieved at low voltages, and Aaron has demonstrated that by dropping the low voltage side down to below 15 volts, and even disconnecting it. The higher voltages do provide for better enhancement, as witnessed by Aaron and Peter Lindemann when using a variac attached to a step-up transformer from a microwave oven. They went up to 1,000 volts in a bench test. But of course it would be far preferable to achieve the desired final result using the least voltage really necessary at the LV side of the circuit. I agree with Aaron that you will most likely see substantial gains in your circuitry if you utilize a capacitive dicharge into the ignition coil primary from a different power supply. If you haven't already seen Aaron's spark amplification method, using capacitors, please check out his video demonstration at: YouTube - Aaron's Water Spark Plug Amplifier You can also see a clean copy of his circuit diagram here:
Aaron water sparkplug amplifier.jpg - Windows Live SkyDrive

Employment of this technique to your current circuit may well be enough to overcome the problem caused after the compression stroke. Note also, in the video, how Aaron talks about the "slamming" action of the diode placed at the HV/LV intersection, and how this causes a compressive effect upon the HV, with a resulting explosive release of the HV back to ground across the spark plug gap. I really believe that use of these two principles (capacitive discharge into ignition coil primary, and slamming effect of diode at HV/LV intersection) could be all that you need at this point. I would love to see you succeed with the coil circuit, and I think you are just a couple of small steps away at this point. Please don't hesitate to call on any of us here for assistance or suggestions. It is truly an honor to have you participating in our forum discussion, and we fully support your research and development project.

Yes, we have been seriously considering an implementation using the water spark technique combined with HHO as perhaps being the ultimate means of powering an ICE under varying conditions, and Rosco is about to do some tests of that principle using his pressurized spark testing bell. I hope you keep coming back often to see what's new here, and to inform us of your actual or proposed changes, and progress that you are making.

Thanks, Cap, and best wishes to you,

Rick

[rickoff]

Kiker 5 -turn spark tube vs S1r 5-turn coil -final word

Hi everyone,

As I pointed out earlier, the Kiker 5-turn coil on their spark tube and the 5-turn main coil on S1r's "transformer," while appearing similar, are actually two totally different animals. During multiple tests of the Kiker spark tubes on various engines, which all had positive and impressive results, a solid wire duplicate of the spark tube configuration was also tested with no positive result whatever. So the tubing wins hands down over the solid wire.

The tests might have shown that the S1r coil was capable of producing a small but beneficial effect if the engine timing had been readjusted to account for spark retardation, and that would be realized as a spark of lengthened duration. The Kiker spark tubes also produce a prolonged spark, but the high efficiency and near zero resistance of the Kiker spark tubes makes timing changes unnecessary to produce positive results. Some further tweaking, though, may produce even better results after installing Kiker spark tubes, as Rosco points out. See the Kiker thread for further details. If you are interested in replicating the Kiker spark tube, or battery cable tube for personal testing and experimentation, please see my #9 post in the Harvey Kiker thread for details about proper construction methods as related to the patent designs. See that here: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...html#post24594

Note that you can not make and distribute these items to others, as they do have full patent protection. Aside from initial experimentation to prove to yourself that the Kiker products really do enhance spark production and battery power transmission, your best option is to purchase the products in a configuration that is made by Harvey Kiker to assure yourself of the best possible results using his latest innovations and enhancements. Harvey is constantly seeking improvements to his already remarkable products, and is currently doing research on a device that he says appears to have "amazing" potential. See more about his available products at: Better Fuel Mileage

For any futher discussion or postings concerning Kiker products, please visit the Harvey Kiker thread in the Renewable Energy discussion group.

Thanks, and best regards to all,

Rick

[Jules Tresor]

full details about S1R coils

Hi,
I think this post from S1R on his yahoogroup Waterfuel1978 explains very well how works his coils setup.

quote
Message #6934 Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:18 am by "s1r9a9m9"

Re: Someone, please please please answer this question for me about S1R's coils....


Ok, I'll try again and start from the begaining.

The relays on the Elcamino have two coils in them, I have no idea of how the relays were working to make the engine run, well maybe some idea or else I would not have used them. The coil that is now being talked about was from the videos I posted on youtube.
The people that have been helping me on this project had figured out that the 2 coils in the relay was the factor in the engine running. so they tryed to replacate the actions of the relay coils and came across the single coil with three windings in it. the new coil is wound so that one winding is slowing down the HV current and the long winding is feeding the HV current more amps to boost the spark to the plug.
The new coil is between the distrubitor cap and the sprak plug as the placement on the plug wire it self would be.
The new coil system dose not need the inverter to boost the power on the new coil. A hot 12 volt power draw through the coil will keep it charged at all times. I am working on a means to find a common hot wire that will be usful on all vehicles to use for this power through the coil.

Dose this answer the question you had.

I was not sure how to answer it any other way.

S1R.
end of quote

So the inverter is not used on the videos, and it's just 12V supplied to coils
MDG

[rickoff]

Reply to Stephen

Sorry Stephen,

I have read every post that S1r has made concerning his YouTube engine demonstrations, and the construction and usage of the "transformer" coils. I have also built and tested the "transformer," and it does not do what S1r claims. S1r's explanation may sound somewhat logical, but it just doesn't add up when examined closely. If you go back to post #39 and read all of that carefully, and compare each point with S1r's videos, you will see that there is no possible way that the "transformer" could have worked if hooked up as S1r states. I say that because there was no 12 volt feed to the long, 13-turn coil. The only wire, entering the tin container, which could possibly have been connected to the long coil was from the inverter, which wasn't even connected to the battery. That should have been the +12 volts connection, as he states it, but no - the long coil had no such battery input. Furthermore, even if there had been a 12 volt input, it still could not have worked because there was no connection whatsoever at the end of the 7-turn coil, which S1r said should pass through a constant current source such as a fog light, and then to the base of the spark plug. That connection doesn't exist in the video, and would have required 4 wires into the tin container. There is a wire conected to the plug base, but it is the second wire from the inverter - it is not from the tin container. As I mentioned in post #39, and as you have mentioned again, and as S1r has admitted - the inverter was not connected, so it did nothing. I studied the video frame by frame, and am quite certain that what I am telling you is factual. I am not saying that the video was a hoax, because it is possible that S1r could have introduced anywhere from 10 to 50 amps of DC current from the battery charger, through some diodes, to the tip of the spark plug. That would explain the black "mystery wire," connected to the plug tip, which cannot be traced back to a visible connection because it fades from sight after trailing to the ground and through the grass which obscures it.

Hopefully, S1r will offer up a full and factual disclosure on August 10, when (and if) he releases the documentation that he has promised. I hope so.

Sorry if this disappoints you, but these are the facts as I see them. If you see something in the videos that I have missed, or if you can show that any points I made in post #39 are incorrect, then by all means please do inform me, and please document the full details of your findings. Thank you, Stephen, and I hope my reply has been informative and useful to you.

Best regards, Rick

[boxley55]

possibly try using the 12 volt supply being fed thru the contacts. A collapsing field maybe? I posed the question on waterfuel1978 and it was removed the same day? No reply from Sir...Just removed.

Bruce

[rickoff]

Reply to Bruce

Hi Bruce,

I'm unsure as to what "contacts" you are actually referring to. Could you be more specific, please? A labeled diagram would be helpful.

I'm not surprised that you haven't received a reply from S1r. He hasn't said much of anything lately, except to rebuke or remove some members at his forum site. Everyone is waiting for the documentation that he promised to post around August 10, but that hasn't happened yet. One of the forum members, Jeff Boven, went this weekend to visit S1r in hopes of creating a new and more illustrative video of the B&S engine running on water, but evidently the attempt failed. S1r's explanation of the failure appears in Message #8418 at waterfuel1978. See it here: Yahoo! Groups

Thanks,

Rick

[jibbguy]

woodchuck sappers in the wire!

Sounds like some1 accidentally turned S1r's engine on it's side or upside down... I remember swearing up a storm one hot summer day years ago with the grass ankle-high and an 8-horse B&S lawn tractor engine similarly screwed-up from being flipped-over (those darn commie woodchucks and their Viet Cong tunnel systems!! lol).

If this is the case, it shouldn't require tearing it down; just draining out the oil and anything in the cylinder head. He really should consider mounting the thing on a 1" thick 3'x3' plywood for stability and safety.

[boxley55]

Hi Rick,
What I meant by the contacts was that possibly S1R was using the magneto as some sort of on off switch (relay) for the 12 volt supply line in his knew coil design. Possibly creating a collapsing field transferring the energy into the wire going to the Spark plug. I have a mechanical background not electrical, so my apologies if this sounds way off. It sort of sounds like the missing link though.
Bruce