MIT Engineers Approaching 100% Efficiency with New Catalyst for Electrolysis

[gunfighter]

EETimes.com - MIT claims 24/7 solar power

[jibbguy]

The solar-powered red herring factory

This is an interesting "slant" that we see a lot of lately: linking another alternative energy technology to Solar... Maybe because the solar is "accepted" and thus the new source has a better chance of "sneaking through" into the mainstream hiding behind the unnecessary solar aspect?

And also notice how it's always gotta be about storing the Hydrogen, instead using it of on demand. They said the same kinda things about their Plasmatron project; and that's cracking hydrocarbon fuel! Lol it makes no sense to compress and store H like that when you could just burn it at safe low pressures on demand.

But if that's what they gotta say to get grant money, then God Bless 'em

[Dingus]

I was just about to start a topic on this when I noticed yours. I got it from a different (I think better explaining) website. Fuel cell improvements raise hopes for clean, cheap energy

If we were to somehow cheaply make these, they'd be useful for smacks-booster

[rickoff]

Re:Cobalt Phosphate as catalyst

Hi folks,

Just to interject a thought - Cobalt Phosphate may not be suited for use with hydroxy boosters used with ICE applications. Cobalt Phosphate is made by combining cobalt with disodium phosphate, and disodium phosphate is a sodium salt of phosphoric acid. Sodium, of course, is the chief ingredient in Morton table salt. It is well known that sodium is a good catalyst for HHO generation, and we know from the Kanzius experiments that salt water will burn with a 3,000 degree flame. It is somewhat inevitable that, in an ICE application, some sodium will escape in water vapors that are drawn into the combustion chambers, and that isn't good. Aside from the corrosive factor, you would have the more heat intensive burn of the Kanzius effect as mentioned above (to some extent). If there is a way to ensure entrapment of all sodium, to prevent it from entering the engine (and there probably is some way), then it would be desirable to use cobalt phosphate. For use in a household use hydroxy generator, cobalt phosphate would definitely be the ideal catalyst.

Any ideas on eliminating the sodium introduction threat for ICE use? The most effective way to desalinate water, or water vapor, is by using reverse osmosis, but that requires substantial pressure (30 psi to 600 psi, depending upon the salt levels) through a semipermeable membrane. Perhaps the 30 psi pressure level might be enough. The HHO booster, when operating, certainly produces some pressure, and this is assisted by suction at the engine's intake manifold. Would the combined effect be enough that a simple RO membrane filter could be utilized? Hmmm-----

Some food for thought from Rickoff

[wpage]

MIT yes

That is a positive and interesting report from EE media...

Many belive the ultimate solutions to energy will be like this using multiple alternate energy powers combined to achieve results. Solar power limited to the day and hydrogen needed help for extraction from water is a great example.
If MIT which has a outstanding engineering record with breakthroughs on the internet (Sorry Mr Gore) is near 100% efficiency. This means that soon at least one formula is complete.
I would bet that someone else will partner wind as a substitute for this same/similar process. Wind being a day process as well with hydroxy filling in at nite. 100% efficiency may be location defined to some extent on thse natural resourses. Southwest US for sun and coastal regions for wind.
It is good to know that some of the best minds are working diligently on these problems as well as you and others...

W

[gmeat]

Hi Everybody,


This is a Very interesting thread.It sounds similar to what Aaron was doing with regards to conditioning his SS tubes in one of his earlier videos.I noticed in the 1st link above that they talk about having developed a "Green" catalyst for the electrolyzer .Does this mean Green as in the color spectrum,Or does it mean green as in environmentally friendly green.I only ask this because I've noticed the greenish color of the water in the electrolyzer in Stan Meyers video where he's running his car with the big electrolyzer sitting next to it (I feel like an idiot even asking this question but nothing ventured nothing gained lol).Heres 2 links I came accross United for Peace of Pierce County, WA - We nonviolently oppose the reliance on unilateral military actions rather than cooperative diplomacy..

BBC NEWS | Technology | Green pigment spins chip promise
Hopefully something good will come from this research.


-Gary

[rickoff]

Re: The meaning of "green:

I noticed in the 1st link above that they talk about having developed a "Green" catalyst for the electrolyzer .Does this mean Green as in the color spectrum,Or does it mean green as in environmentally friendly green? -Gary

Hi Gary,

It means environmentally friendly, as the catalyst is non-toxic. Cobalt is actually the basis of vitamin B-12. The disodium phosphate, of the cobalt phosphate mix, is a water soluble white powder compound that is actually used widely in the food industry as an anti-caking agent. That helps pancake mix, for example, to more rapidly combine with water, thus reducing lumping and stirring time required. Cobalt does have a tendency to impart a bluish color, such as when used to produce the deep blue cobalt glassware that you often see at antique shops, and some grades of cobalt phosphate will range from blue to purple, depending on the temperature applied.

No question is silly, Gary - only the one's that aren't asked.

Best wishes, Rick

[Dingus]

In the articles I've read, it sounds like the catalyst is potassium phosphate and cobalt oxide, and that it doesn't use disodium phosphate, because they all keep referring to the catalyst as "Cobalt and Phosphate" and the article I read: "http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080731-fuel-cell-improvements-raise-hopes-for-clean-cheap-energy.html" said that is uses potassium phosphate. Although I'm not exactly an expert on catalysts, so I may be reading too much into it.

Also, in another article it said that the Phosphate-to-Cobalt ratio was about 1:2 respectively. Still need to find out how much of that catalyst to quantity of water.

[rickoff]

Reply to Dingus

Hi Dingus,

The MIT article didn't mention the actual formulation they were using, and I didn't see it mentioned in any of several science articles that I looked at before entering my post. There are many cobalt phosphate formulations possible, and some would work better than others. From reading about the experiments, I noticed three factors that lead me to believe they were likely using disodium phosphate rather than potassium phosphate.
1. The compound used is highly water soluble, and that is a particularly strong point for disodium phosphate.
2. The catalyst works in hydrolysis at room temperature, and in water that is neither acidic nor alkaline. I would never have guessed that they might be using potassium phosphate, because potassium is highly alkaline, and produces potassium hydroxide (KOH) when introduced to water. Sodium is also reactive in water, but less reactive than potassium.
3. It was stated that the cobalt phosphate catalyst actually increases Oxygen production, rather than Hydrogen. Potassium can react violently with water to evolve Hydrogen, and is likely to ignite the Hydrogen unless used in very small proportions, as we do in HHO boosters. Another metal (platinum, I believe) was used as the Hydrogen catalyst in the MIT experiments. Platinum, as you know, is wicked expensive, and I doubt that any of us will be using it in our home-built HHO boosters. It's fine for use when you have well endowed research grants like MIT, but us regular folks can only dream about that kind of stuff - unless we are independently wealthy or win a lottery. Platinum sells for about $2,000 per troy ounce!

Now it is possible that they did use potassium in their catalyst compound, but the highly reactive and alkaline nature of potassium would seem to negate their claim of using a safe and environmentally friendly catalyst. As you probably know, potassium hydroxide can burn holes in your clothing and cause skin burns if any splatters on you. Then again, maybe the actual potassium concentration (if any) is a miniscule amount, and it seems it would have to be if MIT's claims are true. So the article you read may be correct if they have some reliable inside information. Are you thinking of doing any experimentation along the lines of the MIT approach, Dingus? If so, you might be able to salvage some platinum from old catalytic converters. I have heard that CC theft is on the increase, and with the price of platinum being what it is, I guess that makes sense.

Incidentally, the MIT idea of using solar cells to power hydrolyzers, and storing the Hydrogen for later use, is not by any means a new idea. You need metal hydride storage tanks to do that safely, though, and these too are relatively expensive.

Best regards to you Dingus,

Rick

[Dingus]

Thanks for clearing that one up. It slipped my mind that potassium reacts violently in water.

Also, according to Wired the Polaris venture capital firm is filing for the patent.

[rickoff]

Re: patent

Hi Dingus,

I'm not surprised that these venture capitalists are swooping in to claim the patent rights, and eventually they may stand to make a great deal of money from the process rights. It appears that widespread use of this technique won't be happening for perhaps a decade or so, until researchers can both improve the process and reduce the cost factor sufficiently enough to make it really practical. So, while being very interesting, it appears that our short term goals are better focused on alternative techniques and energies. What projects are you currently working on, or leaning towards?

Best, Rick

[synaptic]

The article is cheap

Just thought I'd mention that you can buy the article from Science for $10. This would alleviate all the speculation I've seen in this thread. There is a supplemental online PDF with materials and methods and some videos (which I didn't find all that impressive). It's hard to visualize efficiency.

Basically, you add cobalt nitrate to a 0.1M potassium phosphate solution (KPi electrolyte @ 7pH). After about 8 hours of electrolysis, it appears a cobalt phosphate or cobalt oxide thin layer forms on the electrode. The article goes into all the methods they used to validate the results but the actual process seems fairly straightforward. You still need platinum for the hydrogen.

Any Co+2 ionic compound seems to work. He tried Cobaltous Nitrate, Cobaltous Sulfate, and another I forget with identical results. I looked around and the Aldrich/Sigma prices were outrageous. I found 100g of technical grade Co(NO3)2 from fisher for $12 shipped so I went ahead and ordered some.

I remember reading an article a while back about Cuprous Oxide being a water photocatalyst. I'm not sure how to cite but here is the relevant information:

Title: Cu2O as a photocatalyst for overall water splitting under visible light irradiation
Authors: Michikazu Hara, Takeshi Kondo, Mutsuko Komoda, Sigeru Ikeda, Kiyoaki Shinohara, Akira Tanaka, Junko N. Kondoa and Kazunari Domen
Org: Research Laboratory of Resources Utilization, Tokyo Institute of Technology, 4259 Nagatsuta, Midori-ku, Yokohama 226, Japan
Org: Nikon Corp., 1-10-1 Azamizodai, Sagamihara 228, Japan
Abstract: Photocatalytic decomposition of water into H2 and O2 on Cu2O under visible light irradiation is investigated; the photocatalytic water splitting on Cu2O powder proceeds without any noticeable decrease in the activity for more than 1900 h.
Journal: Chem. Commun., vol/issue unknown, 1998, pp357-358

I'd like to see a practical use of the cobalt thin-layer electrocatalyst. Perhaps the answer is combining something like this cuprous oxide (or maybe several photoelectric substances, say TiO2) with the cobalt. Using a photovoltaic cell is probably not the answer, as far as I can see.

I think we also need to make the reverse reaction efficient. Can this Co+2 electrocatalyst work in reverse, i.e. a fuel cell? That would increase the efficiency of the entire cycle.

I think we're getting closer to that eureka moment. Perhaps the magical substance(s) have already been discovered and no one has recognized the significance of the effects.

[synaptic]

Platinum, phosphate, storage

Hi Dingus,
Platinum sells for about $2,000 per troy ounce!

Good thing we don't need an ounce of it!

Now it is possible that they did use potassium in their catalyst compound, but the highly reactive and alkaline nature of potassium would seem to negate their claim of using a safe and environmentally friendly catalyst.

Nah, they just created a standard buffer solution. The phosphate ion seems to be important though.

Are you thinking of doing any experimentation along the lines of the MIT approach, Dingus? If so, you might be able to salvage some platinum from old catalytic converters. I have heard that CC theft is on the increase, and with the price of platinum being what it is, I guess that makes sense.

Platinum wire is commonly available on eBay. I bought ~10cm for $10. It's 45 gauge but it'll work. I see an inch of 26 gauge 99.9% platinum wire listed currently for the buy it now price of $17.85.

I found this Hoffman apparatus for $120 w/stand and clamps ( $95 otherwise ) that comes with a set of platinum and a set of carbon electrodes. This looks like the ideal route for me.

United Nuclear - Laboratory Glassware

There are also some alternatives to platinum listed on wikipedia. Not too sure about how well those would work in practice.

You need metal hydride storage tanks to do that safely, though, and these too are relatively expensive.

Do you have any idea how expensive? I'm a bit naive in this department though I'm aware that hydrides can store hydrogen.

[Dingus]

So, while being very interesting, it appears that our short term goals are better focused on alternative techniques and energies. What projects are you currently working on, or leaning towards?

I wasn't exactly working on anything yet, but I was thinking about the possibility of using it in a smacks booster for my car, but I keep finding more and more reasons not to.

I still need to get back to making my Bedini motor. I keep breaking wires, and other things keep stealing my time, that and I keep forgetting to do it.

[rickoff]

Reply to Synaptic

Looks like you made some possibly good finds on the supplies. Like you say, and as I said before, nearly any water soluble cobalt + compound is going to do the trick. The cobalt does cause a dark coating to appear, and this is what evidently causes the Oxygen release to speed up. As soon as the electrolysis stops, the cobalt evidently dislodges and settles back into the water, but then promptly reattaches when power is reconnected. It seems that only the first attraction is a somewhat gradual process. Dissociating the Oxygen more quickly from the H20, of course, means that you will end up with the same amount of Hydrogen from the volume of H20 dissociated, but you reach the end result faster. And with the addition of the platinum catalyst, you can produce even more Hydrogen, in a given amount of time, from a greater volume of H20. Thus the combined processes can probably achieve a very significant increase in either separated Hydrogen, or HHO.

About the metal hydride storage tanks: You mentioned United Nuclear, and that would be a good place to look at some excellent storage tanks. They just moved recently, and were preparing to distribute tanks and other items (even complete systems for an automobile to operate on 100% Hydrogen, for around $5,000). Their system uses solar panels to drive a commercial type Hydrogen generator, so once you recover your initial investment the Hydrogen fuel is free. They have driven a Corvette for several years now with a range of 350 miles on 4 of their standard size tanks, which are not much longer than a handheld propane torch cylinder, but larger in diameter because of insulation and heating coils. A larger capacity tank has now been developed for extending range, and certainly that would be more expensive than the standard size. See the Corvette about half way down this page: United Nuclear - Hydrogen Fuel Systems They were ready to begin sales of their system years ago, but government red tape tied them up and forced a long and costly legal battle (supposedly over safety issues of stored Hydrogen), despite the fact that they were able to demonstrate that an incendiary bullet fired directly through a storage tank only produced a slight smolder. So much, much safer than a gasoline tank in a collision. Just another example of technology suppression for you!

Dingus - Might pay to wait and see how Synaptic does in his experiment after he receives his supplies. If it works out well, then by all means go for it, but be sure to use just distilled water with the cobalt + compound, and no KOH added.

Best to all, Rick